JUNE WRESTLING DISCUSSION

[JohnnyJ]

I know it sounds like hyperbole at this point but in the last five years you can count on one hand how many acts/performers WWE has booked properly. So it gets annoying when people start talking about who stinks or who is boring. More often than not the perception of the performer is clouded due to crummy booking.

Yes, it's comical now that Miz main evented Mania. Cept the ratings were good during his reign and he was pretty over. How much can you blame him for being jobbed out and pushed down the card.

Yes, ADR comes out weekly to almost zero reaction. But he's not the one who decided to hotshot the title on him and put him in the middle of the most important feud (punk/Cena) in a decade then gradually demote/job him out because he wasn't ready for the spot he was given.

After a while it just sounds like excuses but you can only do the best you can with what you are given.

If Reigns, Rollins, or Ambrose were treated like Ryder they would be a punchline on this board.

[Ziggy]

I know the ECW doc is the highest selling WWE DVD but that World Class doc was so well done. The fist time I watched it in '07 it made me want to seek out footage and made me feel like I was familiar with it once I saw a show. World Class is definitely on of my favorite things on the network

[JohnnyJ]

I caught the World Class doc on the Network last week. Definitely made me feel like there was all sorts of great stuff I hadn't seen.

[Raziel]

"Ryder was shitty in the ring and that's what killed his push" is a fucking ridiculous talking point referencing a company that gave the Great Fucking Kahli a World Title run.

[kafkonia]

All I know is I see people saying Ryder is boring and Del Rio is entertaining and I start to worry if I hit my head and don't remember it.

[Ziggy]

Him being shitty shouldn't matter if he was getting a reaction and moving merch.  Kevin Nash was champ for a year, lost money for the company, AND had shitty matches.  Ryder is held to a higher standard?

I'll defend Nash because The Super Cena type baby push didn't suit him plus he was matched against heels that could lead him to a good match and ofcoarse the indecisive finish his first PPV defense. When he turned into that cool type babyface after he dropped the strap to Bret that was what he shouldve be wholetime

[Niners Fan in CT]

Some of you guys need to accept that there are going to be differing opinions on wrasslin and that does not equal someone "trolling".. Example:  When I watched most CM Punk matches I saw a guy who had terrible sloppy offense and didn't look like someone who could kick John Cena or really anyone's ass. He was a tremendous talker but as an in-ring performer I didn't SEE what made him great.. That's not trolling..  

[mattdangerously]

"Ryder was shitty in the ring and that's what killed his push" is a fucking ridiculous talking point referencing a company that gave the Great Fucking Kahli a World Title run.

You really don't see the difference between the two? No idea why the 7 foot monster might get a more sustained push than the guy working the comedy gimmick?

[caley]

Some performers are just limited. No matter how hard they work to reach their ceiling, that ceiling is still lower than others, for any number of reasons. We can debate the semantics of "fair shake" and the like, but it's a fact that Ryder got to be featured in major segments with main event stars, and in all of those segments, whether it be the Kane/Cena stuff or opening the show with Punk and Bryan, he looked lost and like a second rate performer. For whatever reason, the charisma he showed on his youtube show did not translate when he was on Raw. To me, that says he has a clear understanding of who his character is, and he worked hard to write material that would work within the confines of that character. When it came time for others to write his character on to TV in a more major way (and thereby have to change and grow organically, because no TV writer is ever going to understand your intellectual property as well as you), he faltered. He was unable to figure out how to speak to a larger audience using someone else's words. Regardless of other performers' shortcomings, basically everyone who has found themselves getting sustained success in wrestling have been able to change their character over the course of time to fit other people's ideas and input. 

 

I also don't think Ryder helped his case by being a brat publicly when things didn't go his way. It's one thing to complain behind closed doors and reach out to management about what you can do to improve and get what you want out of your job. It's another entirely to bitch and moan constantly over social media in the most passive aggressive way humanly possible. That would get you a bad reputation in any office job, let alone a business founded on secrecy and guarding your persona closely. 

 

In my mind, Ryder is really not different than Colt Cabana, who is constantly talking about how the people who don't book him don't understand the Colt Cabana character. If that is the case with so many different people in your chosen profession, then the problem lies not with them, but with the character that you have created. After a while, they both changed their characters from what made them approachable in the first place and in to an extension of their own frustration and bitterness at their own perceived lack of success. 

This post is being woefully undersold and is probably the truest thing in the thread.

 

 

 

The dude was boring.  BORING. He just did the same damn thing over and over.  Why would the crowd be interested?

So you were just exhausted of him within 3 Raws after he won the US title? 

 

You're aware he played the same character with the same matches for the better part of a year on ECW, right?  He was doing the "Woo woo woo" back in May 2009.  And after the whole Youtube series he was STILL doing the same thing.  And from mid-Summer through to the Cena stuff in November he was used fairly frequently on TV (The assistant GM stuff, some US title matches, the Hugh Jackman deal) and it was the same thing.  I mean, how long do I have to watch someone to decide that he's boring?  Do I have to wait until he has a weekly series of 60 minute Iron Man matches?

 

Him being shitty shouldn't matter if he was getting a reaction and moving merch.  Kevin Nash was champ for a year, lost money for the company, AND had shitty matches.  Ryder is held to a higher standard?

That was, what, nineteen years ago?  It was also during the "I'm Vince McMahon and what I say goes" opinion prevailed which was later reversed somewhat, around the time Brian Pillman died (Referenced in Foley's book where he said Vince talked to the wrestlers and felt like what he thought worked maybe didn't work anymore and started to seek wrestlers' input into storylines and characters).

 

"Ryder was shitty in the ring and that's what killed his push" is a fucking ridiculous talking point referencing a company that gave the Great Fucking Kahli a World Title run.

There's a difference between 7 foot tall scary dude who can't work and average-sized goofy dude who is mediocre.  I mean, Undertaker wasn't that good early on, but he was a big scary dude who knew his character which saved him until he figured it out.  Ultimate Warrior wasn't good but he was a jacked-up dude who had a particular physical charisma.  I always felt like a crowd was hot for Ryder when he came out and talked, but got progressively less interested in him as soon as the bell rang because he doesn't DO anything.

[Cristobal]

Some of you guys need to accept that there are going to be differing opinions on wrasslin and that does not equal someone "trolling".. Example:  When I watched most CM Punk matches I saw a guy who had terrible sloppy offense and didn't look like someone who could kick John Cena or really anyone's ass. He was a tremendous talker but as an in-ring performer I didn't SEE what made him great.. That's not trolling..

No, but if someone told you Punk didn't get a real push, that would be, because the guy had the top belt for over a year. Quite obviously he got a chance to succeed. (And I DO like Punk, but I don't think his championship run was particularly successful.)

Having your own opinion =/= attempting to have your own facts.

[hammerva]

Finally got the NWA Anarchy TV show that is suppose to show at this time slot on my cable access show.   The last time I watched them they were Wildside and that might have been a decade ago.   And then they showed Jeff G Bailey with Iceberg and I couldn't have been more happier.   Wrestling is still alive when that crazy psycho manager is still working 

 

Also find it funny that there is a team called the Washington Bullets.   I can't believe they haven't tried getting work in the Maryland area with that name  

[cool arrow]

Apropos of nothing in particular, Terry (Garvin) Simms posted this on his Facebook, and I wanted to share it here because there isn't a lot of footage of Danny Hodge doing the pro wrestling.

 

http://youtu.be/ZHDZS2rGw_A

[Ziggy]

Some of you guys need to accept that there are going to be differing opinions on wrasslin and that does not equal someone "trolling".. Example:  When I watched most CM Punk matches I saw a guy who had terrible sloppy offense and didn't look like someone who could kick John Cena or really anyone's ass. He was a tremendous talker but as an in-ring performer I didn't SEE what made him great.. That's not trolling..  

I like Punk but I've always said his execution is sloppy so i can see that as a big turn off but with him being an indie guy he does come across as cookie cutter wich is why I've enjoyed him in WWE. He made it so far in WWE despite being the antithesis of what a WWE superstar is supposed to look like.

I think Punk is an example out one of those guys that is presented as being a way better wrestler than he is much like HHH. "The Best in the World was his moniker we were feed to buy into much like HHH being "the Game". Punks execution isnt the most crisp but I feel his overall body of work in the ring is or was far better than 95% of the roster.

This day and age you have guys with moves in the moveset than ever but guys just insist on doing the same spots every match and that kills me the most.

[username]

Mostly overlooked in the Ryder discussion is that it isn't that his quarter hours were poor; his quarter hours were terrible.  That few/several month period he was featured had his quarter hours do the worst of anyone on the show regardless of which quarter they put him in or who he was out there with.  Quarters with Cena, the most consistent ratings draw they had at the time for many years, were amazingly flat when he was out there with Ryder.  Without Ryder they were up several hundred thousand viewers.

 

Simply put the television audience rejected him to a severe, alarming degree.  They did not like him and they tuned out when he was featured to a degree unmatched during that few year period when I happened to catch the WON and hence said quarter hours.  Watching it in real time it was almost hilarious how bad he did in them to the degree I basically was wondering how long they could manage to keep him featured.  They figured it out rather quickly.

 

The funniest part is that the end of his push, which mainly consisted of Kane destroying him and ruining his life, had the few quarter hours that actually did well.  I think if there is an argument to be made that he was misused it was that a heel turn right around then (or more extensive beatings) may have actually had legs.

[Web Conn]

Am I the only one who like the Edgeheads?

[Go2Sleep]

Am I the only one who like the Edgeheads?

 

They were better than the Major Brothers.

[Sublime]

Oh good lord were the Major Brothers lame as hell. When they debuted I thought they'd be gone less than a year but somehow they both made it to 2014 and Ryder might make it even longer. I just looked it up they debuted on the main roster in 2007, I am shocked that the Major Brothers lasted 7 years on the WWE roster from what they were when they started. Vince must have forgotten about Hawkins being on the roster, "who the hell re-hired Brian Major?" "Sir he's been on the roster since 07 he goes by Curt Hawkins now" "HEEEEE'SSSS FIIIIIIIRRREEEEDD", and just hate Ryder so much that he wants to keep him around to humiliate him.

[CanadianChris]

Odds of Vince remembering Brian Major right now are 0%.

Odds he ever knew of Brian Major are slightly higher.

[mco543]

IIRC Vince did know who they were once they made TV, he's the reason they stopped being gimmicked as brothers; he thought it was stupid to bill them as brothers when they weren't.

[Phantom Lord]

IIRC Vince did know who they were once they made TV, he's the reason they stopped being gimmicked as brothers; he thought it was stupid to bill them as brothers when they weren't

 

 

Vince's really weird when it comes "character". On the one hand hes the type that will make someone stay in character 24/7 even if they are off the clock. (Nick Dinsmore aka Eugene had to be "special" all the time. Kane had to wear his mask all the time...never mind wearing his wrestling gear to his movie premiere). But on the other he'll be like "WELL DAMN IT, THEY'RE NOT REALLY BROTHERS". Arent Jerry and and Jimmy Valliant supposed to be two of his all time favorite wrestlers ever? Granted the Major Brothers were horrible...but it wouldnt be the first time two guys were billed as brothers who weren't.

[Greggulator]

On Ryder:

Can someone please tell me what's good about him? Honestly. What strengths does he bring to the table?

Okay, he clearly was over for a while. But HOW and WHY was he over? 

[Curt McGirt]

If you like the WWE World Class doc, it would do you good to see the Heroes of World Class doc. I just rewatched it again. You have Gart Hart breaking down the business and laying down the truth, David Manning trying to justify/"explain" a lot of the shit that went down, Kevin stating the grim truth from the start with saying his grandfather was a frontier-justice sheriff (which mine was as well, so I know how fucked-up a family that can make). It's pretty brutal but you also get Mickey Hart and Bill Mercer laying out how the history of wrestling was advanced by their innovations and of course the great footage.

[SirSmUgly]

Ricky Steamboat beating Ric Flair at Chi-Town Rumble is a direct result of J.J. Dillon leaving the NWA. Dillon would have had a plan to double-team Steamboat as soon as Tommy Young was knocked out. Hiro Matsuda just stood there and watched his guy get beat. 

[Lamp, broken circa 1988]

This is a general discussion thread, so, here's something general.

 

Friend of mine found that Force Choke Chokeslam gif and asked me "so at what point do you just pack up and go home on this hobby." We talked, and so here’s an analogy we made that makes sense if you play video games. Because he was all like "i never see you have enthusiasm" and I was all "I do, it's just really specific enthusiasm." Anyways.

 

WWE is major console developers. It’s really expensive. Sometimes it’s good, and sometimes they make infuriating decisions for no reason.

 

US Indies are smartphone games. I do not have a smartphone. I do not want a smartphone. I only kind of understand smartphones, but enough to know that I do not want a smartphone.

 

Mexico is the independent PC scene, full of really creative people doing wild shit because that’s their life’s goal. There’s a lot of legacy, but also a lot of people bursting out by being themselves and being different than everyone else. Basically, everything I fell in love with.

 

Japan is still Japan. Insular, kind of crazy looking, occasionally transcendent. A proud history but these days it’s mostly ignorable.

 

Japanese indies are Japanese phone games. What is… I don’t… just... make it stop. Go. Go enjoy it over there. It hurts my head too much.

[CanadianChris]

You don't have a smartphone? How is that even possible!?!