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The Viceland Wrestling Documentaries

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That would actually be quite impressive. To reverse pickpocket someone to put something in their pocket without them noticing it is difficult, but to put avoid the pockets altogether and plant a bag in someone's undies (while they're wearing them), that's fucking supervillain shit right there.

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Planted drugs from Mexico actually happened to Nosawa and Io. Plus it was another wrestler who did it.

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, ka-to said:

Planted drugs from Mexico actually happened to Nosawa and Io. Plus it was another wrestler who did it.

Didn't that get Nosawa booted from New Japan? I was actually just reading about that recently.

Edited by Nice Guy Eddie

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42 minutes ago, AxB said:

That would actually be quite impressive. To reverse pickpocket someone to put something in their pocket without them noticing it is difficult, but to put avoid the pockets altogether and plant a bag in someone's undies (while they're wearing them), that's fucking supervillain shit right there.

tumblr_lzlovxBpV41qarz7wo1_400.gif

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48 minutes ago, ka-to said:

Planted drugs from Mexico actually happened to Nosawa and Io. Plus it was another wrestler who did it.

Yoshitsune/Sugi

27 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Didn't that get Nosawa booted from New Japan? I was actually just reading about that recently.

He  was fired for stealing a taxi.

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I watched the episode last night and even though the story of the Von Erich's has been told many times, it was interesting to hear it from Kevin once again. Considering how this could have turned out, the fact he's living a great life now with his family and grandkids is truly the best part of all of this.

So according to Kevin, David was feeling sick before he left for Japan. But Fritz was all "you take a booking, you make it no matter what". 

I just know I feel sorry for their mother. Burying five children is a pain no one should imagine.

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the Von Erich episode was a great unintentional display of "reasons to live on Kauai"

my best wishes to the Viceland creators on the Israel-related DMs they'll get from Kevin Von Erich in the future

I could buy the concept that someone who was billed at under 240 despite being 6'8" could have some sort of legitimate stomach issues and it wouldn't automatically be hard drugs. Maybe more legal kinds of drugs. Also, did anybody really go all in on the "Brody flushed the drugs" rumors before the family narrative started going off the rails

how many steps do you think it took for someone from Montreal-era Vice to get the Viceland documentary people in touch with some very ethically questionable Montrealites for the Dino Bravo episode. Obviously not enough to accidentally get somebody arrested for murdering Bravo. 

also, what other topics are out there that really haven't been covered over and over? Tammy Sytch would probably be the most honest and bullshit filled hour possible (and that story really is a dark side of the ring sort of story) but it's Tammy Sytch and she might be busy with whatever legal problems she's having at the moment, and what's the process of getting WWF clips of somebody who got banned from WWE-funded rehab? Mass Transit has probably been covered a lot (or there really isn't much more to cover). Art Barr has an officially unknown death and the whole rape/sexual abuse thing.

It's sorta like Tales From The Tour Bus episodes. There's a lot of potential for repeating parts of one episode in another episode, and really only so much that can be done before touching back on elements of previous episodes.

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I presume they have a copy of the sleaze thread for future episodes. 

You have the 80s ring boy scandal (Paterson, garvin, phillips)  or other similar quid pro quo stories (Jim Wilson, Jim Barnett,...). 

There are all the Lawler incidents. 

The curse of the July 4th holiday.

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6 hours ago, odessasteps said:

The curse of the July 4th holiday.

Yeah, that was definitely a hiptoss not a bodyslam.

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On 5/5/2019 at 2:55 AM, Cobra Commander said:

the Von Erich episode was a great unintentional display of "reasons to live on Kauai"

The fact that Kevin is able to live like he does now despite all that happened is a minor miracle.  If he was still in Texas I can't imagine how things would have turned out but moving to Hawaii was the best thing to happen to him (aside from family events like having kids and such)

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Posted (edited)

The night David Schultz slapped John Stossel might be worthy of the Viceland treatment.

The Wendi Richter "Spider Lady" incident could also be worth a look, since it was the Montreal Screwjob a dozen years before the Montreal Screwjob.

Maybe it's me, but the two above incidents have never been discussed in great detail, outside of the occasional Dr. D appearance for a shoot interview or signing. Has Richter really discussed the Moolah incident at all in shoots or other forums?

(Also, given all the controversy over naming the women's battle royal for Moolah a few years back, would it be possible to attempt a doc on trying to separate fact from fiction about Moolah?)

 

If not shows devoted specifically to the above topics, perhaps something on the general theme of the launch of Vince's national expansion, focusing on certain events (Schultz slap, Moolah double-crossing Richter, rumors of rival promoters trying to cripple Hogan before the Sheik match or Mr. T prior to the WM1 main event).

 

 

 

 

Edited by colonial

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23 minutes ago, colonial said:

 

(Also, given all the controversy over naming the women's battle royal for Moolah a few years back, would it be possible to attempt a doc on trying to separate fact from fiction about Moolah?)

 

 

 

 

The final episode of Season 1 is a Fabulous Moolah episode, which I assume is going to attempt this. 

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Not a lot of meat on the bones of the Dr. D stuff. He was asked by Vince to protect the business, did so, and got fired. Is there much more to it?

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32 minutes ago, MORELOCK said:

Not a lot of meat on the bones of the Dr. D stuff. He was asked by Vince to protect the business, did so, and got fired. Is there much more to it?

I bet you could squeeze a lot of the story due to the fact that Dr. D was (probably still is) batshit crazy. He also got fired for trying to fight Mr. T so that he could hijack that angle and be put in the WMI main event.

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You can also have Dr. D telling bounty hunter stories. 

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Or you could go to Youtube and find Schultz  on Morton Downey jr. show and probably get all the Dr. D you'd ever need.

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If they really wanted to they could probably milk a full hour out of attempts in the 80s to "protect da biz" from mainstream media reports between the Dr. D/Stossel incident, the Hogan/Richard Belzer deal, and the one news station blindsiding Verne Gagne with video of their cameras picking up audio of Backlund and Zbyszko calling spots during their match.

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12 hours ago, MORELOCK said:

Not a lot of meat on the bones of the Dr. D stuff. He was asked by Vince to protect the business, did so, and got fired. Is there much more to it?

There is the idea that Vince set Shutlz up so he could fire him. Vince could not just fire him, since he was close to Hogan. But I don't know how you could fill a show with it. I always found it interesting that Shultz did a job to Antonio Inoki that night. He was completely boxed out of the Hogan/Piper stuff. So there was something up.

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On 5/5/2019 at 2:55 AM, Cobra Commander said:

also, what other topics are out there that really haven't been covered over and over? Tammy Sytch would probably be the most honest and bullshit filled hour possible (and that story really is a dark side of the ring sort of story) but it's Tammy Sytch and she might be busy with whatever legal problems she's having at the moment, and what's the process of getting WWF clips of somebody who got banned from WWE-funded rehab? Mass Transit has probably been covered a lot (or there really isn't much more to cover). Art Barr has an officially unknown death and the whole rape/sexual abuse thing.

Well, one thing about this series is that...just being covered over and over doesn't mean you can't necessarily do it. The Von Erichs story is a good example- there was two very good documentaries about the Von Erichs that were already made, and it didn't stop the Viceland documentary from being very good as well. 

One good plus for this series is that- even if a lot of these stories are well known by wrestling fans, non-fans have little to no idea about these incredible stories (so it's all new to the non-fan and most casual fans), and the quality of these documentaries are so good that even hardcore fans have huge benefits from it, even giving the hardcore fans answers to questions they had surrounding the story for a while (like, for example, how last week the producers disclosed about the Gino Hernandez documentary that they asked Hernandez's mother, flat-out, about the "Was Paul Boesch his biological father?" rumor that had been long-claimed.) 

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I think an episode about the Inoki/Ali fight would be great. 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/14/2019 at 2:12 AM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I just watched the Brody episode On Demand. It wasn't bad for only being 45 minutes, but something like this needs to be about two hours. I would love to see a longer doc on this.

 

On 4/23/2019 at 4:31 PM, grilledcheese said:

Also, I'm on board with everyone that is saying Abdullah is full of shit and Atlas and Mantell are the truthspeakers there. What a fucked situation.

Admittedly, I haven't seen the Highspots Brody doc and didn't get to see Atlas tell his side of what happened until I saw the Viceland piece (FWIW purposefully tried to avoid it for years as I thought I wouldn't have the stomach for it). However, after catching up and see all the docs that aired so far, some things stuck out in particular with the Brody one.

First off, listening to Meltzer talk about it with Jericho, I am not sure if this is editing for dramatic purposes or time reasons but there might be an inconsistency with Dutch. On the doc, Dutch makes it sound like he had this premonition that something bad might go down and just went outside the clear his head. However, Dave says Dutch went out of the locker room to inside the stadium to see what type of house they were doing for that card. Not saying that he couldn't do both, but if Dutch is telling the truth, wouldn't he let on to Brody that "hey, we both might want to head outside until the weird vibe dies down"? 

Second, (and maybe @El Boricua can elaborate on this) I wonder if they made an attempt to get a Puerto Rican wrestler who was there to participate in this doc specifically Savio. I watched Savio's retelling of what happened with Cornette around the anniversary last year and found it more chilling than anything on the doc besides seeing a lifeless Brody during that makeshift funeral and guttural sounds Atlas made to reenact the actual stabbing . I dunno if Savio has a rep for being a liar or whatnot, but his overall intensity and sincerity makes me believe he wasn't bulllshitting w/ Cornette. Also, according to Savio, a big reason why it took the ambulance awhile to come (besides people thinking it was some weird wrestling angle) is the closest ambulances were across town at a Menudo concert.

Third, it feels weird that they shoehorn all these reasons why Jose may have stabbed him at the beginning when by Meltzer and Savio's account, Jose, Victor Quinones, and Brody rode together on Friday night and there wasn't a problem. The doc makes it seem like this was some elaborate 10+ year long con from the mid 70s from a WWF tryout match where Bruiser took liberties on Jose. Plus, everyone knew Brody's troubled history with promoters, how he didn't do jobs, and was protective of his character especially knowing his last run would be in WWF (hopefully a giant payoff as the big bad for Hogan) or what would soon eventually be WCW. If Dave is right about Brody knowing when these things are about happen, Bruiser wouldn't go meet with Jose around the corner in the showers away from the view of the boys. If you know something is up, the last thing you would do is that especially with a guy who has his hand and lower half of his arm covered up with a towel like a waiter. Hence, why I am kinda nosy when it comes to Dutch saying he felt weird entering the locker room and then leaving.

Finally, if this was about Brody butting in on ownership of the company, why would it be that important especially if they have enough clout on the island to beat a murder rap that easily? If they can do that, they can just take Brody to court and find a way to finagle his stake away.

Edited by Elsalvajeloco

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6 hours ago, Loki said:

I think an episode about the Inoki/Ali fight would be great. 

If it were 1/4 as awesome as the book, they'd really have something.

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On 5/6/2019 at 1:51 PM, Execproducer said:

Or you could go to Youtube and find Schultz  on Morton Downey jr. show and probably get all the Dr. D you'd ever need.

probably could get a pretty good episode purely off of "things that were talked about when Vince, Meltzer, Bruno, Jim Wilson, Schultz, etc were going on Donahue/etc in 1992"

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6 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Admittedly, I haven't seen the Highspots Brody doc and didn't get to see Atlas tell his side of what happened until I saw the Viceland piece (FWIW purposefully tried to avoid it for years as I thought I wouldn't have the stomach for it). However, after catching up and see all the docs that aired so far, some things stuck out in particular with the Brody one.

There's a few things I wan to comment with regards to your post, so I'll divide it by parts. I'm actually coming to this topic from the opposite side of sorts, it's at least double digits the amount I've read or heard Tony Atlas give his account of what happened across different media throughout the years. So I'm familiar with the evolution of his account, what's been consistent and what's not stayed as consistent, while keeping in mind that consistent does not necessarily equal correct and that inconsistent does not necessarily equal incorrect. But Atlas has gone from someone not wanting to talk about it, to saying it was an argument that got out of hand, to implying it was a premeditated hit and each time it becomes more and more about how he's the only man standing up to the scum hive .

6 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

First off, listening to Meltzer talk about it with Jericho, I am not sure if this is editing for dramatic purposes or time reasons but there might be an inconsistency with Dutch. On the doc, Dutch makes it sound like he had this premonition that something bad might go down and just went outside the clear his head. However, Dave says Dutch went out of the locker room to inside the stadium to see what type of house they were doing for that card. Not saying that he couldn't do both, but if Dutch is telling the truth, wouldn't he let on to Brody that "hey, we both might want to head outside until the weird vibe dies down"?

Dutch is also someone that has had various opportunities to give his account across different media throughout the years and is also a case of some things being consistent and others not as much (again with the caveat that consistent doesn't necessarily equal correct and vice versa). On this point, Dutch has tended to be pretty consistent. He usually mentions feeling tension or getting that weird vibe when entering the locker room and because of that feeling not going away, he decides to go out and do something he usually did which was check on the crowd and see the size of the house. As Dutch usually tells it, the uneasy feeling led to him deciding to leave and do his usual ritual of checking the crowd at that moment. The question that arises is what was Brody doing at the time Dutch decided to check the crowd, was he still sitting with ducth or was he elsewhere engaged. What I find interesting is that it's very possible that Brody had already done the same thing that Dutch says he went to do, which is checking the size of the crowd. It's been said many times that Brody would do this and then go to the promoter to demand his money based on what he saw (the explanation usually given that he din;'t want to be shorted). Bobby Jaggers stated in one of his accounts (in one of the books written about Brody, I think i was the Maytsik one) that he actually saw Brody in the other dugout when Jaggers had gone out to look at the crowd, which suggests that Brody was probably doing the same thing. 

6 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Second, (and maybe @El Boricua can elaborate on this) I wonder if they made an attempt to get a Puerto Rican wrestler who was there to participate in this doc specifically Savio. I watched Savio's retelling of what happened with Cornette around the anniversary last year and found it more chilling than anything on the doc besides seeing a lifeless Brody during that makeshift funeral and guttural sounds Atlas made to reenact the actual stabbing . I dunno if Savio has a rep for being a liar or whatnot, but his overall intensity and sincerity makes me believe he wasn't bulllshitting w/ Cornette. Also, according to Savio, a big reason why it took the ambulance awhile to come (besides people thinking it was some weird wrestling angle) is the closest ambulances were across town at a Menudo concert.

In the episode they mention that they contacted or tried contacting Carlos Colon and Invader about participating and were declined. That was always going to be the case, Invader does not talk about the subject at all and Carlos also avoids the subject. I can understand why, for them it's an ugly episode in their lives and no matter what they say about it, people have already made up their minds about it and will just say everything they say is a lie (regardless of whether it is true or not). On Twitter I saw that the makers of the documentary were asked about not talking with Savio. They said it was because that when they filmed the interviews in 2017, the BTTT shoot that Savio did with Cornette had not yet been released so they didn't think of talking with Savio (not sure if they were even aware that he was there).

Savio is pretty much the only local who talks about the topic and has only really done so in the lengthier version he gives in more recent years. The interview with Cornette is not the first time he's talked about those details, there's at least two podcast interviews in English and one in Spanish that he has done in the past four years where he talks at length on this subject. In those accounts, Savio has been consistent in mentioning the Menudo concert taking place that same night in Coliseo Ruben Rodriguez. In fact, it's from his version of the events that this detail comes up. The reason that this becomes an issue with regards to the ambulance is that both Coliseo Ruben Rodriguez and Estadio Juan Ramon Loubriel (where the WWC show was being held) are right next to each other in the same sports complex. And I don't mean a block or two apart, I mean literally right next to each other. Take a look: https://mapasamerica.dices.net/puertorico/mapa.php?nombre=Estadio-Juan-Ramon-Loubriel&id=6062

You'll also see that anyone going to either event that night would have had to use the same access roads to enter the complex and parking lot area. So traffic would have been absolutely backed up and a nightmare to navigate particularly with the rabid fans looking to attend those events. When Savio brings up the Menudo concert hampering the ambulance arrival, what I understand  it to means is that the ambulance likely came from the main avenue entry which is on the Ruben Rodriguez side of the complex. So it would have had to try to get through a deadlocked road due to the people trying to get in and park, and without any room for cars in front to get out of the way and let it through.

One other detail that also hampers the ambulance getting there in a timely manner (which is also brought up by Savio and I can confirm is entirely correct) is that there was no 911 in Puerto Rico in 1988, so you either had to call an operator to connect you or try to find a number to call for help. It wouldn't be until 1993 or so that a law would be passed enacting 911 as an emergency number.

6 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Third, it feels weird that they shoehorn all these reasons why Jose may have stabbed him at the beginning when by Meltzer and Savio's account, Jose, Victor Quinones, and Brody rode together on Friday night and there wasn't a problem. The doc makes it seem like this was some elaborate 10+ year long con from the mid 70s from a WWF tryout match where Bruiser took liberties on Jose. Plus, everyone knew Brody's troubled history with promoters, how he didn't do jobs, and was protective of his character especially knowing his last run would be in WWF (hopefully a giant payoff as the big bad for Hogan) or what would soon eventually be WCW. If Dave is right about Brody knowing when these things are about happen, Bruiser wouldn't go meet with Jose around the corner in the showers away from the view of the boys. If you know something is up, the last thing you would do is that especially with a guy who has his hand and lower half of his arm covered up with a towel like a waiter. Hence, why I am kinda nosy when it comes to Dutch saying he felt weird entering the locker room and then leaving.

I've never bought into many of the so called explanations they try to peddle as the reasons for stabbing him (and man do they run the gamut), I actually think it's something more simple than all of these elaborate conspiracies.  Matt Farmer is someone who has talked with Barbara Goodish about the subject and he has said many times that she has said that there was no money owed from either party to the other. I would think she, more than anyone, would know what the reality of the money situation was. Yet people keep trying to peddle conspiracies based on money being owed. It has never made sense to me, based on everything said and written about Brody, that he would lend a promoter money. And it has never made sense to me, based on the issues and personalities involved, that Colon and Jovica would even consider selling Brody a piece of the company. The only way that you could even begin to push that angle is via Victor Quiñones trying to sell Brody the shares, and even then it would likely be Victor selling any shares he personally owned and not Monsoon's. Remember that Monsoon was the reason Brody was blackballed from the WWWF (likely in part due to Brody taking liberties with some of Monsoon's guys, one of which was Jose Gonzalez) and it would have been 'highly unlikely' that he'd help Brody buy into the promotion.

And I completely agree with your comment about it not making sense that Brody  would allow himself to be in that position if he was someone who usually knew what was up, especially when he was the cause for the tension in most of the cases. It doesn't really make sense that he would just follow someone hiding something in a towel. Well, unless If you've heard all the different accounts out there in English and Spanish (it helps to not listen just to Atlas and Dutch). There's one account in Spanish that may shed light with regards to this, and it also makes me doubt some of the commonly pushed details of what happened. I have my theory of what happened based on what makes sense from all of the accounts, but people will believe what they want to believe.

7 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Finally, if this was about Brody butting in on ownership of the company, why would it be that important especially if they have enough clout on the island to beat a murder rap that easily? If they can do that, they can just take Brody to court and find a way to finagle his stake away.

This is exactly why I don't buy into it being a premeditated hit. If you're going to the trouble of planning to kill someone, sending one of your top draws to do it in an enclosed room where there is only one way in and one way out while there are at least 12-to 15 potential witnesses right there sounds like the dumbest way to go about it. Especially if apparently they have all of this clout and mob ties. There's a lot of things or scenarios put forth that when you stop and think them through, it really sounds ridiculous to believe them. They know where Brody is staying, they're the ones picking him up and taking him back, he's on the island for two weeks and Monday and Tuesday are off days. You're going to tell me that having one of your top acts stab your target in the locker room shower with the only entrance and exit is to a room full of a dozen or so witnesses is the best plan you could come up with, when you have all of these alleged connections and ties and there better opportunities to have it done?

I've listened to or read a lot of accounts from various wrestlers about this and it's a mistake to just take anyone's account in a vacuum and at face value. There's a lot that doesn't add up either because they contradict each other or because they are speculating and making stuff up. I could run through all the different versions given by Atlas, Dutch and others and point the deals where I believe there stories don't pass a smell test. Calling back to one of the earlier points, I actually have my doubts about Invader and Brody riding together the previous days. Why? Watch this and let's see if you notice the same thing I do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p4-C2PF9dU

And just so you can see where I come by my cynical view with regards to the evolution of Atlas' account (or anyone else's), you can listen to the latest version of Tony's account. And again, there are things I believe Atlas on and others where I do not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpFvtKsKtG0

And there are already things he mentions in this version that I would believe and others that I question or just don't believe him on. Par for the course with these accounts.

 

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That was an awesome post dude.

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