El Boricua

Thanks Matt! Hopefully everyone enjoys what we've done so far and will continue to do with this series.

The fishing expedition story was amazing.

Wanted to mention that this past Wednesday the WWC was celebrated and honored by the Puerto Rico House of Representatives on the occasion of the company's 50 year anniversary. Not many wretling companies make the 50 year mark so a big congratulations to Victor Jovica, Carlos Colon and everyone else involved with the WWC. Also for anyone that may be interested, the WWC Aniversario 50 show is tonight at 8pm and will be available live on Fite.tv in both Spanish and English commentary. The event is dedicated to the founders and pillars of the company and to the fans of Puerto Rico.

It adds more context but doesn't actually contradict what Andrade said, it actually confirms what he said about Charlotte being called up and told she was pregnant (I mean, what is the implication of being told you're being medically suspended due to pregnancy). The detail Andrade mentions in the interview is that it was the doctor in charge of the doping tests who called Charlotte up to tell her this. It's also the same doctor that failed Andrade the year before which resulted in his suspension. Andrade questioned a bit whether there may have been a screw up last year with his test after going through this now with Charlotte.

Man, the Andrade interview being done by Hugo Savinovich is just amazing with the info being dropped.

Overall, it's an enjoyable listen. You get Chicky talking and giving his thoughts on his career and the local wrestling scene then and now. There are some details about things that aren’t exactly right if you fact check them (be it due to being so long ago or due to wrestler hyperbole), but it’s an interesting listen. You also hear that Chicky is still angling for that one more match with Invader he’s been after since 2017 (sends Invader a hello early on related to this and then mentions later on that there’s one thing missing to cap off his career which would be that one more match). When this interview came out I did a whole 'tracer'/fact check of sorts about the Yakuza story, since it's one that gets talked about. My eventual conclusion abut what this may be is as follows. It's important to mention that Chicky is not the one that brings up the subject, the interviewer is the one that first brings this topic up. He asks Chicky if he can corroborate some information other people have told him, if it’s true that a group of Japanese mafia, Yakuza, came to Puerto Rico and turned up at WWC/CSP events. Here’s Chicky’s response to this (first the transcription in Spanish, then what he said translated into English): “Lamentablemente sí. Aquí llego un grupo de japoneses una vez, fue en la Cancha Bajo Techo de Caguas, me acuerdo, no se me olvida. Gracias a Dios que Vitin Quiñonez estaba esa noche ahí. Y Vitin Quñonez pues conocía a todos estos japoneses, acuérdate que la IWA nace en Japón no en Puerto Rico, y Vitin vivió 10 años en Japón y tenía conocimiento de todas estas personas. Y Vitin fue la persona que habló con todos estos japoneses que venían directamente a hacer su trabajo. Su trabajo era el Invader número 1. Pero gracias a Dios Vitin habló con ellos, conversaron, y no pasó nada. Que sucedió de ese día en adelante desconozco.” “Regrettably yes. A group of Japanese arrived here once, it was at the Cancha Bajo Techo in Caguas, I remember, I don’t forget it. Thank God that Vitin Quiñonez was there that night. And Vitin Quñonez well he knew all of these Japanese, remember that the IWA began in Japan not in Puerto Rico, and Vitin lived 10 years in Japan and had knowledge of all of these people. And Vitin was the person that spoke with all of these Japanese that were coming directly to do their job. Their job was Invader #1. But thank God that Vitin spoke with them, they conversed, and nothing happened. What happened from that day onwards I don’t know.” Now, is there any fire to this smoke? I honestly don’t know. But, if this did happen, let’s see if we can place the timeframe for it. Although Chicky mentions Victor’s years of living in Japan and his knowledge of these people, I don’t think that comes into play here. Because if it did, then that would mean the incident would have taken place after Victor had lived over in Japan (‘he had lived 10 years over there'), which would place it around when IWAPR would have started up. AFAIK, Victor had left CSP by 1992 and hadn’t worked for them since, so no way he would have been there to speak with the Japanese if that were the case. So that would place our timeframe between August 1988 to about early 1992 or so. But, Chicky says that he remembers the incident well, which suggests he was there that night in Caguas. So that would narrow the timeframe further, since Chicky left CSP near the end of August 1990. So now we’re looking at a two-year span. Invader was out of action until March of 89, but reportedly was working office duties again from Nov of 88. So that could narrow the timeframe further if one wishes. The question I have is if Victor’s knowledge and contacts of Japan were developed enough at this point in time for him to be able to handle this incident happening if it occurred just as stated. We know he was involved in FMW and that he was involved in the angle during Onita’s visit at the end of August (he's there in the pictures that were taken). Mr. Pogo had also been wrestling for most of that span in CSP (and was also involved in the Onita angle), so there’s a way for connections to start being made. So, if this supposedly happened, it looks like it may have been before Onita showed up wanting to do the angle for the FMW anniversary show, which may seem weird when thinking about the timing unless you assume this was a first attempt and then believe the whole conspiracy theory regarding the motives for Onita wanting to bring Invader to Japan. That also assumes Victor already had the connections and experience to call these guys off somehow, which I’m not completely sold on (Victor Quiñones in 1990 doesn't look to have built up either the connections or pull to call of the Yakuza). If it was after Onita’s visit, then Chicky wasn’t with the company anymore, so it’s odd that he remembers it so well as if it was something that happened with him there. Third possibility I’m thinking. Could it be possible that this group came during Onita’s visit? Was it mafia or could it have been an entourage that was assumed to be/misrepresented as mafia? Maybe it was mafia. But you know what, what if it was the group of Japanese press there for Onita’s angle (which was done at the WWC offices) that had decided to show up at the next house show card trying to get pictures and comments from Invader, who had no idea of what Onita had done (this has been said by several people involved, that Invader had no idea what Onita was up to and in fact after the initial pull apart had had left, leaving Onita to cut himself and try to pass it off as if he were stabbed). And Victor, possibly in on the angle Onita was working (since looking at this initially the photographer Scott Romer did an interview where he basically says that Victor was in on it with Onita and Invader didn't know), he ran interference so they wouldn’t find out and told everyone once he got rid of them that they were mafia looking to get Invader, which may have ensured the other locals not going near the Japanese to ask them what they were doing there if they were perceived as a threat. They were already working on hiding the intent of doing the stabbing angle pictures, would they also pull something like this as well? Victor was involved in in the stabbing pic deal, not a stretch to assume he may have been involved here also. By the way, according to Bahu’s FMW history recaps, Onita traveled to Puerto Rico on Aug. 29 for this whole deal. Guess where the Sept 1 card took place from? Cancha Bajo Techo de Caguas. So what I'm thinking is that locally it's a case of mistaken or misrepresented identity, with Onita coming up with the Yakuza story later to try to counter the heat he was getting for doing the pictures and booking the match. A couple of quick notes of other things mentioned in the interview. I didn't take Chicky saying they were on alert to mean they were armed (he never says they were armed at any point, just that they were on alert in case anything was up in the ring), what I understood it to be is that they were on alert in case Invader tried to shoot or start anything. And then he says that nothing happened, it turned out to be an excellent match and Invader wrestled normally (which shocked Chicky). What's interesting is that Chicky says it was the scheduled tag match that took place, while Ron Starr in his book says that it was changed to a singles match between Invader and himself. The other thing is that Chicky is the only person to say the card in Mayaguez took place, every single other person and/or source that talks about his says the card was cancelled due to the lack of wrestlers that showed up. So that's one claim that's probably not correct or a bit misremembered (unless you assume that everyone else is misremembering or wrong).

I see a lot of the ones I thought of have been mentioned, but I remember liking Ulysses 31 when I saw it all those years ago, as well as Samurai Pizza Cats. For one offs I'm going for two that aired on Disney Channel way back when, Aladdin and the Wonderful Lamp from 1982 (the version I saw is the one with John Carradine voicing the wizard) and Rupert and the Frog's Song. Oh, and the first two Care Bears movies for nostalgia purposes.

Based on the timing of this, it doesn't look like he'll be a part of it. Who knows if they sneak in a cameo appearance of sorts, but right now all indications are that Eccleston's not a part of it.

https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2020-08-09/christopher-eccleston-doctor-who-big-finish/ Eccleston finally started doing conventions these past couple of years and he says that the experience of meeting fans and feeling the appreciation for his work have helped him come to terms with the bad experience he had working on the show (it's 'healed' him). He even appeared at Gallifrey One in February, so that by itself was a huge step. I wouldn't be surprised if the current pandemic situation accelerated all of this happening, but it wouldn't even have had the chance of happening if Eccleston hadn't started doing convention appearances. What really shocked me was seeing that it's for 12 stories. Would have thought if it ever happened it would have been a one off to test the waters. Really pleasantly surprised, his performance tends to be underrated.

I'll just leave this here.

I sometimes pop in and post here as well. Leave it to Carlos and Kobbo deciding that they were better off making money off of this. And for those that listened to the latest episode of Between the Sheets, here's the TV episode of Ojeda we talked about where Carlos, Invader and Chicky try to put the kayfabe genie back in the bottle. It includes a clip of the Invader 3 blood geyser to satisfy the blood theme of the thread. I forgot to mention on the show that the episode was titled Gladiadores o Payasos del Ring, which translates to Gladiators or Clowns of the Ring.

'Time Lord Victorious' sounds like it will be absolutely amazing or a mess with no in between, looking forward to how this shapes up. For those that don't know, they've been doing watchalong tweetalongs of episodes the past few weeks due to the lockdown and there have been a few bonus videos recorded by people involved with the show to go along with the watchalongs. Here's some of them: Day of the Doctor - Strax Saves The Day Rose - Revenge of the Nestene The Eleventh Hour - The Raggedy Doctor Human Nature/Family of Blood - Prologue - Shadow of a Doubt Human Nature/Family of Blood - Epilogue - The Shadow in the Mirror Rory's Story These and other videos can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoRhKoBcGwcCT8YJBxKrWLw/videos

You can add Davey Boy Smith and David Hart Smith to the list of father and son tag champs. Also Blackjack Mulligan and Barry Windham, which would make it three generations from that family to be a tag champ. And IRS also has Bo Dallas.

One thing being overlooked by people highlighting how there was an increase from two weeks ago in the ratings (never mind that it's a negligible increase since the share remained steady at a 0.8 rating) is this: October 19 Total average: 2.441 Hour 1: 2.390 Hour 2: 2.493 November 1 Total average: 2.543 Hour 1: 2.605 Hour 2: 2.481 Notice the second hour comparison? Smackdown actually lost viewers as the show went on. It looks like the rating got boosted by the curiosity of how they were going to handle the no shows and then ticked down to where it had been two weeks prior by hour 2.

I'd normally divide the next batch into two groups (1961-1977ish as Expansion Era 1 and from 1977 to 1993 as Second expansion era) but I'll comment as a large group focused on 1961-1987 in order to match up with the HOF Era Committee time frames. 1961-1987 This group includes the players of the expansion era, the second deadball era of the 60s and the introduction of the DH. C - I support Ted Simmons, Thurman Munson and Bill Freehan. Joe Torre as manager but I'd also say he would deserve it as a player. Don't know what to make of Gene Tenace due to how he divided his time between catcher and first base. Darrell Porter, Jim Sundberg and Lance Parrish are the next group of candidates and are a no from me at this time. 1B - Keith Hernandez is a yes for me. Norm Cash is in the gray area and the next candidates would be Boog Powell and Steve Garvey who are a no. 2B - Bobby Grich and Lou Whitaker are a definite yes, Willie Randolph is someone i could also support. After them are Davey Lopes and Frank White but they are a no. SS - No clear misses, but there is a group of candidates that have there backers and also have their demerits: Bert Campaneris, Jim Fregosi, Dave Concepcion, Maury Wills and Mark Belanger. 3B - There's quite a group of potential candidates here: Graig Nettles, Buddy Bell, Dick Allen, Sal Bando, Darrell Evans, Ron Cey and Toby Harrah. I'd support Nettles and Allen, not sure on the rest. Evans pulls ahead of the remaining candidates due to his years at 1B and DH, but not sure on him. Bell and Bando depend on how you view their defense.. LF - Pete Rose is banned or else he'd be a clear miss. Other than him, no candidate I would go for with the best being Jose Cruz, George Foster, Roy White and Frank Howard. CF - No candidate that blows me away, although there are a lot that have their backers: Jimmy Wynn, Willie Davis, Vada Pinson, Cesar Cedeño, Chet Lemon, Fred Lynn, Dale Murphy, Al Oliver and Amos Otis. Lot of defensive standouts as welt with Curt Flood (who probably should be considered for his pioneering efforts), Paul Blair, Willie Wilson and Garry Maddox. Out of all of them i have a soft spot for Dale Murphy, but can't quite go for backing him. RF - I'd support Dwight Evans and maybe Reggie smith. Bobby Bonds is in the gray area and am undecided on him. There's the group of Rocky Colavito, Tony Oliva and Rusty staub who don't add much post age 32 (well, Staub adds bulk but not any prime meat). Dave Parker has that hideous five year run ion what should have been his prime, if not for that he'd be a contender for me. Jack clark does well ont he value metrics but is a no for me. Roger Maris needed a year or two more like his 1960 and 1961 seasons. P - I'd support Luis Tiant, Tommy John and possibly Jim Kaat. Rick Reuschel does very well on the value metrics, but not really convinced on backing him since I suspect there's some illusion due to all of the adjustments that the value metrics make for him. Mickey Lolich, Vida Blue, Ron Guidry, Larry Jackson, Jerry Koosman, Wilbur Wood, and Frank Tanana all miss for me. Reliever wise there is no one that I'd support, although John Hiller, Dan Quisenberry, Kent Tekulve and Sparky Lyle are the best candidates. DH - No worthy candidates although Don Baylor and Hal McRae are the best of this time frame. 1988-2006 Going with the Today's Era time frame and through 2006 to match the end point for the next time they meet in 2021 to elect the 2022 class. During this time frame the wild card gets introduced, there's an offensive explosion and testing for enhancers begins. I'll add some of the more recent candidates that have fallen off the ballot as well. C -Jorge Posada and Jason Kendall are the best candidates not elected, could be convinced to support either of them although I'm more partial to Posada. 1B - I would support Rafael Palmeiro, Mark McGwire and Fred McGriff. Undecided on Will Clark. John Olerud is a sneaky good candidate but falls short for me. Have a soft spot for Carlos Delgado but falls short. Don Mattingly got injured and Mark Grace started a bit late to be in the Olerud sphere. 2B - No clear misses, although a shame about Chuck Knoblauch. SS - No clear candidates I would support, with Nomar Garciaparra, Miguel Tejada and Tony Fernandez being the best of them. 3B - No clear stand outs, with Robin Ventura and Matt Williams being the best candidates. Could be swayed on either of them with a convincing argument. LF - No clear candidates, Albert Belle has the peak but not the career bulk. Luis Gonzalez and Lance Berkman are the best of the rest. The value mtreics love Tony Phillips but I'm not sold on him. CF - I'd support Jim Edmonds, Kenny Lofton and Bernie Williams. Johnny Damon and Brett Butler are the next best but a no for me. Eric Davis is a melancholy what if. RF - No candidates I would support, with the best being Brian Giles (a value metric candidate), Jose Canseco, Darryl Strawberry and maybe Juan Gonzalez if you're into hardware and homers. P - Some interesting pitcher candidates, with Kevin Brown, David Cone and Dave Stieb being the one's I'd probably support. Other interesting candidates are Bret Saberhagen, Orel Hershiser, Dwight Gooden, Kevin Appier, Chuck Finley and Jamie Moyer. Johan Santana has the peak but lacks career bulk. Reliever wise there are no candidates I would support, John Franco is probably the best candidate of them. DH - No worthy candidates with Brian Downing and Chili Davis being the best of the unelected from this time frame. 2007-2020 Finally, candidates still on the ballot or upcoming eligibles. C - I'd support Joe Mauer when he becomes eligible. 1B - Todd Helton probably belongs in but not completely sold. Jason Giambi and Mark Teixeira are a no for me. 2B - I lean yes to Jeff Kent, but could be convinced otherwise. Undecided on Chase Utley. SS - Not an Omar Vizquel backer. Derek Jeter is a sure thing. Alex Rodriguez should have been a sure thing but he's got his issues (although I would out him in). Jimmy Rollins falls short for me. 3B - Scott Rolen should be in. Adrian Beltre is a yes. David Wright is just on the borderline of me saying no. LF - Barry Bonds and Manny Ramirez should be in. CF - Andruw Jones depends on how you view his defense and how much weight it carries for his candidacy. Torii Hunter is a no. Carlos Beltran is a yes. RF - Larry walker, Sammy Sosa and Gary Sheffield should be in. Not sold on Bobby Abreu. Ichiro is a yes once he's eligible. P - Roger Clemens and Curt Schilling should be in. I could see Andy Pettitte making it eventually. I'm ambivalent on Billy Wagner, if he goes in fine but not really behind him. Upcoming candidates Tim Hudson and Mark Buehrle I'd lean no on. Joe Nathan and Francisco Rodriguez are a no. DH - David Ortiz should be elected when he gets on the ballot. And with that I'm done with the potential candidates. Comments welcome.

Agreed. The posts I'm making are focusing on players, but yes he's an overlooked executive/owner candidate. I'd add Al Reach, Bob Ferguson and Jim Mutrie as other overlooked executive/owner/manager/combination candidates from the post-1869 to 1900 era. There's quite a few pioneers from before this that also should be considered such as Adams, Pearce, Creighton, Leggett, Pidgeon, etc.

Continuing with the next groups. 1921-1940 So encompassing the two decades of the liveball era, I've got the following: C - Wally Schang straddles the last part of the deadball era and is the only candidate not in worth considering at catcher for this era. 1B - No one, best candidates are Joe Judge and Dolph Camilli and they miss for me (although Camilli is interesting when you consider the PCL and WW2). 2B - No one, best candidates are Buddy Myer, Max Bishop and Lonny Frey and they all miss for me. Not sure if George Scales or Rev Cannady make the cut, need more info to evaluate them fairly. SS - I would support Dobie Moore and likely Dick Lundy, am left wondering how good Pedro Cepeda was. MLB wise there is no one, best candidate is Dick Bartell and that is a no. 3B - I would support Stan Hack and it's a shame Harlond Clift got injured. John Beckwith is a possibility, leaning yes for me. After this, Jimmie Dytkes and Willie Kamm are the next best MLB candidates and they are a definite no for me. LF - Bob Johnson is a good candidate. Ken Williams falls short. Need more info on Hurley McNair. CF - No MLB candidates that are obvious, only Wally Berger could be a possibility if you value peak and give PCL credit since his career was cut short by injury. Not sure about Alejandro Oms and Lazaro Salazar, need further evaluation from me. RF - No MLB candidates, best is Babe Herman and he misses with me. Need more info on Heavy Johnson and Rap Dixon, and Chino smith is a what if. P - I'd back Wes Ferrell and Urban Shocker, with Jack Quinn also a possibility. Dick Redding would also be someone i see supporting, but need to evaluate if another NgL pitcher from this period makes the grade. Dolf Luque, Carl Mays, Eddie Rommel, Bobo Newsom and George Uhle fall short for me. Lon Warneke's stretches into the WW2 years but also would fall short. I'm undecided on Tommy Bridges. 1941-1960 This era is one of the tricky ones for evaluation since it covers two wars and integration. : C -Quincy Trouppe probably deserves to go in but falls through the cracks since his career falls post NgL collapse. MLB wise there is no one that I'd support, your best remaining candidates are Smoky Burgess and Walker Cooper. 1B - I would actually support Gil Hodges. After that are guys like Mickey Vernon, Ted Kluszweski, Frank McCormick and Phil Cavaretta who are a no from me. Luke Easter is such a mystery box to evaluate properly. 2B - No obvious candidates. Best possibilities are the group of Gil McDougald, Eddie Stanky, Jim Gilliam and Bobby Avila, all with truncated careers due to different reasons and a re a no from me. Marvin Williams is a possibility, need more info to evaluate him. SS - Vern Stephens is the best possibility and I'm undecided on him Guys like Al Dark and Johnny Pesky need war credit to make them viable candidates. Marty Marion is someone that gets mentioned as a candidate by some but he's a no for me. I'd be remiss if i didn't give Cecil Travis at least a mention. Bus Clarkson is a possibility, need more info to evaluate him. 3B - Ken Boyer is a definite support and I'd also back Bob Elliott. A shame Al Rosen started later than he should have and then got hurt. LF - Minnie Miñoso is also a clear miss by the HOF and should be in. Charlie Keller is an interesting possibility once WW2 credit is considered. CF - No clear misses. Dom Dimaggio is in the gray area if you factor in PCL and WW2 credit. Shame about Pete Reiser. RF - No candidates for me, Bill Nicholson falls short and Tommy Henrich needs WW2 credit to be viable. Tommy Holmes needs IL credit to be considered. P - I'd support Billy Pierce and Don Newcombe if you factor in his NgL playing days plus time missed due to Korea. Bucky Walters is someone I'm undecided on. Dizzy Trout and Mel Harder fall short. There may be a worthy NgL pitcher candidate but need to examine them more closely.

Continuing with the next group. 1893 to 1920: From when the mound gets moved to its current distance, through the creation of the AL and encompassing the Deadball era, I have the following: C - No obvious misses, but this a very tough and tricky era to evaluate catchers due to the context of the deadball era (specifically the spitball and other junkball pitches) and evolution of catcher equipment during this time. Candidates like Jack Clements, Duke Farrell and Chief Zimmer are mainly before the full on deadball era, while candidates such as Steve O'Neill and Hank Gowdy have part of their career in the baseball era. Johnny Kling is the best candidate who fall squarely in the deadball era, with Chief Meyers not reaching the ten year requirement. Deacon McGuire has the lengthy career that goes through the first decade of the deadball era. Best candidates to me are Kling and Clements, but need more analysis of the contextual factors for this era. 1B - No obvious misses, best candidates are Ed Konetchy, Fred Tenney and Jack Fournier, but none really sway me (defense may change one's view of Tenney to the best of this bunch). Jake Daubert and Harry Davis are the next best but are out for me. 2B - Cupid Childs would have my backing, the next best would be Del Pratt and Larry Doyle but both would be a no from me. Bill Monroe is a possibility, but there is a lack of information to make a solid determination on his candidacy. SS - Bill Dahlen is a clear miss and should be in. Grant Johnson is someone who should be in as well. After that, the best candidates are likely Art Fletcher, Roger Peckinpaugh, Donie Bush and Herman Long but they don't clear the bar for me. 3B - I'd likely back Heinie Groh, but there's no real stand out candidates from a group that includes, Larry Gardner, Bill Bradley, Lave Cross, Denny Lyons, Arlie Latham and Art Devlin. i guess it depends on what defensive evaluation you use. Tommy Leach is a possibility if you place him as a 3B, but it will depend on how you value his defense. Heinie Zimmerman may have been a possibility if he hadn't gotten banned and had his career cut short. Carlos Moran is a possibility pending more examination of his career. LF - I'd back Sherry Magee. Bobby Veach and Jimmy Sheckard will depend on how you evaluate their defense. Mike (Elmer) Smith and George Burns fall short for me. CF - No clear misses, with some candidates depending on how you evaluate their defense. I'd say that you could evaluate a group consisting of Tommy Leach, Mike Griffin, Fielder Jones, Cy Seymour, Jimmy Ryan, George Van Haltren and maybe Roy Thomas and Clyde Milan. Dummy Hoy has his backers but for other reasons than his play. Bill Lange and Mike Donlin are the two great what ifs. Spottswood Poles falls short for me at this time. RF - Joe Jackson is banned or else he would be a clear miss. The other other candidates I could see considering are Gavvy Cravath and Mike Tiernan. P - There's no one I'd say is an obvious miss (setting aside Eddie Cicotte since he's banned). You could evaluate a group that contains Babe Adams, Wilbur Cooper, Jack Powell, Al Orth. Jack Stivetts, Nap Rucker and Hippo Vaughn, but no sure misses there (Babe Adams is probably the best candidate of this group, but I'm not sold on him). Eustaquio Pedroso may be a possibility but again would need more examination. Not as many clear misses as the previous group, then again, the nineteenth century ash always been bungled by the HOF since it started its elections so there should be more clear misses there. Again, there are few candidates that straddle this era and the next one, I'll mention them in the next group.

I wanted to chime in on this at some point and finally had some time to do so. I'll divide the eras by how it makes sense to me and go by positions. 1869 to 1892 Setting aside pioneers that are before this era (such as Doc Adams and Jim Creighton among others) and candidates that played in this era but are more candidates for other reasons (such as Dickey Pearce, Al Reach and Bob Ferguson among others) I've got the following: C - Charlie Bennett is a deserving candidate and I'm a backer of Cal McVey as well. John Clapp and Jack Rowe are the other possibilities whose careers fall entirely in this era, but fall short for me. 1B - Joe Start once you add his career before 1869. Dave Orr is a what might have been. 2B - Ross Barnes, Hardy Richardson and Fred Dunlap are worthy candidates. Fred Pfeffer falls short. SS - Jack Glasscock is a clear miss by the HOF and should be in. I already mentioned Jack Rowe in the catchers' section and the rest whose careers fall within this time frame fall short (since George Wright is already in and Dickey Pearce is more of a pioneer). 3B - Ned Williamson and Ezra Sutton would get my backing. Levi Meyerle falls short for me. LF - Harry Stovey and Charley Jones are worthy candidates in my opinion. Tip O'Neill, Tom York and Abner Dalrymple fall short. CF - Paul Hines, George Gore, Pete Browning and Lip Pike are all worthy candidates. RF - No one. Orator Shafer and Oyster Burns are the best of the lot whose careers are mainly centered in this era but are not close. P - I'd back Tommy Bond, Bob Caruthers, Tony Mullane and Dick McBride (adding his 1860s career). Jim McCormick, Charlie Buffinton, Silver King and Bobby Mathews are candidates that I'm not sure of yet. Id say no on Will White and Jim Whitney. There are a few candidates that straddle this era and the first decade of the next one, I'll mention them in the next group.

There's a few things I wan to comment with regards to your post, so I'll divide it by parts. I'm actually coming to this topic from the opposite side of sorts, it's at least double digits the amount I've read or heard Tony Atlas give his account of what happened across different media throughout the years. So I'm familiar with the evolution of his account, what's been consistent and what's not stayed as consistent, while keeping in mind that consistent does not necessarily equal correct and that inconsistent does not necessarily equal incorrect. But Atlas has gone from someone not wanting to talk about it, to saying it was an argument that got out of hand, to implying it was a premeditated hit and each time it becomes more and more about how he's the only man standing up to the scum hive . Dutch is also someone that has had various opportunities to give his account across different media throughout the years and is also a case of some things being consistent and others not as much (again with the caveat that consistent doesn't necessarily equal correct and vice versa). On this point, Dutch has tended to be pretty consistent. He usually mentions feeling tension or getting that weird vibe when entering the locker room and because of that feeling not going away, he decides to go out and do something he usually did which was check on the crowd and see the size of the house. As Dutch usually tells it, the uneasy feeling led to him deciding to leave and do his usual ritual of checking the crowd at that moment. The question that arises is what was Brody doing at the time Dutch decided to check the crowd, was he still sitting with ducth or was he elsewhere engaged. What I find interesting is that it's very possible that Brody had already done the same thing that Dutch says he went to do, which is checking the size of the crowd. It's been said many times that Brody would do this and then go to the promoter to demand his money based on what he saw (the explanation usually given that he din;'t want to be shorted). Bobby Jaggers stated in one of his accounts (in one of the books written about Brody, I think i was the Maytsik one) that he actually saw Brody in the other dugout when Jaggers had gone out to look at the crowd, which suggests that Brody was probably doing the same thing. In the episode they mention that they contacted or tried contacting Carlos Colon and Invader about participating and were declined. That was always going to be the case, Invader does not talk about the subject at all and Carlos also avoids the subject. I can understand why, for them it's an ugly episode in their lives and no matter what they say about it, people have already made up their minds about it and will just say everything they say is a lie (regardless of whether it is true or not). On Twitter I saw that the makers of the documentary were asked about not talking with Savio. They said it was because that when they filmed the interviews in 2017, the BTTT shoot that Savio did with Cornette had not yet been released so they didn't think of talking with Savio (not sure if they were even aware that he was there). Savio is pretty much the only local who talks about the topic and has only really done so in the lengthier version he gives in more recent years. The interview with Cornette is not the first time he's talked about those details, there's at least two podcast interviews in English and one in Spanish that he has done in the past four years where he talks at length on this subject. In those accounts, Savio has been consistent in mentioning the Menudo concert taking place that same night in Coliseo Ruben Rodriguez. In fact, it's from his version of the events that this detail comes up. The reason that this becomes an issue with regards to the ambulance is that both Coliseo Ruben Rodriguez and Estadio Juan Ramon Loubriel (where the WWC show was being held) are right next to each other in the same sports complex. And I don't mean a block or two apart, I mean literally right next to each other. Take a look: https://mapasamerica.dices.net/puertorico/mapa.php?nombre=Estadio-Juan-Ramon-Loubriel&id=6062 You'll also see that anyone going to either event that night would have had to use the same access roads to enter the complex and parking lot area. So traffic would have been absolutely backed up and a nightmare to navigate particularly with the rabid fans looking to attend those events. When Savio brings up the Menudo concert hampering the ambulance arrival, what I understand it to means is that the ambulance likely came from the main avenue entry which is on the Ruben Rodriguez side of the complex. So it would have had to try to get through a deadlocked road due to the people trying to get in and park, and without any room for cars in front to get out of the way and let it through. One other detail that also hampers the ambulance getting there in a timely manner (which is also brought up by Savio and I can confirm is entirely correct) is that there was no 911 in Puerto Rico in 1988, so you either had to call an operator to connect you or try to find a number to call for help. It wouldn't be until 1993 or so that a law would be passed enacting 911 as an emergency number. I've never bought into many of the so called explanations they try to peddle as the reasons for stabbing him (and man do they run the gamut), I actually think it's something more simple than all of these elaborate conspiracies. Matt Farmer is someone who has talked with Barbara Goodish about the subject and he has said many times that she has said that there was no money owed from either party to the other. I would think she, more than anyone, would know what the reality of the money situation was. Yet people keep trying to peddle conspiracies based on money being owed. It has never made sense to me, based on everything said and written about Brody, that he would lend a promoter money. And it has never made sense to me, based on the issues and personalities involved, that Colon and Jovica would even consider selling Brody a piece of the company. The only way that you could even begin to push that angle is via Victor Quiñones trying to sell Brody the shares, and even then it would likely be Victor selling any shares he personally owned and not Monsoon's. Remember that Monsoon was the reason Brody was blackballed from the WWWF (likely in part due to Brody taking liberties with some of Monsoon's guys, one of which was Jose Gonzalez) and it would have been 'highly unlikely' that he'd help Brody buy into the promotion. And I completely agree with your comment about it not making sense that Brody would allow himself to be in that position if he was someone who usually knew what was up, especially when he was the cause for the tension in most of the cases. It doesn't really make sense that he would just follow someone hiding something in a towel. Well, unless If you've heard all the different accounts out there in English and Spanish (it helps to not listen just to Atlas and Dutch). There's one account in Spanish that may shed light with regards to this, and it also makes me doubt some of the commonly pushed details of what happened. I have my theory of what happened based on what makes sense from all of the accounts, but people will believe what they want to believe. This is exactly why I don't buy into it being a premeditated hit. If you're going to the trouble of planning to kill someone, sending one of your top draws to do it in an enclosed room where there is only one way in and one way out while there are at least 12-to 15 potential witnesses right there sounds like the dumbest way to go about it. Especially if apparently they have all of this clout and mob ties. There's a lot of things or scenarios put forth that when you stop and think them through, it really sounds ridiculous to believe them. They know where Brody is staying, they're the ones picking him up and taking him back, he's on the island for two weeks and Monday and Tuesday are off days. You're going to tell me that having one of your top acts stab your target in the locker room shower with the only entrance and exit is to a room full of a dozen or so witnesses is the best plan you could come up with, when you have all of these alleged connections and ties and there better opportunities to have it done? I've listened to or read a lot of accounts from various wrestlers about this and it's a mistake to just take anyone's account in a vacuum and at face value. There's a lot that doesn't add up either because they contradict each other or because they are speculating and making stuff up. I could run through all the different versions given by Atlas, Dutch and others and point the deals where I believe there stories don't pass a smell test. Calling back to one of the earlier points, I actually have my doubts about Invader and Brody riding together the previous days. Why? Watch this and let's see if you notice the same thing I do. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p4-C2PF9dU And just so you can see where I come by my cynical view with regards to the evolution of Atlas' account (or anyone else's), you can listen to the latest version of Tony's account. And again, there are things I believe Atlas on and others where I do not. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpFvtKsKtG0 And there are already things he mentions in this version that I would believe and others that I question or just don't believe him on. Par for the course with these accounts.

True, which is why I mentioned that Atlas is a different case from Abdullah and Dutch. Post 1988, he worked one show per decade and the first one was for WWC's competitor. The question being asked was who went back, not why they went back. In most of these cases I'd wager that needing money was the primary motivator. Heck, that would be, the primary motivator before and after what happened, pro wrestling is a business after all. Neither Atlas nor anyone else who came here because it was their option to make money should be lambasted for it, as Victator mentions and you also allude with your post, you have to make a living. And Atlas appears to not have bad thoughts about Puerto Rico as a place (setting aside that horrible weekend through whenever it was he left). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvwOANnb3w4 I understand where you're coming from with regards to the word "carny", there is a connotation to the word. And we are in complete agreement, there is nothing wrong in taking care of you and yours given the options available, as long as it's not directly harming someone else. The wrestlers that stayed or came back did so because they likely felt it was either their best option, their only option, or because they actually felt it was simply a good place for them work (contrary to what some may say or lead you to believe when this subject comes up, this isn't a totally corrupt hellscape where they'll harvest your body parts on the street). You can tell that the grief some of these guys got from others for continuing to work or come back bothered them, Bobby Jaggers being a good example based on interviews he gave. That part we agree is dehumanizing to them and is not something that is fair to them. But going back to "carny" for a bit, in a business that is built on deception as a means to make money, I feel that the term can apply to some of the guys in question. Not for working there or going back to wrestle, but for the way they present the subject when it's brought up. It strikes me a bit as having your cake and eating it too. For the people that take that tact, I think that the shoe fits in those cases. Some guys can't turn of the switch. The same example you give about Brody likely not stopping to work for the company has been mentioned by some wrestlers as well, and would seem to fit based on what we know about Brody. We are in agreement about people trying to exploit what happened as being beyond the pale. You mention Onita as a good example, another one that isn't mentioned usually for this point is Victor Quiñones. Who knows what the real story here is, but my favorite detail about Onita's trip to try to set this up is Onita trying to no avail to find a doctor that would stitch him up for the photos and being turned away because the wound didn't warrant it. He finally found one that did it, likely so that Onita would quit bothering him. I've heard two versions of the whole Onita saga (one is the one Savio tells, the other is from another local's account) and, whether the Yakuza revenge murder angle is real or not, locally they must have been warned by someone that it was a possibility since apparently Invader was at the airport to take the flight to Japan when the call came in warning him not to go. Savio in his version says it was him or him and Quiñones that gave the warning, the other version mentions it was someone else. Like many things about the whole ordeal, who knows what the reality is. The only things you can be sure are that you shouldn't believe any of these accounts completely, while there are things that are true, there are also many things that don't add up, contradict each other, are straight up fabrications and/or self serving BS. I could list all of the things I find to fall into the second category that were mentioned in the episode, but ultimately, it doesn't change what happened (regardless of the circumstances that caused it).

Depends on which group of carneys you mean (if it's the ones interviewed or the larger group of people that were there that weekend), but in the case of the three interviewed for the episode the answer would be all three of them. Even Atlas. Abdullah was a mainstay throughout the rest of his career. Dutch, who was working a quick shot that particular weekend, would work the Aniversario 88 show about a month and a half later. He'd stay away for about 5 years but be back around late 93 to 94 and be more or less a mainstay in Puerto Rico for the next ten years Atlas is a bit of a different case than Abdullah and Dutch. He again worked for WWC on the Aniversario 2000 and 2010 shows many years after the incident. What's interesting is that he wrestled Dutch on the 2000 show, a card that also featured Invader 1 and Carlos Colon. But Atlas did make a return to Puerto Rico earlier than that, he wrestled on the AWF's 1992 anniversary show. Well, that is if you ignore the possibility that Atlas may have actually wrestled on the July 24 card for WWC in 1988. The card ad in the newspaper is out there and it lists Atlas vs. Dick Slater as one of the matches. Card ad would have gone to press late in the week, so there would have been plenty of time to scratch Atlas from it if he indeed had left the island on Sunday night. Dutch is listed on the ad for the July 17 show and there's a good chance that he was coming in to do the shot as a replacement for Rufus R. Jones, so the lineup could have been changed midweek before sending it to press. In the Observers of that time, there's mention of Slater coming in to do the weekend shot with the mention that there were some wrestlers telling him not to go. Then the following issue mentions that there was heat on Slater for working the shot, so that does indicate that Slater worked the show. And in a 1992 Observer issue where the AWF card is mentioned, it does make note that outside of one show, this would be Atlas' first time wrestling in Puerto Rico since the stabbing. If that's the case, that Atlas did wrestle one more show post stabbing, then it points to it likely being the July 24 card. Like I said, it's only a possibility that he worked that date, but if something were to turn up that actually substantiates that he did work that show... As for the others on the card, most everyone wrestled again in Puerto Rico for WWC within the next few years. The Youngbloods would work through the end of July before leaving, but would return in March of 89 on the exact same card Invader 1 had his first match back. Bobby Jaggers stayed through the first week of January of 89 before leaving. Dan Kroffat stuck around through March of 89. The Wild Samoans worked various shots throughout the rest of 88. Ron Starr worked through mid August, came back in November to turn face and would be in and out over the next few years. Pogo and Nagasaki stuck around, Muta worked through the first half of August before moving on. Buddy Landel stuck around for awhile, Dan Spivey worked the Aniversario 88 show as well as a couple of others after it. I think pretty much Dory Funk Jr. and Invader 2 were the ones that didn't immediately come back (Dory wrestled Carlos in 2005 and Invader 2 reappeared about 7 or 8 years after this), although I'm not completely sure in Dory's case. I know at least Terry Funk did come back in October of 88 and the Aniversario 93 show (even if he claims now that he never came back), although Terry wasn't in Puerto Rico the night of the stabbing. You know who else wasn't in Puerto Rico that night and wrestled afterwards for WWC (on the Aniversario 88 show no less)? The Iron Sheik. If you saw the episode you know why I'm mentioning this. Even Kerry and Kevin Von Erich worked shots for WWC in 1989.

Late 98. And Abdullah did do the match, although it wasn't a smooth meeting. There's a feud recap video that was done for the Aniversario 99 Carlos Colon vs. Ray Gonzalez match that includes some snippets of Carlos being injured, the surgery and rehab (with a severe shoulder scar post op) and of the resulting tag match, but includes nothing from Carlos going to the restaurant. Really wish footage of that would turn up.

The other angle is a desperate and injured Carlos Colon, having been put on the shelf by former protégé turned brash arrogant heel Ray Gonzalez and his henchmen, makes an unannounced and uninvited trip to a certain restaurant in the hopes that his mortal enemy of 20 years, who Colon had forced into retirement a year before due to winning a loser must retire match (and therefore depriving said rival of being able to make a living), could be convinced to come back and help him. This angle precedes the Steiner one by about twelve years and was the first time something was done at the restaurant. One of my favorite angles ever. Abdullah spoke English, as did Ray when interacting with Abdullah.

Scott Steiner's run in WWC was around 09-10. A quick check shows that Steiner vs. Ray Gonzalez for the Universal title happened at the 2010 Aniversario show. One highlight from that feud that I remember was an episode where they kept showing footage of Scott Steiner in the passenger seat of a car talking to either the driver or the person filming him from the backseat and talking smack about Ray Gonzalez and how he was going to teach him a lesson and so on. These were presented as videos Steiner had sent in. I don't remember if the feud was just beginning or if it had been going on for a while, but they ran a few of these promos of him in the car throughout the episode, with the last one ending with Steiner arriving wherever he was going and exiting the car. That episode also featured Ray Gonzalez visiting Abdullah the Butcher's House of Ribs & Chinese Food in Atlanta. The reason for the visit was that Ray was looking for a lucrative business opportunity and had found what he believed to be the next untapped gold mine. You guessed it, Ray was there to meet with Abdullah about becoming an investor and franchisee of Abdullah's House of Ribs & Chinese Food. Ray is sitting at a table in the restaurant waiting for Abdullah, all the while excited about this potential lucrative business opportunity. Abdullah ambles over (by this point he's already getting around with the help of a cane) and greets him. Ray thanks him for agreeing to meet him and spends a few moments talking about the great opportunity and potential he sees in becoming a franchisee. They talk for a bit and then Abdullah proceeds to give Ray a tour of the restaurant. What follows is about of minute of great unintentional hilarity, as Abdullah ambles around the restaurant looking like someone who is trying to figure out what the hell to show Ray and a jazzed up Ray Gonzalez following him around, exclaiming his glee about what he's being shown. Abdullah shows him the dining area and Ray's nodding his head going "Good, good." Abdullah shows him other parts of the restaurant including the counter area, the kitchen, even a supply room, and all the while Ray continues just being excited about what he's being shown. The highlight for me was Abdullah showing Ray the freaking walk-in freezer, going over to a box and opening it up to show Ray while saying "The meat, this is good stuff" and Ray giving an awed expression going "Oh wow, this is great." Eventually, Abdullah runs out of things to show Ray inside the restaurant, so they head outside onto the deck where the entrance is. Abdullah gestures towards the steps that lead to the parking lot, then turns around to show Ray the rest of the deck ("And we have this area here"), while Ray just nods his head liking what he's seeing. At that moment, in the background you see a car pull up in the parking lot behind them. All of a sudden, Scott Steiner emerges from the passenger side of the car, runs up the steps and jumps an unaware Ray Gonzalez from behind. He then proceeds to give Ray a beat down on the deck of the restaurant while Abdullah is off to one side saying "Hey man, what are you doing, don't" at Steiner, but unable to do anything because of his physical condition. Steiner leaves Ray beaten down on the deck and leaves, with the segment ending on Abdullah checking on Ray as best as his condition allowed (meaning asking if he was okay from where he was standing). It's my second favorite angle that WWC ran at Abdullah's restaurant.