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5 hours ago, CreativeControl said:

Okay, what if time.

It's an accepted fact that Magnum TA was being given the keys to the kingdom in the late 80s/early 90s. This was prior to Turner buying Crockett and Luger and Sting being seen as the bankable stars of the future.

Say Magnum doesn't get in his accident and does unseat Flair in 88/89, how does the trajectory of WCW change if at all? Do Sting and/or Luger end up in upper midcarder territory forever? Does he leave with others to WWF in 89 only to make his way back in a couple of years? How does Magnum evolve into the 90s with the advent of the nWo and Attitude era?

Magnum needed to beat Flair for the belt sometime in 1987, if they did the endless chase with all of the screwy finishes into 1988 he would have cooled off and gotten a "Lex Loser" can't win the big one vibe. The heel champ always keeping the belt by the skin of his teeth model of the NWA/JCP was so ingrained into everyone involved that I can't see them giving Magnum a run longer than a few months, he needed to be a champion in the style of Bruno and Backlund. 

I always thought Vince would have signed him sometime in 1987, I always pictured Magnum being booked as if they combined 87/88 Jake Roberts and Jim Duggan, he would have drawn money in a feud with someone like Rick Rude or defending the good old USA and he was way more reliable than those two.

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Happjack is correct, the way the NWA booked their world title would have totally screwed TA. He would have needed a year plus title reign, but they would have been wanting to put the belt back on Flair after three or four months. 

I believe he ends up in the WWF, in the Mr. Wonderful to Hulk Hogan role for awhile. Wins the IC belt, eventually gets turned to the dark side by Bobby Heenan, and has a big money run with Hogan. 

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His gimmick was very much of the 80s though, so I'm thinking if he was still around in 93, 94 time he'd be better as a grumpy heel. Maybe him and Windham would be in the Hollywood Blondes spot.

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I can see Magnum beating Flair and then turning heel so Dusty could beat him for the belt. 

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Posted (edited)

See that's the other thing, I can never picture him as a heel. I'm sure he could pull it off, but just as Rick Rude is the quintessential heel to me, Magnum is up there as one of the ultimate babyfaces in that sweet spot of women wanting him and men wanting to be him. Into the 90s I always pictured him in the DDP role but he's maybe too old school to roll with the constant regime changes and politics. Would he have coped with Dusty not protecting/grooming him?

Edited by CreativeControl

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Given his short fuse, I can easily see him flipping out over something. He could also have easily been a tweeter, maybe like Dutch was then.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Dewar said:

Happjack is correct, the way the NWA booked their world title would have totally screwed TA. He would have needed a year plus title reign, but they would have been wanting to put the belt back on Flair after three or four months. 

I believe he ends up in the WWF, in the Mr. Wonderful to Hulk Hogan role for awhile. Wins the IC belt, eventually gets turned to the dark side by Bobby Heenan, and has a big money run with Hogan. 

You'd have to keep Mags separate from Hogan, he can't go from being Dusty's buddy to Hogan's buddy he needs to be his own man. Magnum could team with Hogan in towns like Baltimore and Providence but he's going to captain his own Survivor Series team and have his own page in the merchandise catalog. Also TA doesn't come off as someone who'd be jealous of Hogan's success, he'd be happy for the Hulkster and laugh off any attempt from a heel manager who tried to get into his ear about Hogan. Now Magnum going heel when Savage was champ and babyface would have worked perfectly and drawn big money, Mags getting jealous and frustrated that someone like Randy Savage was the champ and had the girl when both rightfully should have been his would have worked if he was eliminated from the WM4 tourney in a screwy way.

Edited by happjack
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I thought the plan was Magnum beating Flair at Starrcade in 86 to set-up him and Nikita again? Or was it he was beating Nikita at Starrcade to set-up a US title feud with Jimmy Garvin?

James

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Did Nikita Koloff ever have any matches with Kerry Von Erich or any combo of Nikita/Ivan/Krusher and the Von Erichs?

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Dusty would have messed it up somehow before the typical failures we remember WCW for happened tbh. 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/30/2019 at 6:48 PM, Infinit said:

Did Nikita Koloff ever have any matches with Kerry Von Erich or any combo of Nikita/Ivan/Krusher and the Von Erichs?

The only thing close I saw going through cagematch is that they were both on the Comiskey Park Superclash but in different matches. Kerry and Nikita, that is. 

Edited by odessasteps
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Maybe I'm an idiot that doesn't know how to use Cagematch, but was there ever the had-to-be-incredible matchup of Don Leo Jonathan vs. Billy Robinson anywhere?

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Does not look like that match took place.

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Is there a reason that the Freebirds went to AWA, rather than staying in World Class post-Parade of Champions 1985?

I'd assume money, but I'm primarily asking because the Observer seemed to believe they were set for a stay in World Class, yet they only hung around for a few weeks.

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Posted (edited)

Freebirds usually didn't stay in one area too long.  Them being in World Class from 82-84 was more an anomaly than the norm.  I would assume they left because at the time Chris Adams and Gino Hernandez were the top heels and the Birds were kinda playing second fiddle in a truce with the Von Erichs.  

Edited by sydneybrown

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The NWA/WCW never really figured out that they could book a long-term face champion now that the territory system was basically dead until Hogan came in. And even then, after his first run, there isn't another long babyface world title run ever again.

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Posted (edited)

Have The Briscoes been around long enough now that there can be old school questions about them?

If so, why are Jay and Mark also “The Briscoes” and what, if any, is the connection to Jack and Gerald?

Edited by BobbyWhioux

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Jack and Gerry are "The Briscos" Mark and Jay are "The BriscoEs"

They came up via ECWA around the time that Gerry was stooging on Raw, so it's likely Kettner thought it'd be funny.

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Posted (edited)

WCW had a good idea with Sting. Have him beat a good enough challenger (Sid) while laying the tracks for Starrcade, The Black Scorpion. Like every good idea had though they messed it up. Them flat not having any idea at all what to do with a face champion is a myth.

I remembered what was going on with the Black Scorpion pretty well with him stalking Sting claiming to be from his past, with a play on words nickname. Perfect lol! I recently rewatched some TV though and he went as far as to give dates and places and other references to the Ultimate Warrior. That obviously was a risk but they could have probably thought of some kind of payoff besides Ric Flair in the months they had before Starrcade. 

But where it started going to crap was before then. For some reason they had him start doing magic tricks and chants and whatnot. Just really silly stuff that lost it’s suspense before Starrcade, aka a good idea they messed up. So they just went back to Flair.

Edited by BloodyChamp

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Was Flair winning the title soon after a bit of a 'thank you' for bailing them out on that angle?

Typical Flair, he didn't even attempt to wrestle a different style or do anything to throw you off the ball when it came down to the match lol.

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The Rick Martel discussion in the chat thread got me thinking, what it Rick Martel came in as a singles heel in 1987 instead of a face tag teamer? Anyone else think he ends up in the Honky Tonk Man's spot and is legit remembered as one of the greatest IC champs? Think of Martel vs. Jake a few years earlier, Martel vs. Steamboat, Martel vs. Savage and Martel dragging good matches out of Beefcake and Warrior. 

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Posted (edited)

No one in the world would bring in 1987 Rick Martel as a heel. He could be a babyface replacement for Steamboat, however. 

Do we generally believe the Butch Reed rumor as fact? 

I could see a world where Reed and Martel are tearing things up throughout 87. 

Edited by Matt D

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, BloodyChamp said:

WCW had a good idea with Sting. Have him beat a good enough challenger (Sid) while laying the tracks for Starrcade, The Black Scorpion. Like every good idea had though they messed it up. Them flat not having any idea at all what to do with a face champion is a myth.

I remembered what was going on with the Black Scorpion pretty well with him stalking Sting claiming to be from his past, with a play on words nickname. Perfect lol! I recently rewatched some TV though and he went as far as to give dates and places and other references to the Ultimate Warrior. That obviously was a risk but they could have probably thought of some kind of payoff besides Ric Flair in the months they had before Starrcade. 

Wikipedia says Flair said that it was supposed to be Al Perez, which also sounds uninspiring

But where it started going to crap was before then. For some reason they had him start doing magic tricks and chants and whatnot. Just really silly stuff that lost it’s suspense before Starrcade, aka a good idea they messed up. So they just went back to Flair.

Can anybody refresh my memory on whether there even was a planned payoff for the angle?  All I'd ever heard was that Angel of Death might have been the plan for the real Black Scorpion, playing off him and Sting's days in Powerteam USA or the UWF or whatever.  I know Angel portrayed one of the masked Scorpions who wrestled on a Clash or maybe did card tricks, but having longtime utility player Dave Sheldon unmask would have gone over like a fart in church.

Wikipedia mentions that Flair said it was supposed to have been Al Perez the whole time, which also feels really uninspired.

I really hope it was "we'll figure it out when we get there" because that would be the most late 80s NWA/WCW thing.

Edited by Technico Support

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10 hours ago, Technico Support said:

I really hope it was "we'll figure it out when we get there" because that would be the most late 80s NWA/WCW thing.

Pretty sure the angle was all set-up with no pay-off.  All the clues insinuated that Ultimate Warrior was the Scorpion which obviously was never happening.  So when you're hinting THAT, ANY reveal is going to be a huge letdown.

I always felt the Black Scorpion gimmick was to let guys like Angel of Death and Al Perez wrestle Sting as The Black Scorpion to help the house shows and make what would otherwise be borderline jobber matches seem like a bigger deal.  

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Well... I could see Eddie Gilbert being a good pay off for The Black Scorpion. He's the only guy with a name value associated to Sting's past that wasn't Warrior.

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