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December 2023 Wrestling Talk

Dolfan in NYC

By Dolfan in NYC
in The PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING

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Phantom Lord

Phantom Lord

Posted
Posted
20 hours ago, Greggulator said:

Are we talking about The Iron Claw here or in the movie thread? It's really great. Nerds like us will get a kick out of stuff like hearing Jerry Jarrett's name in a film or seeing an approximation of Michael PS Hayes and will chuckle at their Ric Flair (the only rough part of the movie.) It left out the life of Chris Von Erich (they had to streamline a lot of the film) and I'm sure some of the timeline stuff is completely off. But I can look over all of that if the movie is well made, and this is really good. There's a lot of fun and joy (as brothers who love each other have) and it just makes the upcoming tragedies hit that much harder. 

I went out and saw it last night and thought it was pretty good. Some of it was over dramatized and the time lines are all off, but despite that it was really good. MJF does at least get some screen time. I wish they would have kept his part in and dwelled on it because Fritz was a bastard for doing the old fake cousin gimmick right after another one of his kids died.

Without being too spoilerly, if anything they didn't go in enough on Fritz and the stuff he did. I guess Kevin still had some love and respect for him.

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BloodyChamp

BloodyChamp

Posted
Posted

I can’t wait to see it. I actually haven’t seen that first documentary that they sold on Amazon that good good reviews. I’ve seen Darkside of the Ring and the WWE set which was amazing. That territory is something I could watch documentaries on for forever like some people can with WWII or something.

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twiztor

twiztor

Posted
Posted (edited)

finished watching all of 1993 WCW (*there's a handful of C-shows i'm still tracking down, but for the purpose of this post we'll just say i'm completely done) and wanted to post up my thoughts. I doubt there's too many fresh takes here, but here we are, 30 years later. These are in no particular order

  • Paul Roma in the 4 Horsemen. the 4H were basically a non-entity for the entire year. Roma wasn't a good fit, but he also didn't DO anything. a mediocre tag team with Arn Anderson that lasted 9 months. Then again, if you're tagged with Arn for that length of time and it never gets past mediocre, then maybe that's on you.
  • the NWA World Title -> big gold belt -> World Title as recognized by WCW International. i thought this was handled reasonably well, and i don't really understand the disdain this gets. I think Barry Windham's run could've been given more merit, but the Flair run is fine, and the Rude reign really elevates it.
  • the video skits. "Lost in Cleveland". "White Castle of Fear". the sting/bulldog vs vader/sid beach one. i thought these were fun. weird. cheesy. different. they were a bit jarring, but they had a lot of charm to them. some more than others, of course. would have liked to see more. They're certainly better than any of the 'Dungeon of Doom' skits.
  • British Bulldog. why was he even here? he showed up, had a main event-adjacent run, and then disappeared. a complete waste of a stint, and honestly left me much more sour on Davey than i had been previously.
  • Hollywood Blondes. definitely a breath of fresh air in the bland and unremarkable tag scene. the deal with Steamboat/Douglas and the masked title switch was just pretty bizarre, but i guess what can you do? the team itself didn't get nearly long enough together. we're talking less than a year!
  • Ron Simmons. we start the year off directly after he lost the world title back to Vader. and from there, he just..... exists? i believe there was an injury involved, but he just doesn't do ANYTHING all year. kind of floats between face and heel, then there's a shitty mentor/mentee angle with Ice Train that sucks (i blame this on Ice Train, who sucks).
  • Disney tapings. look, all of the c-shows are jobber shows. this move didn't effect my viewing whatsoever.
  • Vinnie Vegas. i liked the character and thought it had more legs than what was given. It was also cool to see Big Sky, who i previously only knew as Sabretooth from the first X-Men movie in 2000. 
  • Yoshi Kwan. Charlie Norris. i actually liked the look of Kwan. look, i know it's "yellow peril" racism, but it was certainly a look that set Chris Champion apart. everything else about the gimmick was pretty trash, but i think something that's not done with racist intent but keeping some of the same physical characteristics could work in the right environment. please don't hate me.
    Charlie Norris is a name i had read LONG before i ever saw him. i always assumed it was somebody doing a LEGALLY DISTINCT Chuck Norris character. how wrong i was. Charlie was a lame Native American character. He wasn't particularly good or memorable. It sounds like WCW wanted their own Tatanka, but Norris didn't want to play into stereotypes. Kudos to him, but once they got past the NA theme, he really had little else to offer.
  • Steve Austin vs. Dustin Rhodes. these guys gelled together fantastically. i know they previously feuded over the TV Title, but this definitely felt like a life feud that would see them rise through the ranks and eventually both be multiple WCW World champions, trading the belt back and forth. it seems unfeasible that within 18 months, both men are released from the company. And man, Dustin got done dirty by WWF. seeing "the Natural" probably wouldn't have worked in the Attitude Era, but he (the worker) had a much higher ceiling than Goldust (the character) did. 
  • Why was Starrcade on a Monday? that can't have been good for PPV buys.
Edited by twiztor
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Cobra Commander

Cobra Commander

Posted
Posted
20 minutes ago, twiztor said:

Why was Starrcade on a Monday? that can't have been good for PPV buys.

Starrcade wasn’t on a Sunday for a few years in the 90s

1992 was a Monday, 1994 was a Tuesday, 1995 was a Wednesday.

Christmas was on a Sunday in 1994. I’d guess a few of those years involved some stupidly plausible scenario about scheduling it when cable companies weren’t taking a day off for Christmas to keep the orders flowing.

Unrelated… take your pick for “guy you’re surprised Richard Land has 2001/2002 entrance footage of”

 

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nate

nate

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, twiztor said:

finished watching all of 1993 WCW (*there's a handful of C-shows i'm still tracking down, but for the purpose of this post we'll just say i'm completely done) and wanted to post up my thoughts. I doubt there's too many fresh takes here, but here we are, 30 years later. These are in no particular order

  • Paul Roma in the 4 Horsemen. the 4H were basically a non-entity for the entire year. Roma wasn't a good fit, but he also didn't DO anything. a mediocre tag team with Arn Anderson that lasted 9 months. Then again, if you're tagged with Arn for that length of time and it never gets past mediocre, then maybe that's on you.
  • the NWA World Title -> big gold belt -> World Title as recognized by WCW International. i thought this was handled reasonably well, and i don't really understand the disdain this gets. I think Barry Windham's run could've been given more merit, but the Flair run is fine, and the Rude reign really elevates it.
  • the video skits. "Lost in Cleveland". "White Castle of Fear". the sting/bulldog vs vader/sid beach one. i thought these were fun. weird. cheesy. different. they were a bit jarring, but they had a lot of charm to them. some more than others, of course. would have liked to see more. They're certainly better than any of the 'Dungeon of Doom' skits.
  • British Bulldog. why was he even here? he showed up, had a main event-adjacent run, and then disappeared. a complete waste of a stint, and honestly left me much more sour on Davey than i had been previously.
  • Hollywood Blondes. definitely a breath of fresh air in the bland and unremarkable tag scene. the deal with Steamboat/Douglas and the masked title switch was just pretty bizarre, but i guess what can you do? the team itself didn't get nearly long enough together. we're talking less than a year!
  • Ron Simmons. we start the year off directly after he lost the world title back to Vader. and from there, he just..... exists? i believe there was an injury involved, but he just doesn't do ANYTHING all year. kind of floats between face and heel, then there's a shitty mentor/mentee angle with Ice Train that sucks (i blame this on Ice Train, who sucks).
  • Disney tapings. look, all of the c-shows are jobber shows. this move didn't effect my viewing whatsoever.
  • Vinnie Vegas. i liked the character and thought it had more legs than what was given. It was also cool to see Big Sky, who i previously only knew as Sabretooth from the first X-Men movie in 2000. 
  • Yoshi Kwan. Charlie Norris. i actually liked the look of Kwan. look, i know it's "yellow peril" racism, but it was certainly a look that set Chris Champion apart. everything else about the gimmick was pretty trash, but i think something that's not done with racist intent but keeping some of the same physical characteristics could work in the right environment. please don't hate me.
    Charlie Norris is a name i had read LONG before i ever saw him. i always assumed it was somebody doing a LEGALLY DISTINCT Chuck Norris character. how wrong i was. Charlie was a lame Native American character. He wasn't particularly good or memorable. It sounds like WCW wanted their own Tatanka, but Norris didn't want to play into stereotypes. Kudos to him, but once they got past the NA theme, he really had little else to offer.
  • Steve Austin vs. Dustin Rhodes. these guys gelled together fantastically. i know they previously feuded over the TV Title, but this definitely felt like a life feud that would see them rise through the ranks and eventually both be multiple WCW World champions, trading the belt back and forth. it seems unfeasible that within 18 months, both men are released from the company. And man, Dustin got done dirty by WWF. seeing "the Natural" probably wouldn't have worked in the Attitude Era, but he (the worker) had a much higher ceiling than Goldust (the character) did. 
  • Why was Starrcade on a Monday? that can't have been good for PPV buys.

You may have given OSW several ideas for their next story arcs.

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Elsalvajeloco

Elsalvajeloco

Posted
Posted

IMO Paul Roma definitely wasn't even close to the textbook definition of the worst Horsemen ever. While Roma didn't exactly set the world on fire, he is a guy if he was about two or three inches taller or definitely a half foot taller, he would have been in the WWF developmental system. Pretty good athlete and good look. However, in that time period, he was a sum of the parts type guy. He had everything except the aforementioned height but he couldn't make it all fit together. I dunno why Power and Glory split up (guessing the pairing itself was just to keep those dudes busy) but you can understand why he was frustrated when he left WWF. He does some good work with the Young Stallions. That doesn't work cause Roma and Powers couldn't get along (if you want to believe Roma, Powers was a bit of a fuck up). He goes back to being an enhancement talent but it is clear he is way too over qualified for that. Then, they put him with Slick and Hercules. They really mesh but WWF really doesn't have plans for them other than be cannon fodder in the tag team division that was quickly becoming devalued. So when he gets to WCW he has that chip on his shoulder. I don't see anyone who has been dealt that hand turning down joining the revamped Four Horsemen. That was probably his career break. Problem is he didn't fit that mold obviously, and it just ended up with Roma tagging up with random people again.

And also in his defense, being on the verge of wrapping up 1994 myself, I can say he is much better in Pretty Wonderful than with Arn. The Arn pairing doesn't work in ring cause both guys pretty much do some of the same things. To be fair, Arn after the Sid incident is the ultimate utility guy and doesn't really figure into things outside of the feud with Dustin in 94. He is just doing shit and the Roma pairing was just that. WCW in 1993 is a rollercoaster especially as they transition to Bischoff being in control. Every show (TV and PPV) spirals from being good to awful to very good to unwatchable to back to okay. It stabilizes a bit in 1994. YMMV with how much you love American Made Hulk Hogan if at all in the 2nd half of the year, but they at least have a viable focal point. WWF in 1994 is stable for the first three or four months, dips a bit after WrestleMania X, and then just falls off a goddamn cliff after SummerSlam 1994. I dunno if Vince felt the pressure of Hogan in WCW or the trial ending over the summer made him a bit too cocky, but the creative component of WWF in the final four months of 1994 is all time bad. Anyone who constantly talks about Diesel being the worst drawing WWF champ needs to do a deep dive for 1994 cause that's unfair to ANYONE who was going to be WWF champion in this era. 

 

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Cobra Commander

Cobra Commander

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Cobra Commander said:

Unrelated… take your pick for “guy you’re surprised Richard Land has 2001/2002 entrance footage of”

 

Also Curt Hennig really did spend a bit of his 2002 WWF run working with OVW guys in dark matches, which is probably a smart way to use a veteran wrestler

I'd think that Mr. Perfect/Bautista would have been a better first gimmick for Batista in the WWE than D-Von/Bautista if only Hennig didn't get fired the first time because he got drunk on a plane and tried to wrestle Brock Lesnar.

There's also a Mike Awesome/Shelton Benjamin dark match from late 2001 which feels like a matchup that would be an interesting 5 minute match.

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The Great ML

The Great ML

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Posted
On 12/22/2023 at 6:33 PM, Phantom Lord said:

I went out and saw it last night and thought it was pretty good. Some of it was over dramatized and the time lines are all off, but despite that it was really good. MJF does at least get some screen time. I wish they would have kept his part in and dwelled on it because Fritz was a bastard for doing the old fake cousin gimmick right after another one of his kids died.

Without being too spoilerly, if anything they didn't go in enough on Fritz and the stuff he did. I guess Kevin still had some love and respect for him.

Timelines are terribly messed up. Things that never happened on syndicated or local television here in DFW. Conflating a worked match finish as real life locker room drama. But to me the most jarring was the casting choice of Kerry Von Erich. The actor portraying him could have been better chosen as young Chris Von Erich, had he been written in the script. 
I fully expected things like this, so all in all, it didn’t damper my enthusiasm for the film…sad as it was. Bring Kleenex.

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BloodyChamp

BloodyChamp

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Posted

I lost the ability to watch obsessively in late 1992 until 1994. I’ve since caught up and some of the better 1993 stuff you mentioned, while good, just wasn’t original. Sting vs Vader was original at the time but the skits were not, the Bulldog stuff was not, and Flair vs Sting for the 100th time was not. That was also possibly their worst match vs each other.

Arn vs Barry was a great match but 1 thing in it annoyed the heck out of me lol! Arn was working a bigger babyface bit than Brad Armstrong and Doug Gilbert combined Xs 1989 Flyin Brain. Him jumping up and down happy and smiling was so silly lol! 

Bulldog wrestling in WCW was fun but he lost interest fast and started no showing until they fired him on purpose IIRC. 

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SirSmUgly

SirSmUgly

Posted
Posted
13 hours ago, twiztor said:

 

  • Paul Roma in the 4 Horsemen. the 4H were basically a non-entity for the entire year. Roma wasn't a good fit, but he also didn't DO anything. a mediocre tag team with Arn Anderson that lasted 9 months. Then again, if you're tagged with Arn for that length of time and it never gets past mediocre, then maybe that's on you.

Roma and Herc were a legitimately fun tag team. I think, like Davey Boy, Roma was just better-suited to the New York style of match.

 

Quote

the NWA World Title -> big gold belt -> World Title as recognized by WCW International. i thought this was handled reasonably well, and i don't really understand the disdain this gets. I think Barry Windham's run could've been given more merit, but the Flair run is fine, and the Rude reign really elevates it.

The Rude run is great, but I honestly forget about that Windham run. I was just thrilled that the International Title gave Rude an opportunity to have a world title run, even if his run felt like the (whoever is the secondary WWE world champ right now) to Vader's/Sting's Roman Reigns.

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Matt D

Matt D

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Posted

I’ve little desire to see The Iron Claw. I blame listening to hundreds of audio files ripped from shoot videos while on a commuter bus in the 00s and freaking RF wasting every wrestler’s time asking them about how much the Von Erichs liked to party. 

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porksweats

porksweats

Posted
Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, AxB said:

The guy playing Kerry Von Erich, Jeremy Allen White, he's in the Next Big Thing spot in Hollywood. 

Much like Tom Cruise as Jack Reacher in the Reacher movies, he portrays an energy much bigger, and suits the person/character he's being despite their small stature.

Edited by porksweats
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