July 2022 Wrestling Discussion

[cwoy2j]

1 hour ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

I would like to exempt Southern wrestling from this, though. It has its own problems, but babyfaces in JCP or Florida or wherever had friends who would band together with them when faced with a threat. There was a sense that you have an obligation to look out for your own in the context of heels looking out for heels and babyfaces looking out for babyfaces. It's really WWE's "ruthless aggression" mentality that's at fault here (as exemplified by the Lone Babyface Uebermensch trope that's basically been a part of the company forever). 

It's funny that you mentioned Florida because JJ Dillon specifically talked about that in his book when describing how good of a booker Eddie Graham was. He said that if there was going to be a heel beatdown of a face in the show, Eddie would book it for later in the show. He'd then specifically book Jack Brisco or another top face to wrestle earlier and have Gordon Solie do an interview with him and they'd poignantly drop a line like, "Thanks for your time Jack, I know we have to make this short as you have to go visit the children's hospital/sick kid/charity work/insert good guy deed here". The face would then do a short promo and then leave and that way later in the show, when the heels are running roughshod, the fans weren't like, "where the eff is Brisco? He's supposed to be such a good guy and he can't help his friends?!" Plus it put even more heat on the heels because the fans would think, "those guys are assholes. They waited until Brisco left! Wait till he gets back and hears about this!"

Edited July 28, 2022 by cwoy2j

[odessasteps]

Babyfaces, as "good guys" should help each other because its the right thing to do. Heels might work together gecause of ulterior motives, but not the faces.

[SirSmUgly]

1 hour ago, odessasteps said:

Babyfaces, as "good guys" should help each other because its the right thing to do. Heels might work together gecause of ulterior motives, but not the faces.

Sometimes heels helping other heels because they are genuine friends works, too. Ole being bitter about having to ditch his real friends to trick Dusty in Georgia was a good example of this. Sometimes shitheels really do value the company and friendship of other shitheels 

[Technico Support]

2 hours ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

I would like to exempt Southern wrestling from this, though.

Oh absolutely.  This is just WWE I'm talking about, where every babyface is a strong, self-made island unto themselves and never sneezes.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Technico Support

[Johnny Sorrow]

4 hours ago, Technico Support said:

LOOOOL they turned Lacey Evans heel?  Didn't they do a bunch of vignettes about her overcoming a broken home, drugs, and all kinds of adversity?  This company, man. 

They had to turn her heel. The crowds didn't care about her story and didn't care about her. 

[Log]

2 hours ago, cwoy2j said:

It's funny that you mentioned Florida because JJ Dillon specifically talked about that in his book when describing how good of a booker Eddie Graham was. He said that if there was going to be a heel beatdown of a face in the show, Eddie would book it for later in the show. He'd then specifically book Jack Brisco or another top face to wrestle earlier and have Gordon Solie do an interview with him and they'd poignantly drop a line like, "Thanks for your time Jack, I know we have to make this short as you have to go visit the children's hospital/sick kid/charity work/insert good guy deed here". The face would then do a short promo and then leave and that way later in the show, when the heels are running roughshod, the fans weren't like, "where the eff is Brisco? He's supposed to be such a good guy and he can't help his friends?!" Plus it put even more heat on the heels because the fans would think, "those guys are assholes. They waited until Brisco left! Wait till he gets back and hears about this!"

This and @Matt D’s post in this week’s Dynamite thread got me thinking. It seems to me that so much of that kind of thought going into angles/character motivations/commentary/etc may have stemmed from the fact that, back then, the people putting on a wrestling show still saw importance in convincing the audience that it was “real”. 
 

I love current wrestling, so don’t take this as a “kids these days!” comment, but I wonder how much is lost because the people putting on shows today are mainly concerned with making the show “cool”?

[odessasteps]

I'd say it's more about the cultural rise of the anti hero in all pop culture. It's prob just obvious in wresting because you are painting with broad strokes. 

[BobbyWhioux]

57 minutes ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

Sometimes heels helping other heels because they are genuine friends works, too. Ole being bitter about having to ditch his real friends to trick Dusty in Georgia was a good example of this. Sometimes shitheels really do value the company and friendship of other shitheels 

one of the reasons I love that episode of Georgia Championship Wrestling that airs the week after Ole's turn that's just everyone on the roster cutting a promo on their reaction to it is guys like Ivan Koloff being overjoyed to finally have their friend Ole back.

(also, the surreal visual of Kevin Sullivan still being in his preening beach bum babyface phase, but that's a tale for another thread)

[BobbyWhioux]

3 hours ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

I would like to exempt Southern wrestling from this, though. It has its own problems, but babyfaces in JCP or Florida or wherever had friends who would band together with them when faced with a threat. There was a sense that you have an obligation to look out for your own in the context of heels looking out for heels and babyfaces looking out for babyfaces. It's really WWE's "ruthless aggression" mentality that's at fault here (as exemplified by the Lone Babyface Uebermensch trope that's basically been a part of the company forever). 

I'm still gobsmacked by the time I saw Carmella lead a babyface cavalry charge on the Smackdown after Bayley's turn

[Dog]

4 hours ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

I would like to exempt Southern wrestling from this, though. It has its own problems, but babyfaces in JCP or Florida or wherever had friends who would band together with them when faced with a threat. There was a sense that you have an obligation to look out for your own in the context of heels looking out for heels and babyfaces looking out for babyfaces. It's really WWE's "ruthless aggression" mentality that's at fault here (as exemplified by the Lone Babyface Uebermensch trope that's basically been a part of the company forever). 

AEW bucks the trend to some degree, too.

[Tarheel Moneghetti]

3 hours ago, Johnny Sorrow said:

They had to turn her heel. The crowds didn't care about her story and didn't care about her. 

From what I’ve read in various places, the MitB crowd booed her every times she did anything.  Meltzer and Alvarez talked about it quite a bit, though Dave thinks turning her might always have been the plan.  Apparently, the response to the video packages was sort of tepid too.

To be honest, the hard-luck vignettes bored me.  Nice story, but they didn’t make me want to see more of her or the segments.

[The Natural]

One of my favourite wrestling things this year.

[Niners Fan in CT]

 

[Technico Support]

Continuing my 80s/90s WWF nostalgia watch, I almost finished Summerslam 88 and man, there' s almost nothing to write about here, but I won't let that stop me! 

Muraco vs Bravo: Was the world clamoring for a rematch of their Mania 4 bout that ended in a really dumb DQ?  Announcers reference Muraco feuding with Valentine over kayfabe injuring Billy Graham, so this is another meaningless filler match in a really bad card that's chock full of them.  Speaking of Graham, watching four matches in a row of him yelling BROTHAAAHHHH and MY MAAAN and other assorted old white guy jive talk has me wanting to rip my fucking ears off.  Also speaking of Graham, he won't shut the fuck up about powerlifting and Bravo's fake lift.  It comes off like he's trying to create his own angle where he leads Muraco into a powerlifting contest vs Bravo.  He's insufferable.  Weird finish as Muraco goes for a slam, Bravo's leg grazes the ref, who bumps and gets right back up, then Bravo hits the side slam out of nowhere for the pin.  Average match, bizarre finish, commentary that made me jealous of Marlee Matlin.  Muraco was fired less than two months later (what's the story there?) while Bravo apparently hung around for three and a half more years.  So I have that to look forward to.

Demolition (c) vs Hart Foundation: the gimmick here is that Bret & Anvil dumped Jimmy Hart but he still owns their contracts.  The jilted manager is in Demolition's corner to get revenge.  WAIT.  If he still owns their contracts, wouldn't he make more money by the Harts winning the belts?  80s WWF: Don't Think Too Hard About This Shit.  Very good match, of course, because you have three very good workers and one generational worker.  The finish, which saw the ref trying to pull Neidhart off Fuji while Ax glommed Bret with the megaphone, was too much of a retread of the Mania 4 finish for me.

Somewhere in here, the Ultimate Warrior and his tag team partner, Cocaine, are interviewed.

Bossman vs Koko: Not a lot to say about this one.  Koko is really good, Traylor is kind of a prodigy who had just gotten to the WWF.  A prison guard managed by a pimp is a weird angle but bad guys are supposed to be hypocrites, so I'll allow it.  Bossman wins with a rather unimpressive Bossman Slam.  After years of seeing guys like Abyss and Brody King catch opponents, spin them around, and just fucking plant them in the mat, this one looks like Bossman is helping Koko lay down for a nap.

MAN this show is a slog.  Jake vs Herc is next and I ffwd'd to the end.  Let me talk to you for a minute, friends.  I've got some anxiety from time to time and sometimes I watch this stuff legit thinking, about or even worrying about, what I'll write here about it.  Sometimes it stresses me out because a match comes that I just can't get into or just am not inspired by.  So I tell you what.  For my own mental health, I'll ffwd and just tell you "fuck it, this match looked like shit, there's nothing to say about it, and we'll move on."  Thanks!  Jake wins with a DDT because apparently the story here is that Heenan was too preoccupied by the main event to come out with his guy.  Can't say I blame him.

I started dozing off on the main event so I'll revisit it next time.  I will say that master politician Hogan somehow gaming Savage into wearing the red and yellow so he looks like he's just Hulk's Lil' Buddy instead of the motherfucking champeen of the world is some masterstroke genius shit.  I'm actually surprised both entered together to Savage's music instead of separately to their own themes.  I originally quoted my bud The Natural here but that is hilariously filtered    Til next time, friends!

Edited July 29, 2022 by Technico Support

[Curt McGirt]

Are there any beaches in Boston?

EDIT: I guess so, but none of them look like you'd want to sunbathe or surf on them

Edited July 29, 2022 by Curt McGirt

[zendragon]

22 hours ago, odessasteps said:

Babyfaces, as "good guys" should help each other because its the right thing to do. Heels might work together gecause of ulterior motives, but not the faces.

Cornette has mentioned this on his podcast and now it really bugs me. A babyface will be getting beaten down and no one comes to help! Where are his friends? Even if he's a loner does he have not the t of his peers? Hottest act of the last 10 years in WWE? Three fun loving guys who are real life friends

 

7 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

 

I imagine the conversation goes something like this HHH: "ole fuck face is gone"

Edited July 29, 2022 by zendragon

[cwoy2j]

Watching one of my "comfort food" matches in Tyler Bate vs. WALTER and wondering..........why in the fuck isn't Tyler Bate on my tv playing the wrestling machine underdog babyface against Roman Reigns right now? Tyler kicking out at 1 of WALTER's powerbomb is legit one of my few "holy shit" moments from the past 10 years or so.  I don't know about ya'll but I need to see a Wrestlemania crowd chanting, "TYLER BATE...OHHHH...TYLER BATE" to the beat of Saturday Night by the Bay City Rollers.

[Eivion]

24 minutes ago, cwoy2j said:

Watching one of my "comfort food" matches in Tyler Bate vs. WALTER and wondering..........why in the fuck isn't Tyler Bate on my tv playing the wrestling machine underdog babyface against Roman Reigns right now? Tyler kicking out at 1 of WALTER's powerbomb is legit one of my few "holy shit" moments from the past 10 years or so.  I don't know about ya'll but I need to see a Wrestlemania crowd chanting, "TYLER BATE...OHHHH...TYLER BATE" to the beat of Saturday Night by the Bay City Rollers.

I'm still befuddled they went with Dragunov as the guy to dethrone WALTER instead of Bate. Feels like Bate should have been moved over to regular NXT already if he wasn't going to lead the UK brand.

[AxB]

Tyler Bate is in the Gresham/ Silver height bracket. They had to hide him from Vince.

[Eivion]

3 hours ago, AxB said:

Tyler Bate is in the Gresham/ Silver height bracket. They had to hide him from Vince.

Hey now, he isn't quite that short. 

[Infinit]

12 hours ago, zendragon said:

Cornette has mentioned this on his podcast and now it really bugs me. A babyface will be getting beaten down and no one comes to help! Where are his friends? Even if he's a loner does he have not the t of his peers? Hottest act of the last 10 years in WWE? Three fun loving guys who are real life friends

That's one thing that I think helped Hogan become such a mega babyface, especially at the start in 84/85.  The babyface locker room always had his back. Lots of instances of him standing tall with Andre, JYD, Tito etc. 

Compare that to recent Vince booking like Cena to make out with his buddy Zack Ryder's gf. Which served no booking purpose other than to make the top babyface look either like an asshole or a dummy. 

[AxB]

7 hours ago, Eivion said:

Hey now, he isn't quite that short. 

He is. The top of his head is the same height as my chin. That makes him 5'3-5'4". Exactly the same height as those lads. He's just had his height less exposed because he's been hiding in NXT UK where almost everyone is under 6 foot.

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

I think it also blends into the argument about ensuring guys don't get lost in the shuffle and everyone has something to do/direction.

In that era - guys went years where their entire purpose was just feuding with a particular manager and their latest signing, even across promotions. Your reason to exist was to fight the Heenan Family/Devastation Inc/the Horsemen etc.

.....although that really didn't go so well for Kazarian.

[Eivion]

34 minutes ago, AxB said:

He is. The top of his head is the same height as my chin. That makes him 5'3-5'4". Exactly the same height as those lads. He's just had his height less exposed because he's been hiding in NXT UK where almost everyone is under 6 foot.

His official height is listed as 5'7. Still not as bad as Adam Cole's I suppose.

[The Comedian]

13 hours ago, zendragon said:

I imagine the conversation goes something like this HHH: "ole fuck face is gone"

Trips will probably have a lot of similar conversations in the coming years I'd imagine...

"Hey Miro. Yeah, the old sack of shit is gone. We're already coming up with new Rusev Day shirt concepts for your return."

"Hey Keith. Yeah, the bastard's gone. No more singlets or Bearcats. Just a big push on your return."

"Hey Mox. Yeah, fuck that old piece of shit. We already have you main eventing Mania against Roman. You can gig every PPV if you want. Send Renee my love."