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7 hours ago, Custos said:

So you’re basically asking for 5 Jimmy Del Ray clones to be inserted into each promotion? 
Im on board, but it might be a bit too much for the female demographic to take.

Behold, your new Demo God

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8 hours ago, Morganti said:

Stoned hot take

Invisible man vs invisible stan is the best improv ever done that will never get it's due cuz it was wrestling.

I didn't watch much Chikara but that match made me really appreciate Bryce for pulling that off.  It's one of those things where if you aren't fully committed to it then it won't work so hats off to him.  Even now while I get whatever criticisms about him I think there's something nice about him hamming it up on the Dark shows.

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Disgusting rasslers who could work were the foundation on which this thing was built! Jimmy Del Rey, Adrian Adonis, Abdullah the Butcher, then if you widen that goal post by an inch and include the disgusting guys who had that 1% of something that made women want them and men to be them that was it. That made you hate them even more when they were heels. Those guys would include the Freebirds, the Poffos, and some more. 

Something about every single bead of sweat on every unshaven chest hair of those guys made me want to puke but it also made me want to be as badass as them lol! Then when they would bust out the make up sometimes and you could see all their face wrinkles in it because they didn’t have the Sting baby face. 

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you know people where like "why is AEW having QT Marshall doing a program with Cody?" then his segments pops a huge rating with the 34-45 demo. Middle aged house wives love them some QT Marshall and his bowling shirts

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Posted (edited)

1. The little Madonna reference in the New Day's finisher is brilliant. (Midnight Hour - > Feel the power!)

 

2. Head of the Table Roman Reigns is a character that actively repels me from his parts of shows. Samoan supremacist - sure. All-smothering godfather figure, also good. Doing both at once connects them in a way that I think unintentionally positions the latter as a consequence of ethnicity, or as an authentic extension of the ethnicity, and that makes me really uneasy.

Also the matches are plodding and the nutshot-kickout spot should be scouted by any subsequent challengers.

Edited by Iron Moose
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Wrestlers making modest improvements outside of the WWE system being touted as "indictments" of the PC is hilarious. Of course there's no one-size-fits-all approach to everyone's development. But it's fascinating to watch popular narratives take hold around flawed ideas that people desperately want to be true. 

On this same tip, when the topic comes up of who the PC has really developed and who the PC's success stories are, it's funny to see people talking about person XYorZ having previous training here or there or previous experience here or there as an attempt to take away from the fact that person XYorZ has experienced most of their growth inside a system they despise. The system must be afforded as little credit as possible, for the sake of the narrative. 

If people want to quibble about a stale product with shitty booking for many of these warehoused bodies, that's one thing. But to bend over backwards to deny the growth many performers experience in this system and deny its overall success is just wholesale inventing an alternate reality. 

As usual, thanks Dave for amplifying nonsense for the screaming hordes. 

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Not much point being able to have a good match, if all you ever do is have bad ones.

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Posted (edited)

I guess if you think literally every WWE match is bad, which is your right. I find the Thunderdome nigh-on unwatchable outside of things I have an absolute burning need to see, so it's entirely possible you know about something I missed. But I can't reasonably look at the Mania night one main event and conclude that this system isn't up to snuff when it comes to developing high-end talent who deliver. And it's up and down their roster. I see a system that is doing an exceptional job in its talent development. 

Edited by John from Cincinnati
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Posted (edited)

I hate the term "IWC" because it makes it seem like it's just some collective hive mind. I also hate how many fans online use it and then fall over themselves to try to say they're not part of it in order to be contrarian. "Those darn indy IWC smark darlings! But I don't like those guys! I'm not part of the internet wrestling community even though I talk about wrestling on the internet every chance I get."

Edited by cwoy2j
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Yeah, so this talking point seems to have mainly been brought up about Conti, but as you say, there’s plenty of examples of good PC-developed talent. If anything, the Conti example is more an indictment of how bloated the WWE roster is.

Conti’s basically gone from no more than a name jobber in NXT, to a more featured role in AEW and she’s stepped up to it. But look at all the women that were above Conti in NXT alone. If AEW had all that talent would Conti really have been given this opportunity. The mammoth pandemic Dark tapings have also helped here as it’s unlikely Conti would have had as much time to shine pre-pandemic.

I do think there’s legit criticisms to be made in how WWE transitions some of their PC talent to TV and more featured roles, but the Conti talking point isn’t the gotcha that people seem to think it is.

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The "WWE PC didn't train anybody worth it" might be the fucking worst, most incorrect take Hoarding Kingmaker ever made, and the worst take of his ever brought over to this board that the  "Tony Good, Vince Bad" crew ever ate up with a spoon.  

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30 minutes ago, cwoy2j said:

I hate the term "IWC" because it makes it seem like it's just some collective hive mind. I also hate how many fans online use it and then fall over themselves to try to say they're not part of it in order to be contrarian. "Those darn indy IWC smark darlings! But I don't like those guys! I'm not part of the internet wrestling community even though I talk about wrestling on the internet every chance I get."

It made more sense in the mid 90s when the number was much smaller and the number of outlets was small enough (rspw, AOL, prodigy,..) that it might have actually been a "community." 

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Again, I don’t think that’s an indictment on the PC though, it’s an indictment on how WWE uses (or rather wastes) so many of their wrestlers. Realistically, NXT is more super-indy/third brand than actual developmental. I wouldn’t class Ricochet as having really been in WWE developmental. He was a 10 year plus vet when he signed and was pretty much immediately put on TV in a featured role. I assume his time at the PC was largely about learning production stuff, where the cameras are, etc.

Has Ricochet became a worse worker since 2017? I think that’s unlikely. If he’s having worse matches I think that’s because of the role he’s playing. I think there’s various criticisms of WWE’s general shitiness which are being conflated to make a point about the PC being a failure.

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3 minutes ago, Kev said:

Again, I don’t think that’s an indictment on the PC though, it’s an indictment on how WWE uses (or rather wastes) so many of their wrestlers. Realistically, NXT is more super-indy/third brand than actual developmental. I wouldn’t class Ricochet as having really been in WWE developmental. He was a 10 year plus vet when he signed and was pretty much immediately put on TV in a featured role. I assume his time at the PC was largely about learning production stuff, where the cameras are, etc.

Has Ricochet became a worse worker since 2017? I think that’s unlikely. If he’s having worse matches I think that’s because of the role he’s playing. I think there’s various criticisms of WWE’s general shitiness which are being conflated to make a point about the PC being a failure.

Exactly this. Vets with major indie/international clout who are being brought in to almost immediately have main events on high profile TV shows aren't being "developed" so much as they're having some perceived edges smoothed over and having it drilled into their heads how it's done here. If one prefers them having matches with Will Ospreay out in the wild rather than against Sheamus on Raw, I wouldn't seek to disabuse anyone of that. But I don't think that reflects a failing of the PC, and is not reflective of their successes taking people who are greener and have far less profile and shaping them into something. 

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They brought up a whole generation of exceptionally gifted women through the PC, and those women outside of Becky Lynch had limited indie experience. IDK where this talking point about the PC comes from; they're not going to hit on everyone. That's impossible.

What I do think is fair criticism is that they don't give the talent enough chances to do meaningful work in the midcard and to get better. Where is the structure to their shows? They have all these titles and all these hours of programming, but nothing really mattered except for the top two titles unless a special talent specifically and briefly elevated another title (like The New Day and their heel tag run in 2015 or w/e year that was). From what I can tell, that hasn't changed.

AEW isn't great, either, but they throw their rookies on TV and often give them stuff to do. Hell, even just throwing some of those lower-card folks on NXT weekly or the tertiary shows makes sense. You have a network! Do something to get those folks working on TV and in front of a crowd (when crowds are back). 

WWE's issue isn't the PC. It's that they don't have a show that operates like Dark. Why have, let me grab a name out of the aether, Tino Sabbatelli for six years, but have him only work house shows off TV. Let him sink or swim even if he's green as hell. 

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Tino Sabatelli had a match on AEW Dark. His performance was unimpressive.

And then AEW shitcanned him for leaking Dynamite spoilers.

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On 5/13/2021 at 11:46 PM, AxB said:

If you take Joel Gertner's old "Slim, trim, buff, cut, lean, ripped, chiselled and jeeeeeyacked" deal, and replace it with "Girthy, Beefy, Greasy, Sleazy-looking, Mustachioed Mullet Heeeaaaad", that would be a really good introduction.

Weren't Girthy, Beefy, Greasy & Sleazy Jerry Lawler’s tag team partners against Doink & The Dinks?

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, AxB said:

Tino Sabatelli had a match on AEW Dark. His performance was unimpressive.

And then AEW shitcanned him for leaking Dynamite spoilers.

Was it him or Pineapple Pete since he Vanished around that time? 

Edited by Hail Sabin
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Suge D (as Pineapple Pete) is booked for the Jericho Cruise this year. Kind of implies he isn't on AEW's shitlist. Meltzer said they stopped using him as a budget cut thing... basically they made the call not to sign him, and then decided that using him at all was unnecessary.

But Jericho said on his podcast that they knew who leaked the spoilers, they wouldn't be back, and then said NXT reject. And Suge was never in NXT, whilst Sabatelli very much was.

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Posted (edited)

I don't think the Performance Center does a bad job at all.  The purpose of the Performance Center is not to build what we've traditionally thought of as "professional wrestlers."  They take both inexperienced and experienced wrestlers and mold them into exactly what they want for their TV product.  I've personally talked shit on WWE for taking guys I enjoyed watching on the indies and removing most of what made them enjoyable, dumbing down their attributes to the safest, lowest common denominator style, but that's just an emotional argument and is misunderstanding the whole point.  Meltzer makes the same mistake when he says "these guy could have a better match anywhere else."  Well yeah, but that' not the point.  WWE knows exactly what they need for the content they produce, and they are trying to create performers that work inside their criteria. 

Edited by Technico Support
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19 hours ago, Kev said:

Yeah, so this talking point seems to have mainly been brought up about Conti, but as you say, there’s plenty of examples of good PC-developed talent. If anything, the Conti example is more an indictment of how bloated the WWE roster is.

Conti’s basically gone from no more than a name jobber in NXT, to a more featured role in AEW and she’s stepped up to it. But look at all the women that were above Conti in NXT alone. If AEW had all that talent would Conti really have been given this opportunity. The mammoth pandemic Dark tapings have also helped here as it’s unlikely Conti would have had as much time to shine pre-pandemic.

I do think there’s legit criticisms to be made in how WWE transitions some of their PC talent to TV and more featured roles, but the Conti talking point isn’t the gotcha that people seem to think it is.

Looking at the 2020 NXT Women's roster (based off a search I don't remember last week), Conti could realistically be put behind 8 women pretty easily in terms of Shayna, Rhea Ripley, Io, Bianca, Candice, Dakota Kai, Tegan Nox and Mia Yim. She's on equal postion or above Xia Li, Aliyah, Vanessa Borne, Duke and Shafir so she had to compete with them at well.

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