Your wrestling HOT TAKES

[Technico Support]

He'd be a modern day Eddie Gilbert, a smaller, conniving, absolute piece of shit heel if NXT hadn't ruined him by making the larger audience's first experience of him that of a cool heel. 

I'm trying my damnest to let @just drew's slander of my beloved PWG slide.  ROH went through many eras as well, and "strictly for the workrate dorks" was just one of them.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

Adam Cole as a nuts and bolts worker is fundamentally indistinguishable from guys like Seth Rollins, Jay White, and Buddy Matthews. Perfectly fine at the mechanics but nothing that really stands out for me personally. The important thing is the crowd participation aspect. If you have a thing people like singing along with or chanting or saying when you do your entrance, chances are you're gonna get pushed. Cole has two, ergo he gets a push. Matthews has none, ergo he is the third tier on the spooky weirdo team.

It's simple mathematics, y'all.

[FourPostMassacre]

So are the Young Bucks the Michael Bay of pro wrestling? 

[SirSmUgly]

Hot take, maybe: People underrated Hulk Hogan for a long time on the internet, and now they overrate him. He was appropriate for the time and era in which he was most popular, and he had very good timing on his comebacks, but he was mostly just mediocre. 

The only time he was ever better than "slightly above average" was actually in 2002, when he worked matches to his limitations and incorporated it into his "fading legend" gimmick where he couldn't go supernova at will anymore and would lose matches that he normally would have won fifteen years earlier as a result. I'd only really want to watch '02 Hogan at this point because that's the only version of him who fully understood how to work to his age and limitations. 

 

[supremebve]

1 hour ago, FourPostMassacre said:

So are the Young Bucks the Michael Bay of pro wrestling? 

This makes entirely too much sense to me.  Bad Boys and The Rock are both top tier action movies, but as much as I love those two movies he seems to have expanded on all the wrong parts of those movies to build the rest of his career.

[Log]

1 hour ago, SirSmUgly said:

Hot take, maybe: People underrated Hulk Hogan for a long time on the internet, and now they overrate him. He was appropriate for the time and era in which he was most popular, and he had very good timing on his comebacks, but he was mostly just mediocre. 

The only time he was ever better than "slightly above average" was actually in 2002, when he worked matches to his limitations and incorporated it into his "fading legend" gimmick where he couldn't go supernova at will anymore and would lose matches that he normally would have won fifteen years earlier as a result. I'd only really want to watch '02 Hogan at this point because that's the only version of him who fully understood how to work to his age and limitations. 

 

I'd say Hogan pre-1987 or so is a lot of fun. His matches are very chaotic. He'd bleed a ton, and there was a lot of movement in them. Once he fell into his formula, that's where things go downhill.

[SirSmUgly]

36 minutes ago, Log said:

I'd say Hogan pre-1987 or so is a lot of fun. His matches are very chaotic. He'd bleed a ton, and there was a lot of movement in them. Once he fell into his formula, that's where things go downhill.

I am lower on Hogan as a brawler than maybe everyone here at DVDVR, which I think is why I disagree with you. 

He's definitely a better worker pre-'87, and he's more adept at brawling than anything else, but I don't think he's actually all that good as a brawler. Stuff like the Slaughter Boot Camp match in 1990 or whatever it was that I think is consensus really good to most people who post here left me unmoved, for example. 

[Technico Support]

During my 80s WWF rewatch, I was really struck by how many of the workers who, by "conventional wisdom," I should have considered awful, were actually average or above average.  I blame several factors and hot damn do I love bulleted lists:

• Kayfabe separation of wrestling styles blending with shoot separation of styles: We believed that guys with "ring technician" gimmicks were also good workers.  We also believed the inverse to be true.  Of course, it's no coincidence that the better workers were also given the "scientific wrestler" gimmick and vise versa.  But I think we somehow learned to ignore all those people in the middle.  Terry Taylor was incredibly average despite having a "ring technician" gimmick, while Hercules Hernandez was a real revelation when he turned out to not be the drizzling shits.  What I'm saying is that gimmicks and wrestling styles had a lot of overlap that swayed how we viewed certain wrestlers.
• The Meltzerification of wrestling discourse: Early Meltzer was fucking insufferable.  If you weren't Flair, Steamboat, etc., you were likely a shit worker to him.  He was firmly in one camp and left no room for all the good workers out there who weren't doing flashy scientific stuff.  With my generation being the first to come up 1) 1000% non kayfabe and 2) online, Meltzer's views absolutely influenced how we all thought about wrestling.
• The nature of the business then: Simply put, guys who were just absolutely horrible, more often than not, did not make it to the big stages.  There are always exceptions to the rule, like Warlord, of course.  But you shouldn't be shocked to see that 80s WWF musclehead #4 is actually competent when training and the indy system back then went  a long way to rule out the choads.

This is all to say that Hogan wasn't nearly as bad in the 80s as we thought he was when we were younger smart marks.  And all the guys who were blown away seeing Hogan do three more moves vs Muta were definitely in the pro-Meltzer, "a few more scientific moves = hey, he's a better worker than we thought" camp.  Hogan was a passable worker long before he hit Mutoh with a drop toehold.

Edited November 13, 2024 by Technico Support

[SirSmUgly]

I don't see how anyone could have watched Herc in Mid-South and thought that he sucked, but even not considering that, Power & Glory unironically ruled. 

Saying that Meltzer ruined smarkdom by amplifying his personal wrestling tastes through the Observer and thus normalizing those tastes as the proper way to define what makes a good worker is a deep freeze take, though. 

[supremebve]

48 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

• The Meltzerification of wrestling discourse: Early Meltzer was fucking insufferable.  If you weren't Flair, Steamboat, etc., you were likely a shit worker to him.  He was firmly in one camp and left no room for all the good workers out there who weren't doing flashy scientific stuff.  With my generation being the first to come up 1) 1000% non kayfabe and 2) online, Meltzer's views absolutely influenced how we all thought about wrestling.

We call this the Lex Luger corollary.  Everyone online spent about 15 years telling us that he sucked, but if you watch Lex Luger matches he more than carries his weight for most of his run.  If he was working holds and jumping off the top rope, he's remembered differently, but he was a really athletic big guy who worked exactly like a guy with his build and his athleticism should work.   

 

[odessasteps]

I maintain that Dave may have done as much damage to the business as promoter Vince (not human being Vince). 

[J.H.]

The reassessment of Hogan can be started in the old DVDVRs, as even DEAN~! cited things he liked Hogan did on Nitro in 98. Like legit praise!

If that isn't a starting point, I don't know what is!

James

[Technico Support]

40 minutes ago, supremebve said:

We call this the Lex Luger corollary.  Everyone online spent about 15 years telling us that he sucked, but if you watch Lex Luger matches he more than carries his weight for most of his run.  If he was working holds and jumping off the top rope, he's remembered differently, but he was a really athletic big guy who worked exactly like a guy with his build and his athleticism should work.   

 

Luger not getting a world title run earlier than his “in case of emergency, break glass” reign in 1991 was criminal promotional negligence.  Fuck everyone involved with the 88 Bash finish in particular.  I just finished WCW 1989 and, as I move into 1990, Luger’s amazing heel run getting sacrificed to Flair because Sting is hurt is one thing I’m dreading watching again.

Edited November 13, 2024 by Technico Support

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

38 minutes ago, supremebve said:

We call this the Lex Luger corollary.  Everyone online spent about 15 years telling us that he sucked, but if you watch Lex Luger matches he more than carries his weight for most of his run.  If he was working holds and jumping off the top rope, he's remembered differently, but he was a really athletic big guy who worked exactly like a guy with his build and his athleticism should work.   

 

Luger was really good for like 90% of his run. The exception is 1999/2000 WCW, which is more that era rather than anything he was doing wrong. Actually, a lot of what people fault on Luger has to do with bad booking. His 1989 heel run was fantastic and if he was allowed to cultivate that character more, rather than being flip-flopped heel and babyface like he was, he'd be fine. It's also hard to imagine anyone else being the heart of WCW in 1997 like Luger was.

[SirSmUgly]

'99/'00 Luger is still useful in skits and has excellent comedic timing. Even if he was washed in ring by that time, his cowardly heel persona was a small bright spot on those shows.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

Just now, SirSmUgly said:

'99/'00 Luger is still useful in skits and has excellent comedic timing. Even if he was washed in ring by that time, his cowardly heel persona was a small bright spot on those shows.

Luger's comic timing is incredible. There's a promo in 1996 where Sting and Luger break into the production truck to take a NWO video off the air, and as they're being kicked out by security, Sting shouts that there's free pot pie and Mountain Dew in his trailer, and Luger just casually says "that sounds excellent". It always makes me laugh.

[Ramo2653]

19 hours ago, Octopus said:

Idk if this is a hot take, but WWE developmental talent should have an NXT version of UpUpDownDown. Even if it isn’t for public consumption. It inadvertently was a great way to see the personalities of talent that struggled with charisma or were somewhat one dimensional on WWE tv. Video game fun is a way to get people’s guard down while having fun in a still competitive environment. 

Mace, Mansoor and I want to say Shane Haste used to stream and show off their personality while down in NXT. They of course would occasionally something particularly dumb but weren't big enough for it to get picked up by the larger outlets. I'd assume no one wants to head up a project like that and have to make sure they don't say anything dumb like the one NXT wrestler who told people to look up the government controlling the weather before the last round of hurricanes in Florida.

[odessasteps]

Creed has talked about how difficult it is to get everyone together now to do stuff for the channel, esp compared to the channels early (pre Covid) era. I mean, we would nt have gotten the Uno content if everyone wasn't stuck at home. 

[username]

I assume that would be less of an issue for NXT though as they are gonna all be working out of the performance center much of the time, right?

[twiztor]

10 hours ago, SirSmUgly said:

Hot take, maybe: People underrated Hulk Hogan for a long time on the internet, and now they overrate him. He was appropriate for the time and era in which he was most popular, and he had very good timing on his comebacks, but he was mostly just mediocre. 

The only time he was ever better than "slightly above average" was actually in 2002, when he worked matches to his limitations and incorporated it into his "fading legend" gimmick where he couldn't go supernova at will anymore and would lose matches that he normally would have won fifteen years earlier as a result. I'd only really want to watch '02 Hogan at this point because that's the only version of him who fully understood how to work to his age and limitations. 

 

Hogan absolutely shines in some of his "big match" moments. The WM3 Andre match is perfect. It is so easy to get lost in the spectacle of the whole thing. total magic. See also, the WM6 Warrior match. But that magic doesn't work unless there's something else to it. 

i haven't revisited 2002 Hogan, but i remember being somewhat surprised in how not terrible he was, after all those terrible years as Hollywood. 

4 hours ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said:

Luger's comic timing is incredible.

this might be cliche now, but the Lex Luger/t-shirt promo is my #1 favorite comedy clip in the history of pro wrestling:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHTj7qfnTak&t=6s&pp=ygURbGV4IGx1Z2VyIHQtc2hpcnQ%3D

[SirSmUgly]

49 minutes ago, twiztor said:

Hogan absolutely shines in some of his "big match" moments. The WM3 Andre match is perfect. It is so easy to get lost in the spectacle of the whole thing. total magic. See also, the WM6 Warrior match. But that magic doesn't work unless there's something else to it. 

I sometimes struggle to separate the wrestler's contributions to the spectacle from the road agents'/McMahon's contributions to the layout. 

Warrior was in two classics at WM 6 and WM 7, for example, and he basically stunk. How much of the spectacle is Hogan and how much is everything else around him?

I certainly think Hogan had more to do with those matches you mention than Warrior, by the way. I actually think the best argument for Hogan driving the spectacle more than the spectacle drove him is the WM 18 match against the Rock, which is pretty much a fucking masterpiece in no small part because of the Hulkster.

[zendragon]

11 hours ago, Technico Support said:

Luger not getting a world title run earlier than his “in case of emergency, break glass” reign in 1991 was criminal promotional negligence.  Fuck everyone involved with the 88 Bash finish in particular.  I just finished WCW 1989 and, as I move into 1990, Luger’s amazing heel run getting sacrificed to Flair because Sting is hurt is one thing I’m dreading watching again.

I heard an interesting idea of since the fans wanted to cheer Flair, have Luger kick Flair out of the horsemen

[The Comedian]

17 hours ago, SirSmUgly said:

Saying that Meltzer ruined smarkdom by amplifying his personal wrestling tastes through the Observer and thus normalizing those tastes as the proper way to define what makes a good worker is a deep freeze take, though. 

Personally, I'd put a lot more weight on the more accessible (ie. free to read) writings of Scott Keith in the late 90's/early 00's. In particular, he was pretty big on notions like "all big guys not named Vader are mediocre workers at best" or "coming out of Calgary = workrate genius"...

[AxB]

Yeah, Meltzer's stuff was always "Pay to read", whilst those early 2000s "Newz + Opinionz" Smarks were always far more accessible, at a time when Social Media didn't exist yet, video streaming didn't exist yet, Podcasts barely existed (and were still called Internet Radio Shows), there was a dearth of actual wrestling content available online, but with an audience that was very hungry for it.

[FourPostMassacre]

1 hour ago, The Comedian said:

Personally, I'd put a lot more weight on the more accessible (ie. free to read) writings of Scott Keith in the late 90's/early 00's. In particular, he was pretty big on notions like "all big guys not named Vader are mediocre workers at best" or "coming out of Calgary = workrate genius"...

Had YouTube been a thing back then he would have videos with HHH as the thumbnail and “He’s done” or “He’s finished?” multiple times a day. The flip side would be his videos where Benoit is the thumbnail with “Leaving WWE?” or “Should be champ”. He would just make these videos endlessly and have like a million subs of worshippers who take everything he says as gospel.