MARCH 2024 Wrestling Talk

[AxB]

The second WWE HoF inductee 2024 has been announced:

Spoiler

Spoiled for size. And suspense.

[FourPostMassacre]

On 3/4/2024 at 4:46 PM, BloodyChamp said:

My first post from that thread:

Winning a round against Vince isn’t “beating” Vince. Vince beat Eric. WWF beat WCW, and it was all because of Starrcade.

I know I know alot of other dumb stuff happened but they were just nails in the coffin. The coffin was Starrcade. I don’t even buy the “yeah but” concerning Sting being out of shape. Was Hogan in shape? Was ANY WCW champion since a young STING ever in shape? I wish Sting would have challenged Hogan to a lap around the building. It might have killed Hogan. I think I said that in the other 25 years thread. Heck not long after this the criteria for being champion was to be out of shape as Dean Malenko pointed out lol! 

So seriously, fuck Hogan. He ruined it. He ruined it all. It was the best build up to a match ever. Better than Hogan/Andre, better than Austin/HBK, and better than everything else. Hogan wussed out of doing business because he’s a chickenshit and a liar. And that’s really all there is to it. 

If Starrcade was the cake that killed WCW I’d like to nominate another Hogan moment as the icing on that cake and that would be the finger poke of doom. Such bullshit everytime I hear Bischoff call Dave a “jock sniffer” I wonder how anyone can take him seriously because their was a timeframe, like most of the 90’s, Eric had his head so far up Hogan’s ass he could tell you how Hogan’s breath smelled at any given moment.

[caley]

13 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

It should have been two Arab-Americans. Daivari was by far the best part of the act. You can tell he put some real effort into it. Whereas the other guy you can tell was being led by WWE creative. You can do that if you're making a Chief Jay Strongbow. Real life issues playing out in real time? It's either going to be great or a big OOOF moment. This was the latter.

I still can't wrap my head around WWE agents seeing Daivari do the magic carpet finisher, loving it, hiring him, then never letting him do it again.

[Just Dave]

3 hours ago, FourPostMassacre said:

If Starrcade was the cake that killed WCW I’d like to nominate another Hogan moment as the icing on that cake and that would be the finger poke of doom. Such bullshit everytime I hear Bischoff call Dave a “jock sniffer” I wonder how anyone can take him seriously because their was a timeframe, like most of the 90’s, Eric had his head so far up Hogan’s ass he could tell you how Hogan’s breath smelled at any given moment.

I was at the Dome for the FPoD and you’re not wrong. That killed their home base. It was never the same in Atlanta after that…

Edited March 6 by Just Dave

[Zimbra]

Daniel Makabe announced his retirement match will be July 12th on the first night of the Scenic City Invitational.

[Cobra Commander]

Not the first murder involving a former Wrestler in the last month

[JohnnyJ]

On 3/4/2024 at 4:46 PM, BloodyChamp said:

I know I know alot of other dumb stuff happened but they were just nails in the coffin. The coffin was Starrcade. I don’t even buy the “yeah but” concerning Sting being out of shape. Was Hogan in shape? Was ANY WCW champion since a young STING ever in shape? I wish Sting would have challenged Hogan to a lap around the building. It might have killed Hogan. I think I said that in the other 25 years thread. Heck not long after this the criteria for being champion was to be out of shape as Dean Malenko pointed out lol! 

I think you touched on one of the big issues with WCW. WCW was the workrate promotion that wasn't. The main event scene was slow, old and protective of their spots. We can point to specific screwups but that to me was the underlying problem. For all of the name value the talent had, nobody could deliver satisfying matches. And for all of WWFs faults, they had a force of nature in Stone Cold who could work matches people actually enjoyed.  

 

 

[Cliff Hanger]

1 hour ago, Cobra Commander said:

Not the first murder involving a former Wrestler in the last month

I bet the quote tweets of this report are totally normal

[AxB]

26 minutes ago, JohnnyJ said:

I think you touched on one of the big issues with WCW. WCW was the workrate promotion that wasn't...For all of the name value the talent had, nobody could deliver satisfying matches. 

Randy Savage had a few good ones in that era of WCW. Scott Hall could go when he wanted to. Sting always had it, never lost it. 

The thing was, if you've got Hogan and Nash on top, they were both at the time utterly determined to be less than carryable. 

[BloodyChamp]

Johnny J’s point stands………but it also was because of Hogan 90% of the time so AxB is right too. Then there was Nash screwing it up occasionally yes. Them 2 fuckrags were just useless after 1997, and useless the whole time if you assume they were never going to do business anyway, which is a safe assumption.

Edited March 7 by BloodyChamp

[(BP)]

21 hours ago, Cobra Commander said:

Not the first murder involving a former Wrestler in the last month

One of the tragic things about this is the guy he killed was featured on Dateline because he did twenty years in prison for a murder he didn’t commit after he was coerced into confessing. He was freed and eventually exonerated because the mother of the victim of all people didn’t believe he was guilty and fought for years to help him, and he got something like $11 million dollars from his home state in a settlement. He only spent a handful of years of his adult life free before he was murdered.  

[SirSmUgly]

20 hours ago, JohnnyJ said:

I think you touched on one of the big issues with WCW. WCW was the workrate promotion that wasn't. The main event scene was slow, old and protective of their spots. We can point to specific screwups but that to me was the underlying problem. For all of the name value the talent had, nobody could deliver satisfying matches. And for all of WWFs faults, they had a force of nature in Stone Cold who could work matches people actually enjoyed.  

 

 

That is a big disagree for me, with a handful of caveats.

I think they had a bunch of main eventers who could go. And that goes for some of the guys who weren't known as great workers - Lex Luger in 1996 is legitimately great on PPV as far as I'm concerned, and his Starrcade match with the Giant is excellently worked on both their parts. 

But in 1996 and 1997, they had Hall, Nash, Giant, Luger, Page, Flair and Savage doing good-to-great work, Goldberg doing solid stuff, and later Sting getting in the ring again and even the Hitman, who was going at three-quarters speed, putting together solid work. You add a bunch of guys positioned below them who are doing athletic, explosive work (Benoit, Rey, Eddy, Booker, etc.), and a few low-carders who are good fun (Mike Enos is consistently enjoyable whenever he pops up), and the work is really enjoyable when the booking moves out of the way. 

We can criticize Hulk Hogan all day, and he's one of the caveats. He's actually putting in decent work in 1996, but by mid-1997 a) he's fallen well off a cliff in athleticism and b) he's stopped working most matches like a cowardly heel, which he was doing right after the heel turn, and is taking way too much of these matches.

Roddy Piper is another caveat as he was washed almost immediately after dropping the Intercontinental Championship to the Hitman and is in way too many main event spots over this time.

One final caveat is that the undercard is often a mess. WCW shows rarely start with hot cruiserweight action, especially the Nitros, even though they somehow got a rep for doing that. 

I think WCW was absolutely a workrate promotion, though. They'd give Eddy and Chavo sixteen minutes on PPV or let Jericho and Juvi have fifteen minutes on PPV regularly. I actually think in 1998, both companies were workrate promotions. There were consistently excellently-worked 10+ minute matches on PPV in both those companies. I think WCW was more likely to give you compelling in-ring work on weekly television, but PPVs generally produced at least one or two matches with awesome work, if not more. And my hot take is that Austin was pretty boring on PPV in 1998. It's not his fault that he had to work Kane and 'Taker (who I think he has awful chemistry with) for a lot of it, but meh, Austin had a better '99 and a way better '01 in the main event spot. 

I think the big problem for WCW in the Bischoff era was the finishes. WCW couldn't book a finish to save their lives, specifically in the main event, and WWF could. WCW never had the strength of booking screwy finishes that were somehow satisfying, but that was well within Vinnie Jr.'s skillset. As swerves and screwjobs became more important features of wrestling matches, particularly once the calendar ticked to 1999, WCW was never going to do well. The other issue is that they tried to match WCW with shorter match times and more angles and talking, and again, WWF had the far better and more talented roster when the focus shifted to angles and talking and away from medium-length or long matches. 

One specific thing about late-stage WCW that I've been considering: I'm coming around to the idea that losing Chris Jericho to the competition was more shattering for WCW than I ever figured. I think it both signaled something about how WCW was fucking lame and WWF was the place to be, and it deprived WCW of arguably their best talker for the then-modern style of jokes, catchphrases, and creative skits. 

I digress, though. I think WCW's rep as the workrate promotion is fairly given, but is obscured by bad finishes, an undercard that was inconsistently booked, a move toward less work and more yapping that came to a peak in 1999, and the fact that Hogan and Piper spent a lot of time in main events. 

[JohnnyJ]

For clarity, I was talking about the WCW main event scene. Obviously there were plenty of guys in the undercard who could go.

I know you've done a ton of rewatching. Finish aside, what are a few non-ddp related WCW ppv main events worth checking out. 

  

[odessasteps]

For once, give it up to Juan Cena, especially after his horrible take on the Vince scandal. 

[zendragon]

1 hour ago, SirSmUgly said:

That is a big disagree for me, with a handful of caveats.

I think they had a bunch of main eventers who could go. And that goes for some of the guys who weren't known as great workers - Lex Luger in 1996 is legitimately great on PPV as far as I'm concerned, and his Starrcade match with the Giant is excellently worked on both their parts. 

But in 1996 and 1997, they had Hall, Nash, Giant, Luger, Page, Flair and Savage doing good-to-great work, Goldberg doing solid stuff, and later Sting getting in the ring again and even the Hitman, who was going at three-quarters speed, putting together solid work. You add a bunch of guys positioned below them who are doing athletic, explosive work (Benoit, Rey, Eddy, Booker, etc.), and a few low-carders who are good fun (Mike Enos is consistently enjoyable whenever he pops up), and the work is really enjoyable when the booking moves out of the way. 

We can criticize Hulk Hogan all day, and he's one of the caveats. He's actually putting in decent work in 1996, but by mid-1997 a) he's fallen well off a cliff in athleticism and b) he's stopped working most matches like a cowardly heel, which he was doing right after the heel turn, and is taking way too much of these matches.

Roddy Piper is another caveat as he was washed almost immediately after dropping the Intercontinental Championship to the Hitman and is in way too many main event spots over this time.

One final caveat is that the undercard is often a mess. WCW shows rarely start with hot cruiserweight action, especially the Nitros, even though they somehow got a rep for doing that. 

I think WCW was absolutely a workrate promotion, though. They'd give Eddy and Chavo sixteen minutes on PPV or let Jericho and Juvi have fifteen minutes on PPV regularly. I actually think in 1998, both companies were workrate promotions. There were consistently excellently-worked 10+ minute matches on PPV in both those companies. I think WCW was more likely to give you compelling in-ring work on weekly television, but PPVs generally produced at least one or two matches with awesome work, if not more. And my hot take is that Austin was pretty boring on PPV in 1998. It's not his fault that he had to work Kane and 'Taker (who I think he has awful chemistry with) for a lot of it, but meh, Austin had a better '99 and a way better '01 in the main event spot. 

I think the big problem for WCW in the Bischoff era was the finishes. WCW couldn't book a finish to save their lives, specifically in the main event, and WWF could. WCW never had the strength of booking screwy finishes that were somehow satisfying, but that was well within Vinnie Jr.'s skillset. As swerves and screwjobs became more important features of wrestling matches, particularly once the calendar ticked to 1999, WCW was never going to do well. The other issue is that they tried to match WCW with shorter match times and more angles and talking, and again, WWF had the far better and more talented roster when the focus shifted to angles and talking and away from medium-length or long matches. 

One specific thing about late-stage WCW that I've been considering: I'm coming around to the idea that losing Chris Jericho to the competition was more shattering for WCW than I ever figured. I think it both signaled something about how WCW was fucking lame and WWF was the place to be, and it deprived WCW of arguably their best talker for the then-modern style of jokes, catchphrases, and creative skits. 

I digress, though. I think WCW's rep as the workrate promotion is fairly given, but is obscured by bad finishes, an undercard that was inconsistently booked, a move toward less work and more yapping that came to a peak in 1999, and the fact that Hogan and Piper spent a lot of time in main events. 

Luger has probably the biggest fall off from 96/97 to 99/00 though. Total Package Lex gets pretty unwatchable especially for how much he continues to be featured 

[SirSmUgly]

11 minutes ago, zendragon said:

Luger has probably the biggest fall off from 96/97 to 99/00 though. Total Package Lex gets pretty unwatchable especially for how much he continues to be featured 

Not surprising. Though I remember enjoying TTP and Totally Buff from a character work standpoint, at least. But when Lex isn't engaged or, in the case of '99-'01 Luger, is both cooked physically and not being asked to do a whole lot in the ring, he's pretty bad!

At least TTP cutting promos with Liz and Buff has potential, unlike '92 or '94-'95 Luger having zero worth in watching at all.

[Technico Support]

1 hour ago, odessasteps said:

For once, give it up to Juan Cena, especially after his horrible take on the Vince scandal. 

Cena dresses like grandpa did when he worked at the bank and talks like he spent 20 years in front of a focus group

Edited March 7 by Technico Support

[BloodyChamp]

3 hours ago, SirSmUgly said:

That is a big disagree for me, with a handful of caveats.

I think they had a bunch of main eventers who could go. And that goes for some of the guys who weren't known as great workers - Lex Luger in 1996 is legitimately great on PPV as far as I'm concerned, and his Starrcade match with the Giant is excellently worked on both their parts. 

But in 1996 and 1997, they had Hall, Nash, Giant, Luger, Page, Flair and Savage doing good-to-great work, Goldberg doing solid stuff, and later Sting getting in the ring again and even the Hitman, who was going at three-quarters speed, putting together solid work. You add a bunch of guys positioned below them who are doing athletic, explosive work (Benoit, Rey, Eddy, Booker, etc.), and a few low-carders who are good fun (Mike Enos is consistently enjoyable whenever he pops up), and the work is really enjoyable when the booking moves out of the way. 

We can criticize Hulk Hogan all day, and he's one of the caveats. He's actually putting in decent work in 1996, but by mid-1997 a) he's fallen well off a cliff in athleticism and b) he's stopped working most matches like a cowardly heel, which he was doing right after the heel turn, and is taking way too much of these matches.

Roddy Piper is another caveat as he was washed almost immediately after dropping the Intercontinental Championship to the Hitman and is in way too many main event spots over this time.

One final caveat is that the undercard is often a mess. WCW shows rarely start with hot cruiserweight action, especially the Nitros, even though they somehow got a rep for doing that. 

I think WCW was absolutely a workrate promotion, though. They'd give Eddy and Chavo sixteen minutes on PPV or let Jericho and Juvi have fifteen minutes on PPV regularly. I actually think in 1998, both companies were workrate promotions. There were consistently excellently-worked 10+ minute matches on PPV in both those companies. I think WCW was more likely to give you compelling in-ring work on weekly television, but PPVs generally produced at least one or two matches with awesome work, if not more. And my hot take is that Austin was pretty boring on PPV in 1998. It's not his fault that he had to work Kane and 'Taker (who I think he has awful chemistry with) for a lot of it, but meh, Austin had a better '99 and a way better '01 in the main event spot. 

I think the big problem for WCW in the Bischoff era was the finishes. WCW couldn't book a finish to save their lives, specifically in the main event, and WWF could. WCW never had the strength of booking screwy finishes that were somehow satisfying, but that was well within Vinnie Jr.'s skillset. As swerves and screwjobs became more important features of wrestling matches, particularly once the calendar ticked to 1999, WCW was never going to do well. The other issue is that they tried to match WCW with shorter match times and more angles and talking, and again, WWF had the far better and more talented roster when the focus shifted to angles and talking and away from medium-length or long matches. 

One specific thing about late-stage WCW that I've been considering: I'm coming around to the idea that losing Chris Jericho to the competition was more shattering for WCW than I ever figured. I think it both signaled something about how WCW was fucking lame and WWF was the place to be, and it deprived WCW of arguably their best talker for the then-modern style of jokes, catchphrases, and creative skits. 

I digress, though. I think WCW's rep as the workrate promotion is fairly given, but is obscured by bad finishes, an undercard that was inconsistently booked, a move toward less work and more yapping that came to a peak in 1999, and the fact that Hogan and Piper spent a lot of time in main events. 

This is just word salad on a plate that just needed some lettuce lol! Yes Sting, Savage and the others could still go. It all means precisely jack when Hogan refused to lose to them.

WCW could book fine. They booked the 2 year long, very detail oriented NWO run until Starrcade and they had that booked right to start with until…you know. 

The undercard, I don’t want to say it didn’t matter, but I might say the booking didn’t matter. This is how good WCW had it. All they had to do was put almost any 10 minute match on any card, feud or not and it would have been good enough as long as the main event involved a feud with the right heat and right finish. That’s speaking broadly to prove the point. “A feud” is really incorrect. “The feud,” NWO vs WCW was it. They didn’t need anything else heat, storyline etc wise by Starrcade and beyond for a while. Put 2 guys out there who could have a good match and let them have it or put something like Crush vs Chris Jericho out there if you just had to do some kind of booking. Book the young guy to win and in that case that would be good enough workrate aside. 
 

 

Edited March 8 by BloodyChamp

[Elsalvajeloco]

I don't have much to add since a lot of the points I would probably make have already been summarized. I would add though that WCW made their bones during the period where Nitro was hot (especially early on) backdooring their way into fun matchups cause their roster was made up of a gumbo of new stars, old stars, luchadores who weren't stars, people who were unknown but about to be known, some solid utility guys, and everything else in between. Keep in mind, they hid a lot of the older guys by not having them wrestle that much or at least keeping them in short enough matches where you couldn't totally shit on them for their effort. Okay, now fast forward to 1999. After having watched every Nitro and PPV from 1998 and a select few Thunders, I can say that WCW's issue at the top is a multi-prong problem. It's a bit more than the old guys are politicking and can't wrestle anymore/cannot be carried. Eh...a lot of those guys had some okay to fun matches every now and again. The thing is...they shouldn't be. A lot of these guys are now older and somehow wrestling more on TV than they were in 1995-1997. Hogan had a stretch in early 1996 where he was wrestling on Nitro pre-NWO but then he took a long break to then come back in early July to do the turn. Another thing WCW got away with when they were hot is not having a bunch of their stars on mid tier PPVs and just having random matchups as main events. By late 1998/1999, they is A LOT of shit being thrown at the wall to make up for all the ground they lost to WWF and now the tide has really turned. So more old guy matches. More importantly, more old guy matches that are too long, badly laid out, and badly booked with horrendous finishes. So for every match with their stars that is ok, fine, or even good, you get three that are the total opposite of that. In the glory days, it was a 1:1 ratio which you can get away with especially if the stars aren't wrestling that much. Also, we have to define what the term "carry" means. I usually throw the word "carry" around for guys who could never usually have a good match or prelim/midcard guys who usually wouldn't get the opportunity. A lot of those guys have had good matches at SOME point in their career even if it was 4-5 years earlier. An inherent added problem to the stuff I've already mentioned is someone has to do the "carrying". So it's a bit more complex than RAWR RAWR HOGAN NASH BAD as much as who of those guys is going to pull their weight when two or more participants are way too old and the matches are put together in a nonsensical fashion. Some of these matches I am watching do have "good" workers in them, but the way they're put together means they will suck regardless. Where I am at in 1999, man, Piper is just too old so he needs the exact right opponent. He had a good match recently with Bret but a lot of that was cause the fans where into the important parts of the match and Piper wins the US title so you get the obligatory title change pop. The very next week, Piper has a terrible match with Hogan cause both guys are moving around like slugs. So it's back to square one. I think part of it also is by the late 90s heading into the new millennium, the standard of what wrestling was had a changed a bit. Flair can get away with certain stuff, but many elements of his matches that worked in 1989 or 1991 don't work in 1999. That shit he was doing night in and night out doesn't really resonate with fans as much. The fan favorite spots do. The rest either draws a light pop/reaction or indifference. The SuperBrawl match with Hogan you see a lot of that. A lot of these guys are just mainly working on their greatest hits. Some of it works. When it's terribly put together, then hardly any of it works.

[Ziggy]

Your right about Hall. Imagine if he was clean or atleast had his head on straight enough to not be taken off TV. I mean he even went out his way to put over a Luchadore that wasn't American born like Konnan or Rey. You would think Sean Waltman would have been trying to make a statement. The way he was featured on at the end of his run and not being taken seriously by management. The fact that he got be able to work against cruiserweight and still get to work against main event guys because being paired with Nash and Hall. You would think Waltman a better selection of different guys to work with and just kill it in WCW as opposed to WWF at the time. Hall put way more effort in his WCW run than all the 3 Wolfpac guys atleast when he wasn't completely off the rails

[BloodyChamp]

I’m not convinced that anybody ever watched or put money into a WCW show to see a good main event match workratewise, atleast not during the hot time we’re talking about. Don’t get me wrong they wanted to see the main event…….for the right guy to win and the right guy to lose. How it happened almost didn’t matter as long as it happened. All the mad fans after all those shows weren’t mad like “wow that wasn’t near as good as Rey Mysterio vs Eddie.” They were mad like “that was really stupid that Sting didn’t win.” In the case of the not smart fans it was the same way. They were like “that was stupid all that for a DQ at the end after the bad guy had already cheated before” or something.

Edited March 8 by BloodyChamp

[Curt McGirt]

5 hours ago, Technico Support said:

Cena dresses like grandpa did when he worked at the bank and talks like he spent 20 years in front of a focus group

He has. One form was thousands of people. The other was a one-man focus group. 

[BloodyChamp]

John Cena’s voice is annoying, especially on car commercials. Talk about something that’s not as good as it used to be anymore.

 

This was in some local car commercial in my town for a long time.

 

[The Natural]

WCW Starrcade 1997 was the beginning of the end for WCW and then the Fingerpoke of Doom on WCW Monday Nitro, 4th January 1999. Both involving Hulk Hogan. I hate that fucker.

[Eivion]

https://twitter.com/TripleHHHPaulL/status/1765961957738160244