All In II - 8/27/2023

[elizium]

Lovely tribute to Flip Gordon and the spirit of the original All In by having MJF and Cole wrestle on the preshow and on the main card.

[Niners Fan in CT]

19 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

So I don't get the justification for all the outrage you have.

You brought up some of the points I raised.   First, let me look at a random WrestleMania.   WrestleMania XIX.  Not a WrestleMania that people talk about as being the best WrestleMania, not to say it isn't held in high regard but I've never heard anyone say it's the best.  They had The Rock vs. Stone Cold III and Kurt Angle vs. Brock Lesnar and Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Jericho and Hulk Hogan vs. Vince McMahon street fight, I mean that's four matches that were the absolute best shit they could put out there for the live audience and the viewers at home.  

If you asked me what's the best 4 matches AEW could run right now,  I don't think they are doing that.  I agree that MJF vs. Adam Cole is the right move for the main event and I like that they are doing a tag match to play into the story later that night.  No issues there.  

Young Bucks vs. FTR is probably the best tag match they can do but the build to it has been nonexistent.  That's my issue with it.  

CM Punk vs. Samoa Joe could be very good, agreed.  But why do the match a few weeks before?  Also, is it the best match they could have did with CM Punk?  I would argue no it's not. 

The women's title match is a thrown together mess.  You said that yourself.  

And then there's Kenny Omega,  Hangman Page,  Jay White,  Ricky Starks...  none of them are going to have a big singles match?  

I don't think it's the best card they could do and I don't think the build to most of the matches has been good. 

I like the Sting/Darby vs. Fox/Swerve on the undercard, they've done a good job building that. 

I'm advocating for a better build and for them to put the best show out there they can do. 

 

 

 

[username]

I think the trios match would be going over better if this was Ibushi's first AEW appearance and he didn't look awful in Blood & Guts. No one (hyperbole) is excited about him in this match now because they just got burnt.

[matt925]

2 minutes ago, username said:

I think the trios match would be going over better if this was Ibushi's first AEW appearance and he didn't look awful in Blood & Guts. No one (hyperbole) is excited about him in this match now because they just got burnt.

Fwiw he said his shoes are super thin and he said he got glass and tacks in his feet at the beginning and it messed him up. Plus time prep and motivation. I’m excited. 

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

I'm looking forward to Pac making the save for Orange Cassidy against the BCC, finally earning his respect after years of disgust towards OC. I suppose that sets up some sort of four way dance with both titles on the line?

[Casey]

19 minutes ago, username said:

I think the trios match would be going over better if this was Ibushi's first AEW appearance and he didn't look awful in Blood & Guts. No one (hyperbole) is excited about him in this match now because they just got burnt.

I much prefer that trios match to the rumored HungBucks versus The Righteous that VoW reported about. Yiiiiiikes.

[Nice Guy Eddie]

16 minutes ago, Casey said:

I much prefer that trios match to the rumored HungBucks versus The Righteous that VoW reported about. Yiiiiiikes.

The Righteous vs. The Hung Bucks? I like the Righteous and all, but that's a match that would be better suited for an ROH ppv or Dynamite. The crowd seemed pretty quiet for Stu Grayson at Forbidden Door II and I'd say most of them didn't even know he had turned on the Dark Order. 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Nice Guy Eddie

[NoFistsJustFlips]

39 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I'm advocating for a better build and for them to put the best show out there they can do.

Okay. I don't begrudge you for that stance. But you're not being rational. Because the objective is to put on the best pair of shows they can put on in the same week (both in quality & in money made). I think it's stupid they booked 2 PPVs in the same week. But that's the cards that are dealt in this scenario. And it enters yelling at clouds territory to expect them to make All Out into an episode of Rampage just so all the best stuff can happen at All In. The have two shows in the same week. They have to book the stories in tandem.

The only opponents bigger for Punk than Joe (with where we are now) are MJF unification, Danielson, Kenny / Bucks / Hangman stuff that won't happen. Anything else needs a story built to it to have any aura or meaning. Jay White would be a really good match. But it doesn't have any bigger feel than the Joe match will have with where we are now.

We're in agreement the build has under delivered. I am the first one to rant about how the longer PPV windows *should* mean matches announced further out with longer promotion and hype. There's a more rational middle ground between the crappy build and ultimate dream match mania ends of the spectrum tho. I'm just trying to slide you closer to the middle where I feel the reaction belongs.

[Shartnado]

Since the All In success kinda fell on their lap unexpectedly, I'd load up that card as some sort of Greatest Hits/Best of/This Is AEW playlist and have the actual storylines build up towards All Out, as it would in normal circumstances.

For that purpose, Punk-Joe V and FTR v Bucks III are absolutely perfect!

If you don't have the time to build up interest for matches, why not use matches with built-in interest due to their history, instead?

I mean, it's probably too late for that at this point, but that would have been my approach, anyway.

[twiztor]

1 hour ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

And then there's Kenny Omega,  Hangman Page,  Jay White,  Ricky Starks...  none of them are going to have a big singles match?  

i much prefer singles to tags, trios, or multi-man matches, but AEW has, since its inception, tried to present them on equal footing. They do not see it as a "lesser than" scenario. your (and my) mileage obviously varies, but this is what the company has been doing and likely will continue to do.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

I kinda see both sides of this one, oddly - I think it's a sneaky good card so far with maybe an exception or two, but I do agree that there are a few people that I would have liked to have seen in big singles matches here that probably would've been announced by now. Not even necessarily those involved in the multi-person matches, but I think it would've been nice to have Eddie Kingston, Powerhouse Hobbs, Athena, Willow, Miro, Andrade, Hangman, Jay White etc. on this - only so many hours in the night I guess.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Zakk_Sabbath

[Nice Guy Eddie]

3 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

I kinda see both sides of this one, oddly - I think it's a sneaky good card so far with maybe an exception or two, but I do agree that there are a few people that I would have liked to have seen in big singles matches here that probably would've been announced by now. Not even necessarily those involved in the multi-person matches, but I think it would've been nice to have Eddie Kingston, Powerhouse Hobbs, Athena, Willow, Miro, Andrade, Hangman, Jay White etc. on this - only so many hours in the night I guess.

I'm sure some of the talent that doesn't make the card for All In will be on the card for All Out. 

[Zakk_Sabbath]

Just now, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I'm sure some of the talent that doesn't make the card for All In will be on the card for All Out. 

I would hope - I almost wonder if the scheduling was done when there was talk of a roster split

[lostinube]

2 hours ago, username said:

I think the trios match would be going over better if this was Ibushi's first AEW appearance and he didn't look awful in Blood & Guts. No one (hyperbole) is excited about him in this match now because they just got burnt.

Ibushi looked OK, not great, in the GLEAT ten man - he could still do things but didn't seem as crisp. One thing he definitely looked was gassed by the end of the match. I don't think three weeks is going to help with that.

Also, Ospreay joining Callis would ruin the United Empire, which is still a thing in New Japan.

Edited August 12, 2023 by lostinube

[Niners Fan in CT]

2 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

There's a more rational middle ground between the crappy build and ultimate dream match mania ends of the spectrum tho. I'm just trying to slide you closer to the middle where I feel the reaction belongs.

I didn't think every match should be a 'dream match' that's just some hyperbole that other posters tossed around because they didn't like that I was criticizing the build and some of the choices with the card.  For example,  I love the Darby & Sting vs. Swerve & AR Fox match up and that's not really a dream scenario but what they did is they built up the story between these guys real well and shot a money angle with them too.  So now I'm invested in what happens.  

Just because I think some of the decisions were meh and they could have made a better card doesn't mean I'm not ordering the show.  There's enough on the card and the spectacle alone that's going to sell me on it.  I just think it could have been a better lead up and there could have been better choices made. 

[zendragon]

4 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Lol @ "a 2 match show"  when you're talking about the BIGGEST pairing in Hogan and Andre the business had ever seen.  So big that the rematch did 33 million viewers on TV.  

Are you suggesting Adam Cole I’d not at their level?

[Shartnado]

5 hours ago, peachchaos said:

It's easy to look at III in retrospect as a 2-match show, but out of the 12 matches, 7 of them had storylines going on for months heading into the show (with the 6 man tag even combining two of the stories). It's a company firing on all cylinders. 

If I remember correctly, even the opener Can-Am Connection vs Orton/Muraco had an inconclusive match on TV previously, so even that one had some sort of build and the face team getting their revenge at the big event.

[The Natural]

I've a feeling Bryan Danielson vs. Kenny Omega 2 was a possibility here until Danielson broke his arm vs. Kazuchika Okada at Forbidden Door. I still have Danielson vs. Omega at Grand Slam Dynamite, 22nd September 2021 as the best match in AEW history. Gave it the full *****.

[AxB]

How many AEW PPVs have we seen, where they didn't announce the full card until a few days before the show? How many have we seen where tickets were on sale for months before they announced the Main Event?

Because I'm pretty sure that the idea that with 4 regular PPVs each year, every one should have a direct 3 month build is simply not how the company does things, or ever has done things. Most episodes of Dynamite, Rampage and Collision mostly build to the next week of TV. Every time they've built up a Punk match since he came back, it's been for seven days later, except once.

[Matt D]

28 minutes ago, AxB said:

How many AEW PPVs have we seen, where they didn't announce the full card until a few days before the show? How many have we seen where tickets were on sale for months before they announced the Main Event?

Because I'm pretty sure that the idea that with 4 regular PPVs each year, every one should have a direct 3 month build is simply not how the company does things, or ever has done things. Most episodes of Dynamite, Rampage and Collision mostly build to the next week of TV. Every time they've built up a Punk match since he came back, it's been for seven days later, except once.

At the end of the day, it’s the TV deal that will matter the most? 

[AxB]

I have successfully changed my train tickets and should make it  in the building in time for Zero Hour now.

[The Natural]

9 minutes ago, AxB said:

I have successfully changed my train tickets and should make it  in the building in time for Zero Hour now.

Glad you won't miss out, mate xxx.

[ExcellenceofAirPollution]

Just read this entire thread, a lot to cover here....

- with summer in full swing I haven't been able to keep up with AEW as much as I'd like and it's getting harder to follow with so many hours of TV, but it definitely doesn't feel like a promotion firing on all cylinders heading into what is surely it's biggest show ever.  they kind of reset a lot of stuff recently, so yeah, the build is feeling very lackluster IMO

- I'm not really that into the Cole/MJF stuff tbh, it already jumped the shark with me, so I'm underwhelmed by that as the main event.  However it's been super over so it doesn't really matter what I think

- Bucks/FTR III was a no brainer.  Not much build to it yet but the first two matches were great.  FTR has been on a roll lately and it'll be good to see the Bucks back in straight tag action.

- I wasn't sure how I'd feel about Punk until he was actually back.  Turns out I'm not digging him that much.  I've been checking out Collision for BCG mostly and straight up skipping thru some of Punk's matches.  Doesn't help that he's been working Starks who I'm also not that into beyond the entrance.  So Punk and Joe almost 20 years later doesn't really do anything for me, especially when they just gave it away on TV.  I also think the booking of Punk since his return has been kinda shitty which has contributed to my being lukewarm.  First night in he's got a bag and says he's the real champ until someone beats him, then he almost immediately loses (twice?  thrice?) and only after that does he finally bring the belt out and start making a big deal about it?  Also trying to force being a babyface.....

- Ospreay and Omega are personal favorites but I don't want to see Pt. III so soon after the Forbidden Door match and neither guy should lose to the other right now so zero issues there.  Jericho is one of my all-time faves and I like that they're getting him away from JAS.  The Callis thing is feeling like a misdirection now and Callis cornered Ospreay at Forbidden Door so they can do an angle to get there without Will having to disband United Empire or anything like that.  It looked a bit weird on paper at first but I will absolutely enjoy the hell out of a Jericho vs. Ospreay match in front of that crowd.  I'm looking forward to this more than anything else rumoured and I bet it steals the show reaction wise

- I prefer the Omega/Hangman/Ibushi vs. Takeshita/BCG tag to the singles tbh.  BCG has been on fire, this is a great spot for them.  The Omega-Takeshita singles needs more build and this can lead into that match at All Out.  Plus Omega and Jay White should be a big program at some point and you can start planting seeds for that here

- BCC vs. Orange/Kingston/? (Shibata perhaps) also works for me in the interest of getting more people on the card and giving more buildup to the Mox-OC singles match.

- House of Black vs. Andrade/Rush/? should be happening soon but 3 6-man tags on one show is a bit much so probably All Out for that

- I'd like everyone to get on this show so I'm hoping we get a Tony Khan special and there's a 40 man Rumble with 20 second intervals or something wacky like that.  I don't really want a 5+ hour show, but there's so much talent on the roster that deserves a spot....

Don't really feel like typing much more because while I'm pretty underwhelmed as of now there's still a few weeks to heat this up for the TV/PPV audience.  In general I agree with Niners Fan that AEW should be going all out to make All In as big as possible and it doesn't feel that way yet.  I feel confident in saying they will never have a crowd this big again and they really should be trying to make this show as special as possible.  I think as a result of the tickets sold they should be going even harder, not the "we already sold all these tickets without a card, why give anything too special away" mindset, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and see how I feel week of.  Losing Danielson, Hayter and Pac definitely hurt

[Kevin Wilson]

1 hour ago, ExcellenceofAirPollution said:

I think as a result of the tickets sold they should be going even harder, not the "we already sold all these tickets without a card, why give anything too special away" mindset

I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of what you said, but I think this line of thinking is what some people in this thread have wrong. There is no indication whatsoever that AEW thought "well we were going to book a bigger show, but since it sold so many tickets, now we will not give a special show." AEW is building this PPV the same way they've built every PPV for the last four years - poorly. This is their thing. They put so many big matches on Dynamite and Collision to keep WBD happy that they start PPV builds late and have already done most of their "dream" matches. Or big matches. I see no indication they are intentionally holding back or have the mindset you describe, they are booking this like they do every PPV. The issue more becomes some fans wanted this to be BIGGER than their regular PPVs, which I think is an understandable stance, but that is in the fan's mind, not evidence that it was in TK's mind and he changed it once he saw the ticket sales.

Having two PPVs in back to back weeks is a terrible idea in every way (from booking to expecting fans to buy two PPVs that close together) and isn't something I'd ever defend, I hate it. But it put them in the spot that they have to split big matches between two events, which is a situation they knew about before any tickets sold. I don't like it, but using that fact and the ticket sales to plant in TK's mind that he is holding back due to the sales of tickets seems off base and purely speculative by those not really looking at how AEW has always operated.

[Niners Fan in CT]

9 hours ago, zendragon said:

Are you suggesting Adam Cole I’d not at their level?

 

Let me crunch the numbers before giving you a definitive answer. 

 

21 minutes ago, Kevin Wilson said:

I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of what you said, but I think this line of thinking is what some people in this thread have wrong. There is no indication whatsoever that AEW thought "well we were going to book a bigger show, but since it sold so many tickets, now we will not give a special show." AEW is building this PPV the same way they've built every PPV for the last four years - poorly. This is their thing.

I'm fine with changing my stance from "AEW shouldn't be holding back"  to "Tony Khan isn't a great booker."