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October 2021 Wrestling Discussion


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On 10/25/2021 at 5:38 PM, just drew said:

 

I’m just at a loss to think of anything Charlotte could complain about. 

She was apparently tired of doing angles that involved her father. I mean Flair's last angle was him turning on her and getting whats her name pregnant 

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11 hours ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

I don't care that much about Charlotte in the scheme of things, but I do think that a lot of the criticism about her is fair.

On the other hand, she's not, like, Randy Orton or anything, and people seem to be alright with that fuckhead, giving credence to Stef's point.

I think, in conclusion, that the internet should focus on hating Randy Orton more. Fuck that dude.

"Yeah this person has treated their co-workers poorly but forget about that what about this person over here?"  isn't much of a defense.. 

Especially here because everyone has taken shots at Orton for years on this board and much of it was deserved. Nobody is 'ok' with things that Orton has done in the past. He has seemed to mature some so maybe that's why the discussions have cooled down. 

I have to laugh at the "Charlotte and Becky are trying to help Bianca get over" reports from these news sites.

Bianca didn't need help. She main evented WrestleMania and captured the title only to have her legs cut out. That's not to say either of them are at fault because who knows what's been said. Did Becky tell management no I don't want to pin Bianca in 26 seconds and then rub it in every week? Probably not.. but creative is incredibly dumb for doing it.

 

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8 hours ago, just drew said:

There is no system so toxic that it excuses Charlotte's behavior during that match. I do not understand the desire to shift blame from her in that instance. 

I'm going to say this as politely as I possibly can, in the hopes that you can understand the point that I've been trying to make for lord knows how many posts now.

What Charlotte did during that match was wrong. I believe I said that clearly enough. My point is that men have been having incidents like that during matches for decades, and none of them have ever been hit with the waves of hatred that she has.

Look at what else happened in this thread. Fake tweets were posted as "tweeted and deleted", then when it gets pointed out that they were fake, were any of them retracted? Apologized for? Nope. Because the hell with that woman, am I right? Her push sucks. Surely it's her fault. Let's immediately relish all the things that we think are wrong about her.

Because that's what we do with people we don't like based off their television presentation, right?

And it's that much easier to dislike them if they're women, right? Because this is a misogynistic society, and women are treated worse for daring to speak up for themselves. Shut up and be grateful, you dumb bimbo. Go take more time off for more plastic surgery. Haven't we loved those jokes in this thread too?

This isn't just about Charlotte, by the way. This is about any woman in wrestling that speaks up for themselves, or tries to actually do anything to change the systemic issues within wrestling. Because if I point out that the system is toxic and it doesn't change if you eliminate one component towards it, you think it's shifting blame to protect that one person. Why's that? Is it because you're afraid of the changes that would come of the system actually does change? Or is it because, well, this woman you don't know just sucks that much based off what you see on TV and what you read about her on the internet?

Pro wrestling is full of scumbags, and I can tell you that deciding one of them is bad just because of their push is an absolutely foolhardy way to decide who should be in a scummy business. Making your decision based off an unconsciously misogynistic viewpoint is even more foolhardy.

I've mentioned in the past that this board is often very unwelcoming of outside opinions, especially women's opinions, and this is yet another example of such. I believe I'll be taking another break after I hit "submit reply", because I don't like making these kinds of posts.

Take care, y'all. Please think a little bit more about why you hate people.

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No offense intended, @Stefanie the Human but when you toss out misogyny accusations about two separate incidents within maybe two pages of each other, it starts to feel like a "when you're a hammer, everything is a nail" situation.  Are there misogynists in the anti-Charlotte crowd?  Of course there are.  There are also non-misogynists who think the shit she's pulling is wrong.  But coming in and just tossing that term out because criticism against a woman feels that way to you is unfair.

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If this has been discussed already, forgive me, but I saw a report of Bryan Alvarez mentioning that when Moxley was on his way out of WWE, they attempted to leak false information about him to make him look bad on the way out, and that it might be a similar situation here. Not that I'm a Charlotte super-fan or anything, but I'm a little disappointed to have seen not a single grain of salt these last couple pages.

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Mox is a board favorite.  Charlotte is a tall blonde, which is Vince's perfered, and was superpushed over people the board wanted pushed, therefore she's undeserving of anything other than scorn and trashing.

 

The hivemind has spoken, disagree and you'll be run out of this "happy family".

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22 minutes ago, Raziel said:

The hivemind has spoken, disagree and you'll be run out of this "happy family".

Disagree there. i remember well i was one of the only people defending Sasha's choice to as many said "take her ball and go home"  because she felt she deserved better and was being left to toil in the undercard.  There were reports "leaked" of her and Bayley supposedly causing a scene at the hotel which have been since proved to be inaccurate. Were there apologies posted for that not really..  To this day there are posts about her "attitude"  and if anyone bothered to check they'd see that she's actually beloved in the women's locker room and she handpicked Bianca as the person she wanted to wrestle at WM.  

The situation is not unique to Charlotte. 

Edited by Niners Fan in CT
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36 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

 

The situation is not unique to Charlotte. 

It does seem to be pretty common for the women wrestlers (especially Charlotte and Sasha) though, strange almost like @Stefanie the Humanis correct or something.

Stefanie is always a welcome voice to this board, in part, because of the usual un-checked misogyny around here, but you all keep chasing her away whenever she tries to stand up and say something meaningful, instead of reflecting on your own behaviors and attitudes and implicit biases. Some of you may be old but you're not grown. I just saw someone use the term "funbox" to refer to the anatomy of Benchoff's wife and, joke or not, that shit is disgusting. This place, and wrestling fandom in general, can be hostile, intended or not, towards non-male individuals. I don't think most of the people here are bad or anything I just think not every one has 1) addressed their internal implicit bias and 2) think about the difference between the intent and impact of their statements.

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15 hours ago, Technico Support said:

ALL this shit needs to go.  All the toxic, abusive bullshit in wrestling that’s just accepted because “that’s how it’s always been.” 

No. It doesn't.

Speaking as a worker with 18 years experience, you don't learn or grow or get better by hugging and holding hands man. Different people learn different ways. And negative reinforcement is a real thing that works for some people. This a career path that is very physical. Everyone who gets into wrestling knows that and accepts that, and honestly that's a big draw for a lot of the people in the business. So taking a stiff forearm isn't a big deal. I've been there. I've fucked up a spot or forgot something. And when you get checked with a wake up shot it doesn't make me mad or hurt me, or hurt my feelings. It helps me refocus and get back to that mental place I need to be to get things back on track. It's hard to explain the fight or flight adrenaline ride your mind is in while performing. But just communicating with words isn't gonna break through that for most workers.

Now the specific thing you're speaking about, Charlotte giving a wake up shot to Kari who had a concussion, is an unfortunate turn of events. You have the benefit of hindsight. Charlotte just did what you do. She's in third gear just running the machine. Had she known Kari was hurt she would not have done any of that. But she didn't. So it's not fair to project what you know with hindsight onto her in that moment. But the concept of hitting someone a little harder to wake them up is not toxic. It's not abusive. It's a real and valuable tool. One that I promise all of your favorites have used in their careers.

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52 minutes ago, Sublime said:

It does seem to be pretty common for the women wrestlers (especially Charlotte and Sasha) though, strange almost like @Stefanie the Humanis correct or something.

i didn't say she wasn't correct.  The rest of your post... can't comment on that. Not sure who or what you are referring to. i don't read/post on the board as much as i once did with a different work schedule. 

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1 hour ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

No. It doesn't.

Speaking as a worker with 18 years experience, you don't learn or grow or get better by hugging and holding hands man. Different people learn different ways. And negative reinforcement is a real thing that works for some people. This a career path that is very physical. Everyone who gets into wrestling knows that and accepts that, and honestly that's a big draw for a lot of the people in the business. So taking a stiff forearm isn't a big deal. I've been there. I've fucked up a spot or forgot something. And when you get checked with a wake up shot it doesn't make me mad or hurt me, or hurt my feelings. It helps me refocus and get back to that mental place I need to be to get things back on track. It's hard to explain the fight or flight adrenaline ride your mind is in while performing. But just communicating with words isn't gonna break through that for most workers.

Now the specific thing you're speaking about, Charlotte giving a wake up shot to Kari who had a concussion, is an unfortunate turn of events. You have the benefit of hindsight. Charlotte just did what you do. She's in third gear just running the machine. Had she known Kari was hurt she would not have done any of that. But she didn't. So it's not fair to project what you know with hindsight onto her in that moment. But the concept of hitting someone a little harder to wake them up is not toxic. It's not abusive. It's a real and valuable tool. One that I promise all of your favorites have used in their careers.

I'm not a worker but I think it's stupid, abusive, and cowardly to hit someone for real in 1) in a worked sport and 2) when they're not expecting it, just because they made a mistake.  Look, I think Tom Cruise is a nutjob and a real asshole.  If he got mad at another actor and decided to "take liberties" during a fight scene to put that actor in line, that would be some bullshit.  If I got pissy at a coworker and decided to solve it with a sucker punch, I'd lose my job.  "Wrestling works differently" is, in my opinion, some old time carny bullshit used to justify all manner of awfulness.  Lio Rush getting a "bad rep" because he didn't want to sacrifice his dignity and carry someone's bags.  All the women who came out with harassment and assault stories last year.  All the Rougeau/Hennig/Bulldogs stupid ass bullshit we talked about in the Viceland thread.  All the perpetrators in those and many other stories of abuse fell back on "that's just wrestling."  It's childish and absurd in 2021.

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41 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

No. It doesn't.

Speaking as a worker with 18 years experience, you don't learn or grow or get better by hugging and holding hands man. Different people learn different ways. And negative reinforcement is a real thing that works for some people. This a career path that is very physical. Everyone who gets into wrestling knows that and accepts that, and honestly that's a big draw for a lot of the people in the business. So taking a stiff forearm isn't a big deal. I've been there. I've fucked up a spot or forgot something. And when you get checked with a wake up shot it doesn't make me mad or hurt me, or hurt my feelings. It helps me refocus and get back to that mental place I need to be to get things back on track. It's hard to explain the fight or flight adrenaline ride your mind is in while performing. But just communicating with words isn't gonna break through that for most workers.

Now the specific thing you're speaking about, Charlotte giving a wake up shot to Kari who had a concussion, is an unfortunate turn of events. You have the benefit of hindsight. Charlotte just did what you do. She's in third gear just running the machine. Had she known Kari was hurt she would not have done any of that. But she didn't. So it's not fair to project what you know with hindsight onto her in that moment. But the concept of hitting someone a little harder to wake them up is not toxic. It's not abusive. It's a real and valuable tool. One that I promise all of your favorites have used in their careers.

I disagree with this pretty strongly.  There is a difference between being tough with someone and being abusive.  I played football, done some judo and jiu jitsu, and there is never a reason to physically abuse someone to get your point across.  You don't really get the Charlotte thing without the abusive environment.  I don't know if she knew Sane had a concussion or not, but if hitting people in the head when they make a mistake isn't an accepted part of an abusive culture, it probably doesn't happen.  I remember my sister telling me a story about a teacher conference she had with my niece's sister.  Her teacher brought up the fact that my niece said, "My mom's going to beat me," when she got in trouble in class.  The teacher, who didn't think she was serious, still decided to bring it up when she talked to my sister.  My sister told her, "No, I've never put my hands on my children, but I threaten to do it all the time."  It's a physical activity, and there is a potential for people to get hurt when they get sloppy, but there is a way to communicate that you need someone to straighten the fuck up without actually physically abusing the person.  Wrestling culture as a whole is toxic, we've been talking about it on this board for over a decade.  Excusing the behavior just pushes that toxic behavior down to the next generation, when you could address it and stop it now so it doesn't continue.

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I'm gonna say a couple things, then I'm gonna leave this topic alone.

First of all, I 100% believe we live in a time where it's no longer necessary to "work through an injury" or give someone a "wake up" slap midmatch. I will admit that part of my sharp reaction to this practice is because I had to walk away from a promising football career early in college because I was pressured to play through nerve damage in my shoulder in high school. It wasn't until I started losing feeling in my left arm that I was able to see a specialist. The injury was far worse than I was told.  I felt obligated to play through it. It's been 20 years and I still don't have 100% utility. It's enough to play guitar and do other things that I enjoy, but there will always be a reminder. That's why I have zero patience for folks saying "it's just how it's done." It fucking shouldn't be.

 

As for the misogyny thing, I think I'm just overly critical (man) of workers I perceive to be hand picked for opportunities rather than the gifted workers they leapfrog. I mean, go look at what I post about the Young Bucks. Adam Cole. Seth Rollins. I assure you, Charlotte's gender has nothing to do with why I don't have any time for her.

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