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NOV 2020 WRESTLING DISCUSSION


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4 hours ago, Godfrey said:

My preferred match lengths are 5 to 8 min for unbalanced/enhancement matches and 10 to 15 max for relatively even matches, with 20 to 25 being for big bouts and 30+ being the PPV main event level if they really need it. Although as Matt D says it is very dependent on how the match is structured.

 

I like those lengths as well, but with the caveat you have to be unpredictable sometimes.  One of my issues with NJPW is that you never really get a sense a match could end at any moment.  I think at least once a night a match should stray from the standard formula- the hot dog doesn't get made, or a match ends in 2-3 minutes with a roll-up, or a flash KO, or some other sort of unique finish.

 

 

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1 hour ago, alstein said:

 

I like those lengths as well, but with the caveat you have to be unpredictable sometimes.  One of my issues with NJPW is that you never really get a sense a match could end at any moment.  I think at least once a night a match should stray from the standard formula- the hot dog doesn't get made, or a match ends in 2-3 minutes with a roll-up, or a flash KO, or some other sort of unique finish.

 

 

They did it, like, one time (outside of the G1) when Hiromu just obliterated KUSHIDA in their first rematch. It was really great and everybody loved it, but you can't do it in the main event slot. Not just because you feel like you're cheating fans out of what they paid for, but it also invokes the specter of Inoki-ism.

But NJPW absolutely book too hard in the other direction. 4 of the last 30 IWGP Heavyweight Championship matches went under 30 minutes, with three involving gaijin working non-NJPW styles. Okada/Jericho went 25, Okada/Cody went 27, Okada/Fale went 21. The odd match out is the most recent Naito/EVIL, which only went 26. That was a weird match that irked some people, but it doesn't have anything on a travesty like Kensuke over Fujita in two fucking minutes in 2004.

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My view is that if a movie is going to keep me in the theatre for over  hours they better have a really good reason for doing so,(Scorsese,  Taratentino, Nolan ,Villeneuve can pull it off most can't) and I feel the same about a match that goes over 20 minutes. 12-15 is probably best on average, preferably on lower end of that. Enought time to tell a story but not over staying. I also hate the modern trend of spaming finishers and near falls, and the needing to lay around selling exhaustion.

I guess Baley/Shasha is the best 30 minute iron women match but whats the best 1 hour match? HBK/Bret, Rock/HHH, Benoit/Hunter, or Angle/Lesnar?

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1 hour ago, zendragon said:

My view is that if a movie is going to keep me in the theatre for over  hours they better have a really good reason for doing so,(Scorsese,  Taratentino, Nolan ,Villeneuve can pull it off most can't) and I feel the same about a match that goes over 20 minutes.

I just found out that there is a sequel to the original I Spit On Your Grave that is two and a half hours long. That seems a little excessive. 

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2 hours ago, thee Reverend Axl Future said:

I regret not getting to see live any of the RFlair vs. BWindham 90 minute broadways they did. 

- RAF

It’s been covered in other threads, but these are absolutely my holy grails when it comes to untaped match(es). BW is my favorite wrestler ever and he was at the top of his game during this run. 

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Both, but mostly Crockett. Many of the matches went Time Limit Draw, 60 or 90 minutes. Flair was even doing frequent double shots (an afternoon amatch nd then fly to an evening card) I know they did one in Hammond IN around February because that was the one time I met Flair and we talked about it briefly (a story for another time). Barry Windham was one of the greats at that time.

- RAF

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12 hours ago, Smelly McUgly said:

But we agree that thirty-minute Iron Man matches are better than sixty-minute ones, right? I would assume that you feel this way based on your preference for shorter matches.

Honestly, no one's ever done a better Iron Man match than Rude/Steamboat at Beach Blast '92, but my second-favorite Iron Man match is also thirty minutes long (Sasha/Bayley at that NXT show...was it Revenge?). 

Both my picks. 1. Ricky Steamboat vs. Rick Ride at WCW Beach Blast 1992 and 2. Bayley vs. Sasha Banks from NXT TakeOver: Respect 2015. Both ***** matches to me.

3 hours ago, zendragon said:

My view is that if a movie is going to keep me in the theatre for over  hours they better have a really good reason for doing so,(Scorsese,  Taratentino, Nolan ,Villeneuve can pull it off most can't) and I feel the same about a match that goes over 20 minutes. 12-15 is probably best on average, preferably on lower end of that. Enought time to tell a story but not over staying. I also hate the modern trend of spaming finishers and near falls, and the needing to lay around selling exhaustion.

I guess Baley/Shasha is the best 30 minute iron women match but whats the best 1 hour match? HBK/Bret, Rock/HHH, Benoit/Hunter, or Angle/Lesnar?

Of those, Triple H vs. The Rock at Judgment Day 2000. Haven't seen Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels from WrestleMania XII in many years. Overall? Samoa Joe vs CM Punk at ROH Joe vs. Punk II.

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1 hour ago, mattdangerously said:

I just found out that there is a sequel to the original I Spit On Your Grave that is two and a half hours long. That seems a little excessive. 

Yeah, I've never actually seen even the original one, but if the title is a spoiler, that's a lot of spit. I would assume the point could have been established in less time than that. Kinda like those Cole-Gargano rematches.

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13 hours ago, notoriusvig said:

Now, I want to see that more than Turning Point. Is it just Meng beating the shit out of geeks with barb wire for 60 minutes?

 

13 hours ago, paintedbynumbers said:

Meng isn't in the iron man match but he does have a match on the card. I think vs Shlak

Spoiler

 

Meng with the bundle of light tubes to the head!

Edited by AxB
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11 hours ago, zendragon said:

My view is that if a movie is going to keep me in the theatre for over  hours they better have a really good reason for doing so,(Scorsese,  Taratentino, Nolan ,Villeneuve can pull it off most can't) and I feel the same about a match that goes over 20 minutes. 12-15 is probably best on average, preferably on lower end of that. Enought time to tell a story but not over staying. I also hate the modern trend of spaming finishers and near falls, and the needing to lay around selling exhaustion.

I guess Baley/Shasha is the best 30 minute iron women match but whats the best 1 hour match? HBK/Bret, Rock/HHH, Benoit/Hunter, or Angle/Lesnar?

There are more 60 minute iron man matches around. Bret had one on a Boston Garden house show in 93 with Flair (that's available as handheld on youtube), Bret had 4 in 94 against Owen, one of those is available on youtube as well. Then there was a Cena vs. Orton match in 09 (Bragging Rights) and a four way on NXT just some months ago. If you search for "60 minuten iron man" on cagematch, you get 57 hits, for example a match from Gulf Coast Wrestling in 1970, two Rockers vs. Rougeau Brothers matches, a Heavenly Bodies (the del Ray version) vs. Robert Gibson & Tracy Smothers match from SMW and 4 matches from wXw.

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1 hour ago, AxB said:

It has to be killing him that Ricky Morton likes and supports modern indy wrestling. 

Wouldn’t he just say that Morton was always the best at convincing paying audiences that punishment was real?

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15 hours ago, John E. Dynamite said:

They did it, like, one time (outside of the G1) when Hiromu just obliterated KUSHIDA in their first rematch. It was really great and everybody loved it, but you can't do it in the main event slot. Not just because you feel like you're cheating fans out of what they paid for, but it also invokes the specter of Inoki-ism.

But NJPW absolutely book too hard in the other direction. 4 of the last 30 IWGP Heavyweight Championship matches went under 30 minutes, with three involving gaijin working non-NJPW styles. Okada/Jericho went 25, Okada/Cody went 27, Okada/Fale went 21. The odd match out is the most recent Naito/EVIL, which only went 26. That was a weird match that irked some people, but it doesn't have anything on a travesty like Kensuke over Fujita in two fucking minutes in 2004.

Or say what you will about Goldberg/Lesnar but sub 5 minutes was the right length for those matches, played to both guys strengths and got out before it exposed too many of their weaknesses. Formula-breaking matches are key to keeping fans engaged too.

It's also about intention. Take Eddie Kingston/Matt Sydal from Dynamite a few weeks ago compared to Brian Cage/Sydal from last week which were essentially the same match structure and length. Arguably, Cage and Kingston are on the same upper midcard level, however because Kingston was headed into a world title match the next week there was a lot of discussion about whether he was done a disservice by not finishing Sydal off quickly and decisively. That same conversation did not happen with Cage because the intention of his match with Sydal was slightly different and it makes all the difference.

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4 hours ago, Robert s said:

There are more 60 minute iron man matches around. Bret had one on a Boston Garden house show in 93 with Flair (that's available as handheld on youtube), Bret had 4 in 94 against Owen, one of those is available on youtube as well. Then there was a Cena vs. Orton match in 09 (Bragging Rights) and a four way on NXT just some months ago. If you search for "60 minuten iron man" on cagematch, you get 57 hits, for example a match from Gulf Coast Wrestling in 1970, two Rockers vs. Rougeau Brothers matches, a Heavenly Bodies (the del Ray version) vs. Robert Gibson & Tracy Smothers match from SMW and 4 matches from wXw.

there was a guy on Crazymax I believe DJMikeNYC,  he was based in NYC and was selling loads of fancams.  This was back in 2004-2005.  I bought a shitload of them and can tell you I have some of the Bret-Owen ironman matches, as well as the Flair Bret.  I believe Rhodes-Rude had a few in WCW also. 

 

I was at the Bragging Rights show and would rather forget that match. 

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22 hours ago, thee Reverend Axl Future said:

Spontaneous opinion due to posting errors: a card/TV show should have matches of several lengths,

VERY much this. I think with rare exceptions, an opener should never hit 10 minutes. Gotta pace the show as a whole, not just the matches.

25 seems good for a typical main, but there are plenty of workers/stories that can make 35-40 seem shorter.

30 minute Ironman has never worked for me, bc the average main is almost this long anyway, with 1 fall. Wrestling is based around lower card ppl getting beat quicker, where is takes much longer to wear down upper carders to get a fall. 3-5 falls in 30 min is immersion-breaking, IMO, most (not all) of the time. You gotta be extremely creative for it to work.

Edited by bodyslamdunk
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