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16 minutes ago, The Green Meanie said:

Holy crap, who were those Freddie Kruger Capital Vice dudes?
 

Tazz was on point about those dudes...gimmick upon gimmick upon gimmick upon gimmick lol

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They need to wear assless chaps, and face paint too. Maybe throw in a towel, and sunglasses. What about a male valet, along with a female valet. Like legit the idea of a guy with a million gimmicks is a pretty funny character. Even though Corino did this with ROH in the 00’s.

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11 hours ago, The Green Meanie said:

Holy crap, who were those Freddie Kruger Capital Vice dudes?

Janella and Kiss are quickly becoming a favorite tag team of mine, but it will take much much more to top The Butcher & The Blade.

Capital Vices are Money Greene and J-SINN.  They have been working the Maryland/Virginia/DC indies for about 3 years.  Actually I am sure that J-Sinn has been working Virginia indies for maybe 10-15 years.  I could have sworn I saw him and Lance Lude in Ring of Honor against Kings of Wrestling once. 

Yeah if you would have told me watching Money Greene mostly as a manager in 2016 Nova Pro that he would be a job guy on national TV (well a national company on a Youtube show)  I would have so told you that you are crazy.  

 

Edited by hammerva
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10 hours ago, hammerva said:

Capital Vices are Money Greene and J-SINN.  They have been working the Maryland/Virginia/DC indies for about 3 years.  Actually I am sure that J-Sinn has been working Virginia indies for maybe 10-15 years.  I could have sworn I saw him and Lance Lude in Ring of Honor against Kings of Wrestling once. 

You're right about J-Sinn's length of time on Virginia indies. He and Lance Lude were the Set for something like three years in the late-2000s. Before then, he was part of a tag team called the Street Sweepers with Greg Vercetti.

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This was a tweet from AEW:

We wish Jimmy Havoc all the best as he receives treatment and counseling in an effort to overcome the mental health and substance abuse challenges in his life. We are aware of various reports related to Jimmy. We are evaluating his status with our company and will address it when he has successfully completed his rehabilitation.

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I imagine there’s quite a lot of blowback to that statement, but I think this is the humane thing to do.  It’s been clear for a long while that Havoc has mental health and substance use issues, and these new allegations make it clear they’re even worse than we knew.  People with his issues don’t “learn their lesson” and change simply through punitive consequences.  Firing him immediately isn’t going to help him or protect the people in danger from him.  In fact, it would likely make him MORE of a danger to himself and other people in his life.

I think it’s wise for AEW to support him in getting help first, then figure out the long-term consequences for his employment.

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I don't know if it's my place to throw out a solution but I tend to agree. Even if the story ends in people serving time, there should be an avenue back to "polite society" otherwise what is the best outcome? They live under a rock learning to hate the system and everybody in it? Maybe that is what they deserve but it sure sounds like a path to recidivism. Progressive people largely preach for restorative justice and moving towards making everybody involved better long term. This is a good chance to practice what we preach. It's why I said in the main thread there is no perfect solution to something so awful, but that may be the best of the bad outcomes. 

To be clear this isn't promoting a slap on the wrist approach either. 

Edited by Oyaji
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I did see someone on twitter saying that under Florida law, you can't fire someone who is in rehab. So even if AEW wanted to fire Jimmy, they couldn't, right now.

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On 6/20/2020 at 10:30 AM, AxB said:

I did see someone on twitter saying that under Florida law, you can't fire someone who is in rehab. So even if AEW wanted to fire Jimmy, they couldn't, right now.

I know that if he's a citizen of the US, he's protected under multiple laws nationwide and local to Florida. But seeing as how he's probably here on a work visa.... I've got no idea if that's true for his situation or not, especially in a place that's as backwards as Florida. If it wasn't, and he could be terminated, I don't see AEW doing it regardless, because it's the ethical thing to do (which is kind of fucked up, having to apply ethics to a situation involving an employee that's been outed as a rapist, but... here we are).

The other thing is that, if he was a citizen, under (I believe) FMLA in Florida, AEW wouldn't have to pay him (their choice) but they'd have to provide a guarantee that he could come back to work after his rehabilitation is complete.

 

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1 hour ago, Infinit said:

So what do they do with Kip now? Find him another partner? I'm assuming they're doing an 8 man at Fyter Fest...maybe have him tag with Luther?

Honestly I preferred him with Penelope over his teaming with Havoc.  So seeing them go back to that would be nice.  He could step up his efforts to get the TNT title and Penelope can work her way up the ranking to challenge Shida.  Havoc a lot of the time felt like the third wheel and while the team itself was fine they won't be missed by me.

One thing I just remembered is that not long ago they mentioned that Havoc was still living with Kip and Penelope even though they're engaged.  I know Jimmy's in rehab but when he gets out I can't help but wonder how Penelope would feel about potentially living with him again.  That may have to change.

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5 hours ago, Omega said:

 

22-yr old said something very cringe.   He should have been given a big talking to and shown the door, but beyond that you're getting into cancel culture territory.  This easily falls into the category of "mistake", not "evil".

Young people screw up. 

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36 minutes ago, NikoBaltimore said:

Honestly I preferred him with Penelope over his teaming with Havoc.  So seeing them go back to that would be nice.  He could step up his efforts to get the TNT title and Penelope can work her way up the ranking to challenge Shida.  Havoc a lot of the time felt like the third wheel and while the team itself was fine they won't be missed by me.

One thing I just remembered is that not long ago they mentioned that Havoc was still living with Kip and Penelope even though they're engaged.  I know Jimmy's in rehab but when he gets out I can't help but wonder how Penelope would feel about potentially living with him again.  That may have to change.

Long term yes...Kip and Penelope as an act makes more sense. But I'm talking short term, the next couple weeks. It looked like they were heading to YB/FTR vs B+B/Superbad Squad for Fyter Fest. Do they just slot in another team with B+B?

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28 minutes ago, alstein said:

 

22-yr old said something very cringe.   He should have been given a big talking to and shown the door, but beyond that you're getting into cancel culture territory.  This easily falls into the category of "mistake", not "evil".

Young people screw up. 

NO. Stop with the unneeded defense. Rape is evil. Rape culture is evil. You wouldn't shrug this off if someone said that against a woman you cared about.

STOP ENABLING THIS GARBAGE.

Calling out such behavior isn't cancel culture. Cancel culture is a fake social construct, it doesn't actually exist or happen. Holding people accountable isn't cancelling them.

There was a thousand ways for Guevara to express how he found Sasha attractive. Why did he go to wanting to rape her? Why would anyone consider that normal? Why are you doing that?

STOP IT!!!

 

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22 is more than old enough to know better than to say something that stupid. Hell, so is about 10. If he hasn't changed by now, he never would.

Edited by Ryan
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It's not like there's a shortage of good tag trams in the company, is it? Santana & Ortiz replacing the SDS* would be an upgrade.

The other thing is, there's a decent chance that Havoc won't be coming back. Most of the UK speaking out cases are now police matters. Considering the serious nature of his alleged crimes, his next move after rehab is probably being extradited back to England and charged.

* Now there's  a reason to keep the Death part of the name.

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2 hours ago, Infinit said:

Long term yes...Kip and Penelope as an act makes more sense. But I'm talking short term, the next couple weeks. It looked like they were heading to YB/FTR vs B+B/Superbad Squad for Fyter Fest. Do they just slot in another team with B+B?

Oh, I see.  Yeah, you got me there.  Looking at their roster no teams make sense to be a suitable replacement unless you want to try and shoehorn Dark Order into it.  And I hope that's not something they try.  There's always a chance of Kip finding a replacement but the only one that could maybe work is Spears.

Edited by NikoBaltimore
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28 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

NO. Stop with the unneeded defense. Rape is evil. Rape culture is evil. You wouldn't shrug this off if someone said that against a woman you cared about.

STOP ENABLING THIS GARBAGE.

Calling out such behavior isn't cancel culture. Cancel culture is a fake social construct, it doesn't actually exist or happen. Holding people accountable isn't cancelling them.

There was a thousand ways for Guevara to express how he found Sasha attractive. Why did he go to wanting to rape her? Why would anyone consider that normal? Why are you doing that?

STOP IT!!!

 

 

This wasn't rape.  And yes, rape culture is evil- but you're not going to stop it just by attempting to cancel anyone who does it- do enough of that and folks will just ignore your whole message.  If you did what Sammy did in the military, you'd get paperwork at worst, most likely a very harsh chewing out.   And yes, what you're doing in this case is cancel culture- it's going way above and beyond what is warranted for something 4 years ago of this level.   There should be an appropiate level of accountability- what you're asking for is excessive.

 

I do agree this shit isn't acceptable- but things have to be handled in a fair manner.  Yes, he should have known better, and there should be some accountability.  This is forgivable though. And yes, having to deal with the fallout is the price of what he said.  

 

At the time, he should have been chewed up hard about what he said, and his workout should have been cancelled.  That would have been appropiate.


Appropriate in this case now would be Sammy apologizing, saying he was young and stupid, and saying he'll be better in future, and if he isn't, he's lost his benefit of the doubt.  This was 4 years ago and 22-yr olds in toxic cultures will say dumb things.  I don't think he would have actually raped Sasha- it was a very cringe figure of speech that was used more at the time. 

There's a big difference between this, and Will Ospreay, and Joey Ryan.

Sammy is pretty easy to forgive, Ospreay's going to take a lot time to ever forgive, and Joey Ryan is unforgivable in my eyes.

 

 

Edited by alstein
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3 hours ago, Infinit said:

So what do they do with Kip now? Find him another partner? I'm assuming they're doing an 8 man at Fyter Fest...maybe have him tag with Luther?

Just team Kip with Havoc's son, Matt Cross, instead.

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