Forbidden Door II - 6/25/2023

[Firebreaker Chip]

Yeah, it felt like it buried the ref when the he makes eye contact with Callis after he's come back out and just...does nothing

Kingston saving Mox from what he thought was a deadly ring explosion was understandable, Kingston diving in to save Mox from his own partners doing a move they do 10 times in every single match...not for me. What, did he think he spied another landmine strapped to Nick's foot? Perhaps Eddie will save Mox from increasingly non-threatening situations going forward as we build towards him diving from off-camera, screaming NOOOOO in slow motion to prevent Mox locking up with Chuck Taylor at the start of a match

With Bryan injured, is there any chance they run Claudio vs Ishii on Dynamite?

Thought commentary was generally good here and Kelly meshed with Excalibur pretty well and filled in the New Japan stuff he was more familiar with effectively, other than when he kept forgetting the Japanese announcer was about to speak

 

[AxB]

Between Punk having an elbowdrop land right on his cock, and then Danielson getting his arm broken by another elbowdrop... maybe time to tell everyone backstage "The top rope Elbow, it's Max Caster's finish, don't anyone else be doing it"?

[Raziel]

1 minute ago, AxB said:

Between Punk having an elbowdrop land right on his cock, and then Danielson getting his arm broken by another elbowdrop... maybe time to tell everyone backstage "The top rope Elbow, it's Max Caster's finish, don't anyone else be doing it"?

Well that might fly if diving elbows weren't signature moves of both Kojima and Okada.

[Go2Sleep]

Could they actually tell that to Kojima and Okada, though? Not sure what the inter-promotional etiquette is, but I don't think it involves telling a former and current ace not to do a move that one of your midcard tag team guys does. Punk does the top rope elbow as well.

Yeah, Danielson is made of glass at this point, but that's a fluke injury. I wouldn't overreact to it.

[hobo joe]

Ref ejects second and sends them to the back means, from a storytelling perspective, that they are no longer part of the story of the match. If they get reintroduced there has to be a twist or something.

[Gordi the former AEW fan]

I absolutely don't mean this in a disingenuous finger-wagging way. I literally mean that it is interesting: It's interesting that a card with three great matches and only a couple of matches below "very good" can be seen as kind of a disappointment these days. I sm certainly not the only one here old enough to remember when three great matches was a sure-fire Card of the Year. Nothng wrong with changing standards. But it sure is a sign that standards have changed. Also, it's a sign of just how high our expectations were for this card. Last year's FD was COTY and this year's was even better on paper so of course expectations were sky high. In a similar vein, I think part of the reason that the fake seizure spot hit many of us so negatively is that we LOVE Bryan and so felt deeply concerned for a moment there. I certainly hope it's the case that it was a desperate improvisation to allow the doc to look at his arm. I think I am suffering from whatever the opposite of recency bias is (primacy bias?) in that, as much as I enjoyed the show (a LOT) I feel like last year's was better and as much as I LOVED Kenny vs Ospreay II, I feel like the WK match was better. I particularly marked out for Ishii being the one to get the pinfall, and the EXTREMELY OSAKA PRO first several minutes of the four-way match. Like, seriously, Cassidy must have been studying tapes of old Osaka Pro multi-mans. I was legitimately VERY close to crying tears of joy during that part of the match. It would be faster and more efficient to list the four or five obvious (and already well-covered in this thread) things I disliked than to list the dozens of wonderful things that popped me while I was watching. (Like, say, Bungle Joy leaving through the heel tunnel. Possibly the best thing about that match). I had to work Monday morning (note to Fozzie: Zero Hour started at 8 am Monday morning Japan Time). Got to watch the preshow and the first three matches before heading out. I was VERY tired at work (I am also on a VERY strict diet at the moment, and it is terribly muggy here, weather-wise, so I slept poorly in addition to waking up early-for-me), after school was finished I hit the gym before teaching a couple of private lessons in a cafe. So I was a f'n ZOMBIE by the time I got home. Thought I'd watch at least one match before gratefully hitting the hay. Ended up watching right to the end with zero breaks, marking out more or less constantly. Then I un-muted the ppv chat I am in with several international wrestling maniacs, read through that laughing out loud, then popped over here. What a treat, reading (almost) everyone's thoughts on the show. I tore through the thread. Apologies if you deserved a like but I didn't give you one. I was pretty sleep-deprived by that point. Also it made me sad to think that DEAN didn't get to enjoy this show (unless maybe they have FITE in Heaven) and we won't get to enjoy reading his thoughts. I slept for about nine hours.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Gordlow

[Shartnado]

It is such a relief that there seems to be others who have commented on this (and I guess there are mitigating circumstances), but I'm not impressed with NJPW crew. They have Will Ospreay (ZSJ, I guess) and used to have Aussie Open. That's about it. Don't really get Shibata. Don't get Tanahashi. Certainly don't get Okada. Naito? Nope. SANADA? Ok, he did a poison rana, so I get him, kinda, but still not so much. Umito was good, like last time and Kojima still had surprisingly much to give.

It's not really to say that the matches they had were bad or not entertaining, but I have been reading about these guys since 2017-ish and they were among the best ever and had the greatest matches prior, during and after that time. What I have seen during the Forbidden Door shows don't match with that description.

As I said, mitigating circumstances and all that, but still kinda not what I pictured from the show results from the JAPAN folder.

[TheVileOne]

The crowd dying during the main event is another reason you don't want to overstuff a card like this. You didn't need four matches on the pre-show alone.

[Curt McGirt]

7 hours ago, John from Cincinnati said:

Punk full-on pulled a Cody "whoops, I almost left through the heel tunnel, my bad." We're back. We've never been so back. Thriving. 

That prick knew he was walking through the right tunnel. Which I guess is your point...

I forgot to mention DON CALLIS' JACKET~! That was some straight-up "your grandma's couch" shit. 

EDIT: I know it's not the same match but it has to be the same jacket. That thing just looks like it smells like mothballs and perfume. 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Curt McGirt

[Casey]

16 minutes ago, Shartnado said:

It is such a relief that there seems to be others who have commented on this (and I guess there are mitigating circumstances), but I'm not impressed with NJPW crew. They have Will Ospreay (ZSJ, I guess) and used to have Aussie Open. That's about it. Don't really get Shibata. Don't get Tanahashi. Certainly don't get Okada. Naito? Nope. SANADA? Ok, he did a poison rana, so I get him, kinda, but still not so much. Umito was good, like last time and Kojima still had surprisingly much to give.

It's not really to say that the matches they had were bad or not entertaining, but I have been reading about these guys since 2017-ish and they were among the best ever and had the greatest matches prior, during and after that time. What I have seen during the Forbidden Door shows don't match with that description.

As I said, mitigating circumstances and all that, but still kinda not what I pictured from the show results from the JAPAN folder.

Post this in r/njpw on Reddit and the people there will tell you that AEW is big leaguing New Japan and all sorts of other crazy stuff. Complaints about Danielson making Okada tap are everywhere in that sub, and they’re real salty that Ospreay might get signed come next year (I doubt it, but whatever).

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

15 minutes ago, Gordlow said:

In a similar vein, I think part of the reason that the fake seizure spot hit many of us so negatively is that we LOVE Bryan and so felt deeply concerned for a moment there. I certainly hope it's the case that it was a desperate improvisation to allow the doc to look at his arm.

Speaking just for myself, I get disturbed over any instance of severe brain injury, and I would be worried about any wrestler - my enjoyment of them cast completely to the side - if they had a seizure mid-match. Same goes with the aforementioned fencing response. I've seen enough TBIs occur that trigger seizures/fencings to know they are horrifying, and I would greatly prefer to not see them teased, especially by someone with a known history of TBIs. To see them faked, for me anyway, completely ruins any enjoyment of wrestling for me. And that's even if it was to get a doctor to look at his arm; I'd much prefer the match have been stopped if that was indeed the case. I couldn't care less about match flow of whatever at that point. I'd rather have the match come to a complete halt than worry about someone's brain health.

[Curt McGirt]

All good points. Danielson's -- and many others' -- "the show must go on" ideology needs to be shut down for their own sake. 

[EVA]

I mean, Naito was wearing a t-shirt. Always a dead giveaway that he is not going to be trying tonight.

[Curt McGirt]

See, there has to be a middle ground here 

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

Danielson has shown pretty consistently that he thinks his injury history is fair game for use as a storytelling tool in his matches. I kinda think we just have to accept that as a possibility when watching his matches. Given how obsessed with wrestling he seems to be, I doubt he sees anything as too sacred to be used for pops or sympathy.

[Curt McGirt]

It's sad as fans that we must accept that wrestlers are just crazy, but I suppose it goes with the territory. Just like most musicians are absolute scumbags but we still listen to them (I've been re-reading Please Kill Me so there's a lot of evidence that's in my mind right now). 

[Niners Fan in CT]

I second (or 3rd) that @Matt D should go watch Ospreay vs. Omega.  Nobody says you have to love it or even like it but it's going to be a match that is remembered historically and from that viewpoint if you are into reviewing wrestling then you want to be up on current events  

[Niners Fan in CT]

I think what some folks are missing (or maybe they aren't missing it) is with a match like Omega vs. Ospreay,  a blood feud, and make no mistake it's a blood feud..  these are the types of matches that have EARNED the right to go balls to the wall and kick out of finishers and cheat death and "HULK UP"  or whatever else..  

If you enjoy anything about Hogan's 80's run or Macho Man vs. Ultimate Warrior or The Undertaker's streak or New Japan main event epics,  this was some of all of that.. 

The storytelling was there.  It might not be your type of story but it's the type of blood feud story that's been told for decades. They didn't "kill the business" because what they did out there IS the business...  this is wrestling.  

[Infinit]

 

[Matt D]

11 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I second (or 3rd) that @Matt D should go watch Ospreay vs. Omega.  Nobody says you have to love it or even like it but it's going to be a match that is remembered historically and from that viewpoint if you are into reviewing wrestling then you want to be up on current events  

That, old bean, is the very last reason I’d ever watch a match. Phil had a good gig for a bit watching wrestling. It’s all for kicks for me and I know how I get my kicks. No man is an island but my peninsula has a hell of a view. 

[The Natural]

4 hours ago, LF2 said:

Honestly even if they’d only aired the top two matches I listed I’d have felt like I got my $50 worth and then some. I hope they run Omega vs Ospreay two out of three falls (as someone else suggested) at All In, and let them go for 60-75 minutes if they want. And to me last night cemented Kenny as being the true Best In The World (sorry @The Natural but I’d take any of Kenny’s Okada matches over the main event, and I’m not sure Bryan could match the two Ospreay matches from this year) on a night that featured two others who make that claim. I think it’s a safe bet Ospreay agrees as I see in his tweet today he mentioned everyone in the company being “All Elite” but Kenny is “Above Elite”.

I agree with you that the Okada/Omega matches were better though I've never been as high on the Broadway match. To me that's definitely the worse one. How do you have them?

4. Dominion 2017.

3. G1 Climax 2017. *****.

2. Wrestle Kingdom 11. *****.

1. Dominion 2018. *****.

It's really close between Dominion 2018 and Wrestle Kingdom 17 for first place.

[The Natural]

1 hour ago, Gordlow said:

I absolutely don't mean this in a disingenuous finger-wagging way. I literally mean that it is interesting: It's interesting that a card with three great matches and only a couple of matches below "very good" can be seen as kind of a disappointment these days. I sm certainly not the only one here old enough to remember when three great matches was a sure-fire Card of the Year. Nothng wrong with changing standards. But it sure is a sign that standards have changed. Also, it's a sign of just how high our expectations were for this card. Last year's FD was COTY and this year's was even better on paper so of course expectations were sky high. In a similar vein, I think part of the reason that the fake seizure spot hit many of us so negatively is that we LOVE Bryan and so felt deeply concerned for a moment there. I certainly hope it's the case that it was a desperate improvisation to allow the doc to look at his arm. I think I am suffering from whatever the opposite of recency bias is (primacy bias?) in that, as much as I enjoyed the show (a LOT) I feel like last year's was better and as much as I LOVED Kenny vs Ospreay II, I feel like the WK match was better. I particularly marked out for Ishii being the one to get the pinfall, and the EXTREMELY OSAKA PRO first several minutes of the four-way match. Like, seriously, Cassidy must have been studying tapes of old Osaka Pro multi-mans. I was legitimately VERY close to crying tears of joy during that part of the match. It would be faster and more efficient to list the four or five obvious (and already well-covered in this thread) things I disliked than to list the dozens of wonderful things that popped me while I was watching. (Like, say, Bungle Joy leaving through the heel tunnel. Possibly the best thing about that match). I had to work Monday morning (note to Fozzie: Zero Hour started at 8 am Monday morning Japan Time). Got to watch the preshow and the first three matches before heading out. I was VERY tired at work (I am also on a VERY strict diet at the moment, and it is terribly muggy here, weather-wise, so I slept poorly in addition to waking up early-for-me), after school was finished I hit the gym before teaching a couple of private lessons in a cafe. So I was a f'n ZOMBIE by the time I got home. Thought I'd watch at least one match before gratefully hitting the hay. Ended up watching right to the end with zero breaks, marking out more or less constantly. Then I un-muted the ppv chat I am in with several international wrestling maniacs, read through that laughing out loud, then popped over here. What a treat, reading (almost) everyone's thoughts on the show. I tore through the thread. Apologies if you deserved a like but I didn't give you one. I was pretty sleep-deprived by that point. Also it made me sad to think that DEAN didn't get to enjoy this show (unless maybe they have FITE in Heaven) and we won't get to enjoy reading his thoughts. I slept for about nine hours.

This alongside my Mum having seizures and it was the 9th anniversary of losing her when this show happened UK time. I also preferred Omega/Ospreay from Wrestle Kingdom 17.

1 hour ago, Shartnado said:

It is such a relief that there seems to be others who have commented on this (and I guess there are mitigating circumstances), but I'm not impressed with NJPW crew. They have Will Ospreay (ZSJ, I guess) and used to have Aussie Open. That's about it. Don't really get Shibata. Don't get Tanahashi. Certainly don't get Okada. Naito? Nope. SANADA? Ok, he did a poison rana, so I get him, kinda, but still not so much. Umito was good, like last time and Kojima still had surprisingly much to give.

It's not really to say that the matches they had were bad or not entertaining, but I have been reading about these guys since 2017-ish and they were among the best ever and had the greatest matches prior, during and after that time. What I have seen during the Forbidden Door shows don't match with that description.

As I said, mitigating circumstances and all that, but still kinda not what I pictured from the show results from the JAPAN folder.

Match recommendations if you're up for it...

Kazuchika Okada:

1. Okada vs. Omega, Dominion 2018. *****.

2. Okada vs. Tanahashi, Wrestle Kingdom 10. *****.

3. Okada vs. Omega, Wrestle Kingdom 11. *****.

4. Okada vs. Tanahashi, King of Pro-Wrestling 2013. *****.

5. Okada vs. Shibata, Sakura Genesis 2017. *****.

Tanahashi:

1. Tanahashi vs. Suzuki, King of Pro-Wrestling 2012. *****.

2. Tanahashi vs. Okada, Wrestle Kingdom 10. *****.

3. Tanahashi vs. Ibushi, G1 Climax 2018. *****.

4. Tanahashi vs. Okada, King of Pro-Wrestling 2013. *****.

5. Tanahashi vs. Naito, Wrestle Kingdom 11. *****.

Naito:

1. Naito vs. Okada, 40th Anniversary Show. *****.

2. Naito vs. Tanahashi, Wrestle Kingdom 11. *****.

3. Naito vs. Okada, Wrestle Kingdom 14. *****.

Edited June 27, 2023 by The Natural

[Octopus]

5 hours ago, LF2 said:

And to me last night cemented Kenny as being the true Best In The World (sorry @The Natural but I’d take any of Kenny’s Okada matches over the main event, and I’m not sure Bryan could match the two Ospreay matches from this year) on a night that featured two others who make that claim. I think it’s a safe bet Ospreay agrees as I see in his tweet today he mentioned everyone in the company being “All Elite” but Kenny is “Above Elite”.

Although not a perfect analogy, but a fun parallel I like to use is Bryan Danielson or Kenny Omega is the modern Bret Hart or Shawn Michaels.

Thankfully (to my knowledge) there isn’t the same bad blood. 

[Dolfan in NYC]

40 minutes ago, The Natural said:

This alongside my Mum having seizures and it was the 9th anniversary of losing her when this show happened UK time. I also preferred Omega/Ospreay from Wrestle Kingdom 17.

Match recommendations if you're up for it...

Kazuchika Okada:

1. Okada vs. Omega, Dominion 2018. *****.

2. Okada vs. Tanahashi, Wrestle Kingdom 10. *****.

3. Okada vs. Omega, Wrestle Kingdom 11. *****.

4. Okada vs. Tanahashi, King of Pro-Wrestling 2013. *****.

5. Okada vs. Shibata, Sakura Genesis 2017. *****.

Tanahashi:

1. Tanahashi vs. Suzuki, King of Pro-Wrestling 2012. *****.

2. Tanahashi vs. Okada, Wrestle Kingdom 10. *****.

3. Tanahashi vs. Ibushi, G1 Climax 2018. *****.

4. Tanahashi vs. Okada, King of Pro-Wrestling 2013. *****.

5. Tanahashi vs. Naito, Wrestle Kingdom 11. *****.

Naito:

1. Naito vs. Okada, 40th Anniversary Show. *****.

2. Naito vs. Tanahashi, Wrestle Kingdom 11. *****.

3. Naito vs. Okada, Wrestle Kingdom 14. *****.

Natty, I love you and all.... but respectfully, this is too many 5* matches.   

If everything reaches perfection, then nothing does. 

[Octopus]

5 minutes ago, Dolfan in NYC said:

Natty, I love you and all.... but respectfully, this is too many 5* matches.   

If everything reaches perfection, then nothing does. 

7+ is the new perfect. 5* is so 2016.