Matt D Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 2 hours ago, Ingobernable said: I actually really liked the finish as a vehicle for the turn. Sanada dispatched Jungle Boy quickly and easily with a secondary finisher. No messing about, didn't need multiple big moves, Jungle Boy just isn't on the level yet and things fizzled. Like, even if he'd shown he could really hang things could have been different - that drives the frustration. This is valid but I'd rather them go more overt with it and he make some big mental mistake. You have to balance the importance of the title match for the big joint show too. Ok, what else? I wrote up Danielson vs Okada for SC and am putting it here: Spoiler Bryan Danielson vs Kazuchika Okada MD: If you've been following the site for any length of time, you know that this isn't a dream match for us. But hey, it's been nice to have Final Countdown stuck in my head for half a week, right? That said, we certainly value Danielson. He's one of five, right? I've personally got nothing against Okada. Heck, if I was actually watching his "grumpy" phase, I might not mind him one bit, and in a world of wrestling that has a tendency to get smaller and smaller as time goes on, the ability to project one's self as a star is no small thing. Still, this match was a bit snakebit, wasn't it? The crowd was still in shambles from the 40-minute epic that preceded it. Danielson got an injury with ten minutes to go. Some of the choices he made in dealing with that injury had a chilling effect upon the crowd. That said, I probably personally ended up liking what we did get here more than what we would have gotten if all went well. Moreover, I think the Danielson performance that was distilled through adversity was much unique and far more interesting than the channeled perfection we might have gotten otherwise. We're never going to judge "greatest wrestler ever" just from who can go hardest (hit hardest maybe, but not go hardest). You learn so much about a wrestler not when things go right in a perfectly planned match against an ideal opponent, but when things go askew and the wrestler has to adapt, or in moments where things are inherently less than perfect. That's when real wrestling genius shines through and in my mind, at least, that's what we got here. Here's what made this match fascinating: upon first watch, there was every impression of Danielson selling the damage to the neck by favoring his arm, and committing so thoroughly to the act that he leaned instead on the Knee, that he channeled the Yes chants for the first time in AEW to fire up but only used one arm for them, that he powered through a submission using every limb but the one that was damaged. In this scenario, he was so vulnerable, so off center, that he feigned a seizure-ridden neck injury in order to draw Okada in (which didn't work by the way; Okada went right in for the kill after a few seconds of deliberation). That in and of itself would make the match mirrors within mirrors. Except for it turned out to be mirrors within mirrors within mirrors, for Danielson's arm really was hurt. Whatever match they did or did not plan became something else in response. I read into it that Okada targeted the neck because Danielson's aggression got him up on points early, but would that have happened otherwise? Would there have been the Yes Chants? Would he have gone to the knee twice? Would he have worked the seizure spot? Would the struggle and uniqueness of the submissions at the end felt so offputting and gnarly and desperate? Probably not. Instead, it was a master whose body was failing him, who was in a match that should never have been possible, one that was denied to him the year prior, pasting together what was meant to be a dream match in front of a dream crowd using old tricks and new and making people feel. The crowd felt things that they wanted to feel, things that they dreaded feeling. Every movement carried with it layers. The calling out for the Yes chant wasn't just a Yes chant. It was one of the first ones in AEW (if not the absolute first; he's consciously not done them). It was half of one with a damaged arm. It was one by a desperate wounded Danielson. It was a ploy by the real man behind the American Dragon mask to engage the crowd despite the match going off the rails. So I don't know about this being a dream match but as a dream performance by a dream performer, it contained multitudes. It's the sort of dream that will linger, the sort that will stay with us in the months and years to come. And yeah, I watched the stupid Ospreay/Omega match because I was already there so why not, right? Spoiling these for everyone's sanity: Spoiler My biggest takeaway is that I'd like to see Ospreay against someone I actually like. He's developed a lot of good and interesting tendencies. The period where he was in control with the flag and the blood were the best parts of the match. Omega just never feels genuine to me. That's not entirely true. I liked him on his two big comebacks (including the Hulk up, sure). He seems like the logical conclusion to Randy Savage writing out notebooks of matches beforehand. To me, with Omega, it's not just the moves and the spots but the angle and the squaring up. I get the sense he's setting up scenes like a director would and it really takes me out of the match. His attention to detail is amazing but it's so amazing that it's detrimental to the organic nature of pro wrestling. The other biggest issue is that since they had to escalate so high (to a tiger driver 91 and one-winged angel, both kickouts), they shrugged off way too much stuff mid match. I hate snapdragons so much. I really do. Eventually they sold but I didn't have any rhyme or reason for when they decided to do it in the match. Also, while I get that moves have symbolic value, it's hard to go back to the hidden blade as a viable offensive move after seeing all the other crazy stuff. Really didn't like the start. They had a blood feud and started by mat wrestling. Just bullshit. They also squandered all of the heat Ospreay got. The fans got up huge for Omega bursting him through the flag and the subsequent beatdown but then by the end of the match they were chanting Fight Forever again and that just represented the match as a whole. Started with mat wrestling. Ended with that chant. Squandered all of the blood and heat and hatred along the way. The Callis stuff was kind of dumb, I guess. I don't hold it against the match as much as I do other things. You could have gotten over that the ref didn't want to stop it despite Callis trying to ruin everything better I guess. I respect Omega. I think he's very good at what he does. I just don't believe in his presence in (almost) anything he does. What he does is just not for me. I'd love to see Ospreay vs Danielson or Cassidy or Hobbs or Punk or Christian or Garcia or a chunk of other people on the roster though. He's come a long way. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go2Sleep Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 3 hours ago, Matt D said: Hide contents I'd love to see Ospreay vs Danielson or Cassidy or Hobbs or Punk or Christian or Garcia or a chunk of other people on the roster though. He's come a long way. Ospreay vs. OC was the best match on the card at last year's Forbidden Door. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 9 hours ago, StuntmanCrowley said: To the surprise of absolutely no one, Cornette hated Omega/Ospreay. In other news, Skip Bayless made a comment disparaging LeBron James. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zendragon Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 On 6/28/2023 at 8:19 AM, Matt D said: MJF vs Tanahashi: Worlds better than the Swerve match. Swerve is just a difficult opponent to work, I think. All of his stuff is so askew and stylized. He has the personality to make almost anything work but then you have to deal with his offense and that was the problem as much as anything else. Meanwhile, Max is much better at working a far simpler match. This was as simple and straightforward as could be. There were some big spots, but they were big 1989 spot, not big 2023 spots. Every trick in the book. Basically, this played into Tanahashi's current strengths instead of his old strengths and it was like the best possible 1990 Flair vs JYD match. Honestly, this was a more impressive MJF match to me than the 4 way. I get the idea that Tanahashi might have tried harder in this match and agree that they should have hid him in a tag on Collision but so much of what made this work was the layout and the opponent, not Tanahashi's level of effort. This pretty much how I felt about Danny Garcia v Tana at ROH, DG “sports entertainment” bullshit did a great job of covering up the fact that Tana is pretty much hobbled 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted June 30, 2023 Author Share Posted June 30, 2023 (edited) Meltzer: MJF vs. Tanahashi, ***1/4. Punk vs. Kojima, ****. Cassidy vs. Sabre Jr vs. Shibata vs. Garcia, ****. SANADA vs. Perry, ***3/4. Kingston/Page/Ishii/Young Bucks vs. Moxley/Castagnoli/Yuta/Umino/Takeshita, ****3/4. Storm vs. Nightingale, ***1/4. Ospreay vs. Omega, ******. Sting/Allin/Naito vs. Jericho/Suzuki/Guevara, ***. Danielson vs. Okada, ****3/4. Natural: MJF vs. Tanahashi, ***1/2. Punk vs. Kojima, ****1/4. Cassidy vs. Sabre Jr vs. Shibata vs. Garcia, ****1/2. SANADA vs. Perry, ***. Kingston/Page/Ishii/Young Bucks vs. Moxley/Castagnoli/Yuta/Umino/Takeshita, ****1/4. Storm vs. Nightingale, ***1/4. Ospreay vs. Omega, ****1/2. Sting/Allin/Naito vs. Jericho/Suzuki/Guevara, ***. Danielson vs. Okada, ****1/2. Edited June 30, 2023 by The Natural 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted June 30, 2023 Author Share Posted June 30, 2023 Anybody watched Danielson/Okada back? What do you make of it second time round and now knowing what we do? I haven't yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Moose Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 29 minutes ago, The Natural said: Meltzer: MJF vs. Tanahashi, ***1/4. Punk vs. Kojima, ****. Cassidy vs. Sabre Jr vs. Shibata vs. Garcia, ****. SANADA vs. Perry, ***3/4. Kingston/Page/Ishii/Young Bucks vs. Moxley/Castagnoli/Yuta/Umino/Takeshita, ****3/4. Storm vs. Nightingale, ***1/4. Ospreay vs. Omega, ******. Sting/Allin/Naito vs. Jericho/Suzuki/Guevara, ***. Danielson vs. Okada, ****3/4. I think there's reasonable room to quibble with the MJF and SANADA ratings, but wow, the Jericho 6-man is overrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 10 hours ago, The Natural said: Anybody watched Danielson/Okada back? What do you make of it second time round and now knowing what we do? I haven't yet. Not yet but I think Meltzer overrated the hell out of the CM Punk vs. Kojima match. That didn't feel anywhere close to 4 stars. It was a solid match, maybe 3 1/4 at most. He rated the fatal 4 way 4 stars as well and I'd have that more around 4 1/4 it should be a full star ahead of the Punk match to me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted July 1, 2023 Author Share Posted July 1, 2023 Nice touches how Kenny Omega and Jon Moxley use their NJPW themes instead. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted July 1, 2023 Author Share Posted July 1, 2023 Favourite moments: CM Punk Lariat, Kojima, Lariat, Kojima. CM Punk mocking that piece of shit Hulk Hogan. Zack Sabre Jr and Katsuyori Shibata exchange with Daniel Garcia doing his dance. Legit funny. Jon Moxley and Eddie Kingston chops exchange. Kenny Omega one count from the One Winged Angel. Tetsuya Naito's Forbidden Door debut. Bryan Danielson and The Final Countdown. The highlight of the night. Bryan Danielson submitting Kazuchika Okada which I never expected. My jaw honestly dropped at that sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Adam Bay Bay Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 On 6/30/2023 at 10:03 AM, The Natural said: Meltzer: MJF vs. Tanahashi, ***1/4. Punk vs. Kojima, ****. Cassidy vs. Sabre Jr vs. Shibata vs. Garcia, ****. SANADA vs. Perry, ***3/4. Kingston/Page/Ishii/Young Bucks vs. Moxley/Castagnoli/Yuta/Umino/Takeshita, ****3/4. Storm vs. Nightingale, ***1/4. Ospreay vs. Omega, ******. Sting/Allin/Naito vs. Jericho/Suzuki/Guevara, ***. Danielson vs. Okada, ****3/4. Natural: MJF vs. Tanahashi, ***1/2. Punk vs. Kojima, ****1/4. Cassidy vs. Sabre Jr vs. Shibata vs. Garcia, ****1/2. SANADA vs. Perry, ***. Kingston/Page/Ishii/Young Bucks vs. Moxley/Castagnoli/Yuta/Umino/Takeshita, ****1/4. Storm vs. Nightingale, ***1/4. Ospreay vs. Omega, ****1/2. Sting/Allin/Naito vs. Jericho/Suzuki/Guevara, ***. Danielson vs. Okada, ****1/2. Sorry I’m just replying now. You’d asked how I’d rank Omega/Okada and I’d rank the four bouts the same way you did. However I do think you’re being a bit generous here to say Okada/Danielson was as good as Omega/Ospreay 2. Even if Dave overrated it (I don’t think he did) the two matches weren’t of equal quality. Bryan winning felt like a given with this being an AEW show plus Kenny having already lost too. I give him all the credit in the world for the last ten minutes, but that doesn’t beat out a damn near perfect match from two of the best in the world (I can sooner see Ospreay as that than current Punk too). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted July 9, 2023 Author Share Posted July 9, 2023 (edited) 29 minutes ago, LF2 said: Sorry I’m just replying now. You’d asked how I’d rank Omega/Okada and I’d rank the four bouts the same way you did. However I do think you’re being a bit generous here to say Okada/Danielson was as good as Omega/Ospreay 2. Even if Dave overrated it (I don’t think he did) the two matches weren’t of equal quality. Bryan winning felt like a given with this being an AEW show plus Kenny having already lost too. I give him all the credit in the world for the last ten minutes, but that doesn’t beat out a damn near perfect match from two of the best in the world (I can sooner see Ospreay as that than current Punk too). I was thinking about you today as I've not seen you around. Cool how we rank Okada/Omega in the same way. I haven't seen Danielson/Okada or Ospreay/Omega since watching live at stupid o' clock in the morning. I was fading as Ospreay/Omega started needing a second wind. I just don't get Ospreay. Never have done. You know when something is heavily touted or praised and you're in the minority on? That's me with Ospreay. Edited July 9, 2023 by The Natural Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted August 4, 2023 Author Share Posted August 4, 2023 So I watched Bryan Danielson vs. Kazuchika Okada from Forbidden Door 2023 back. My favourite wrestling in 2023 moment was hearing Bryan Danielson come out to Europe's The Final Countdown. I always associate that with Danielson. There were a lot of expectations considering who were involved. I thought it was really good when watching live but I was fading and it went out on the 9th anniversary of my Mum's passing. I love Bryan Danielson, he's the #1 GOAT but that doesn't stop me criticising some of the things he does. I was so pissed off at the seizure sell knowing Bryan Danielson's history of concussions, I hate when wrestlers do fake injury angles to work people and my Mum suffered from seizures too. Took everybody out of the match. I wonder if it was an audible to give Danielson/the doctor time to look at his broken arm. I liked the match more second time round, it's just a shame that injury happened and hampered the rest of it. Shows how a match involving the GOAT in Danielson and my #3 in Kazuchika Okada, two of the best to ever do it that accidents can still transpire. I was legit shocked seeing Bryan Danielson submit Kazuchika Okada. Since Okada returned from excursion debuting his Rainmaker persona at NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 6, it's only Okada's second submission loss. The first was against Shinsuke Nakamura at NJPW G1 Climax 2015. That's huge. I hope we get the rematch, NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 18 you'd like to think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts