JULY 2016 WRESTLING DISCUSSION THREAD

[Technico Support]

On 7/9/2016 at 11:02 PM, Rev Ray said:

The problem is the Kung Fu gimmick could end up like Kung Fu Billy Graham.

I see nothing wrong with Reigns strapped to the ground in the desert

[JohnnyJ]

Bryan and Punk were not over on day one. So I don't know how you can make the argument that a lot of their success had to do with indy wrestling marks cheering them on. 

Because of their backgrounds and success Bryan and Punk get lumped in together but I see them as representing much different things.

Punk is representative of the audience that watches Raw every week for years. They know all the tropes. They can predict what is going to happen before it does. They desperately want something to be excited about and at the time all WWE would give them was Cena v. heel of the month. Punks gimmick was he was disruptive of the status quo and people got behind that. 

Bryan is the ultimate underdog and people love underdog stories. 

What they both had was authenticity. You felt like you knew them.. 

The problems with Roman are much more than the fans digging the act but rebelling because of how obvious the push was. The popularity and prevalence in  pop culture of the one-note superman archetype has decreased dramatically since the beginning of the Hogan era.  Today, action heroes are rarely big, good looking and bulky (ironically, the exceptions are the Rock and Cenas burgeoning film career). They are flawed and complex. Even superman movies are now dark and gloomy.

Reigns and his push are twenty years too late. Which doesn't necessarily mean all is lost. But you can't just give him big wins and good positioning and expect the problems to solve themselves. WWE needs to think about how to make come across as authentic, interesting and complex. What is the draw (other than his hair) to bring people in. 

 

 

[JonnyLaw]

Instead of coming back from injury and immediately winning the Rumble, he should have come back and been the first one to defeat Rusev.  A run as the US Champ would have been a more natural, organic build and kept the fans behind him.  If you ran Cena (or Bryan) against Brock at WM instead, and still had Rollins cash in, you'd be able to have Rollins lord it over Reigns and fans would be waiting for the confrontation instead of what we got.

[joseph2112]

1 hour ago, Vader does my taxes! said:

Interesting.  I"m watching the Mike and Mike show on ESPN2 and they just had ESPN business reporter Darren Rovell on to discuss the just-announced sale of UFC for $4 billion.  Rovell mentioned that Vince looked into buying the UFC years ago, but walked away in part because he couldn't wrap his head around the idea that he wouldn't be able to control the outcomes of the fights. 

If that's accurate, lol.  Lol lol lol lol.  I don't doubt that Vince is a very good businessman, but he's had his share of misses (World Bodybuilding, XFL, etc.)

No matter the reason, it is probably a good thing because the list of things Vince has made money starts and ends with wrestling. Of course he's done REALLY well at that. But the fails include just about everything else including bodybuilding, football, restaurants, politics, TOUT! and probably a bunch of things I can't remember.

[JonnyLaw]

3 minutes ago, JohnnyJ said:

Bryan and Punk were not over on day one. So I don't know how you can make the argument that a lot of their success had to do with indy wrestling marks cheering them on. 

Because of their backgrounds and success Bryan and Punk get lumped in together but I see them as representing much different things.

I don't think this has much to do with their indy career as much as their natural charisma, but they were both surprisingly over at a pretty early point in their WWE careers, certainly more so than people like Cesaro, Sami, or even Owens.

Bryan was fired after his first real appearance on the main WWE roster and was immediately getting cheers while he was gone, leading him to be the surprise member of John Cena's Survivor Series team.

Punk, while feuding with Mike Knox in ECW, was arguably the most popular member of a Survivor Series team that featured dX and the Hardys.

Whatever the reason, the crowds connected with them organically from a very early point.

[Lawful Metal]

Just watched the Chamber of Horrors match from 1991 Halloween Havoc for the first time. Some observations:

1. That's a ton of star power in this match. Sting, Vader, Scott Hall, Cactus Jack, Abdullah and more. I don't remember storyline why this match is happening, and why it has come to a strap your opponent to an electric chair head. Of course, WCW had no idea either.

2. El Gigante is gigantic. He's as tall as the ring ropes standing in the outside. He can punch people hanging on the cage from inside the ring. He's like Yao Ming. But he sucks. Also, needs muscle shirt.

3. Cactus and Abdullah are the best. I think I saw Abdullah Stan Sting in the neck with a pen. Sting threw a casket top in the air so it would land on Cactus' head. Cactus ended up throwing the switch on Abdullah. Tony tried to sell it as Cactus not realizing it was Abdullah, but come on, he threw the switch on purpose. He just wanted to see someone get electrocuted.

4. Abdullah's sell of the electrocution was fine, and I enjoyed his beatdown of the ghouls and refusing to go out on a stretcher. 

5. WTF Scott Steiner, people aren't even in the ring yet and you're hitting Tiger Drivers?

anyways, me and my son watched it and he thinks it's awesome and he wants Lucha Underground to steal the gimmick.

 

[Spritenaut 32]

1 hour ago, joseph2112 said:

No matter the reason, it is probably a good thing because the list of things Vince has made money starts and ends with wrestling. Of course he's done REALLY well at that. But the fails include just about everything else including bodybuilding, football, restaurants, politics, TOUT! and probably a bunch of things I can't remember.

I don't follow MMA at all, so I barely know anything about the history of the UFC, but I'm assuming this would have been before Dana White basically legitimized the product and made it a success.  I can't see Vince doing the same for one basic reason: even if he hired Dana to run it for him, I can't imagine his ego stepping aside and giving Dana free reign.  He'd run it like his wrestling promotion - i.e., everything flows through him regardless of who is actually in charge.  To a casual observer, it seems to me that Dana White is probably the essential factor.

Anyone know how much the WWE might be worth if Vince were to sell?  I'm guessing nowhere near $4B?  For that matter, i don't know what percentage of UFC ownership was actually sold for that amount.  A "majority interest" could be 51% or it could be 100%.  Not sure.

[joseph2112]

Funny I was wondering the same thing about the WWE. The company has basically no debt and rakes in a ton of money so I sort of think it would be in that same ballpark.

And my MMA junkie office mate says the UFC sale is for the whole deal.

[Matt D]

On the other hand, UFC not taking off would have been good for WWE.

[RIPPA]

Survivor Series (the 30th) this year will be in Toronto

[twiztor]

41 minutes ago, Vader does my taxes! said:

 i don't know what percentage of UFC ownership was actually sold for that amount.  A "majority interest" could be 51% or it could be 100%.  Not sure.

all i've read is "majority interest" also, but that both Fertittas and Dana White are keeping small portions. to me it feels like it's in that 60-70% range, although i have no facts to back that up.

[Cristobal]

51 minutes ago, Vader does my taxes! said:

Anyone know how much the WWE might be worth if Vince were to sell?  I'm guessing nowhere near $4B? 

WWE's market cap is currently ~$1.5B

[TerjeRUN]

1 hour ago, RIPPA said:

Survivor Series (the 30th) this year will be in Toronto

I remember when the 2007 (ten years after Montreal screwjob) was to be held in the very same building that happened. That would have been golden for the Bret Hart return if they subtly built it as a possibility, ala Summerslam 2005. 

[Spritenaut 32]

I'll be curious to see what happens to the WWE's stock price/market value when Vince steps out of the picture for good, either because of death or illness.  I'm assuming he probably won't retire voluntarily, unless it's for medical reasons.

In theory, the company is large and diversified, with Stephanie, Triple H, and Shane (?) ready to step in when Vince can no longer run the company.  Steph and Triple H probably have a lot of say over the wrestling product already, and presumably there are people to run the various divisions when Vince steps away.  Again, that's probably the case already.

In practice, <shrug>.  Vince doesn't seem like the type to give up power easily, and it's kinda surprising how much this enormous modern company still operates its core business like a 1970's territory promotion.  Bigger, more sucessful companies have experienced a dip when the founder/visionary steps away (Steve Jobs, Phil Knight) and I would wager they were more prepared to continue on without "the guy" than the WWE.

I'm not sure what will happen.  It will probably be fascinating to watch.

[Phantom Lord]

I'm sad the Roman redemption thing is fake. But knowing Vince, he would totally do it. I hear Roman losing his smile being said by Michael Cole. Roman's gonna stand crying in the middle of the ring on Monday night RAW the night after Battleground...after he wins back the title telling us how he's gotta earn back our respect with this title.

You know they would do it.

[Godfrey]

7 minutes ago, Vader does my taxes! said:

I'll be curious to see what happens to the WWE's stock price/market value when Vince steps out of the picture for good, either because of death or illness.  I'm assuming he probably won't retire voluntarily, unless it's for medical reasons.

>edit<

I'm not sure what will happen.  It will probably be fascinating to watch.

I'm fairly certain that Triple H's track record with his smaller projects has built up enough good will that between him and Steph investors will still think the company is in good hands. And I know it's a wrestling nerd opinion but they have to see that the old man's touch might not be 100% anymore. (I mean, it never was but even less so now.)

[RIPPA]

Advertised for RAW

- Vince doing a "review" of Shane and Steph

- Rusev vs. Zack Ryder for US Title

- #1 Contender for IC Title Battle Royal

- Sasha Banks vs. Dana Brooke

 

[JRGoldman]

I think people booed and continue to boo Roman because his quest against the authority was lazy writing at best and insulting towards fans at worst. The WWE decided that the the best way to get over the athletic attractive Samoan man who is essentially the platonic ideal of what the WWE champion should be was to....pretend that he wasn't "best for business", the exact same storyline that they did a year prior in a more believable fashion with Daniel Bryan? It served zero purpose other than play to the alleged strengths of HHH and Stephanie. 

The unfortunate side effect of the truly horrific booking of Reigns as a babyface is the mystifying fact that the majority of wrestling fans have somehow convinced themselves that he is a terrible worker, and all the problems of modern WWE would be fixed by giving Roman's push to ring generals such as Dean Ambrose, Bray Wyatt, Zach Ryder and Dolph Ziggler.

[The Man Known as Dan]

I think there's a mix of things that doomed Reigns. Number One was simply "Wrong Place, Wrong Time" on his Rumble win, in the sense that he was not nearly as over as the WWE liked to think he was. Combine that with their gigantic mistake of hyping up Bryan returning for the Rumble only to dump him before Reigns even came in, and the fact that everyone in the building knew Reigns was winning the second he was eliminated, and then had Big Show and Kane, two guys who were kinda the face of "WWE not knowing who we want to see" eliminate anyone else they viewed acceptable. The way the Rumble went down did more to doom Roman then just Roman winning. 

And, well, after that, it's more just doing what they are comfortable with. I still don't think all of it is just because they think Roman is terrible (though a lot have convinced themselves of that) as it is just general outcry to the way the company is booked now a days.

[PetrolCB]

Saw this on my local news today... 

[See link below]

What a dork.

[Dewar]

Link is leading me to a blank page.

[PetrolCB]

Yeah, dunno what the deal is. 

[Dewar]

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/business/NBC10-Responds-WWE-Refund_Philadelphia-386306511.html

There we go. And every comment points out what a whiner/loser/dork he is for complaining about "Card Subject to Change".

[Spritenaut 32]

Does anyone in these parts still watch Chikara?

Just wondering.  My Chikara dvd buying ended shortly after they restarted the promotion.  Everything that went along with the shutdown - the rumors about Quack and his wife, the "clues", oh god, the 90 page PDF document -soured me a little and I was kinda underwhelmed when Chikara 2.0 started.  That's somewhat coincidental, though.  My enjoyment of Chikara had been slowly diminishing since... year two of the BDK storyline, maybe.  I like complex storylines and long-term booking, but Quack took things a little too far.  

Just curious if anyone still watches.  Chikara barely gets mentioned at all any more, even in the indy forum.

 

[Nice Guy Eddie]

I was really into Chikara around 2008-2010. I still read their results, but I don't have the disposable income to spend on dvd's like I did. I still want to make it to King of Trios one year.