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Dolfan in NYC

JUNE 2019 WRESTLING DISCUSSION - Thread 2

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4 hours ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

Roy posted the super slow motion gif...

He hit his head on the concrete!

If only he could have landed directly on the fake LA Parka.

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2 hours ago, Web Conn said:

I've seen the Tommy Dreamer spot in the Casino Royle, and that three gifs where he wrestled with his hands in his pocket. Whats the gimmick? What matches should I watch? I would like to form an opinion.

Watch him vs David Starr. *shrug*

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3 hours ago, Web Conn said:

I've seen the Tommy Dreamer spot in the Casino Royle, and that three gifs where he wrestled with his hands in his pocket. Whats the gimmick? What matches should I watch? I would like to form an opinion.

The gimmick is, he can't be bothered. Because the default setting for an indie Wrestler is Intensity! Stiffness! So he does the opposite and acts like he doesn't care to try.

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Please put me at or close to the top of the list of people who never, ever want to see Orange Cassidy wrestle again for any reason.

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Posted (edited)

I love Orange Cassidy. It’s like Jughead Jones, The Fonz, and Ryan Gosling all wrapped up into one wrestling gimmick. But it’s blown up so much in the past two months, that it’s about to become a tired act(Even though he’s been doing it for awhile). I can still see him do this for a bit longer on a bigger stage trying out the old bits on a different audience, but it might be time for him to blend it more into a less comedic version of the character. Which he has done.

Edited by LoneWolf&Subs
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14 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

I thought I heard the working theory was that they hired EC3, but once they hired him to the main roster they remembered "oh, it's Derrick Bateman? I hated that dude. Job him out."

"WHO THE FUCK HIRED DERRICK BATEMAN?!?" is the new "WHO THE FUCK HIRED RAVEN?!?"

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3 hours ago, MORELOCK said:

Please put me at or close to the top of the list of people who never, ever want to see Orange Cassidy wrestle again for any reason.

It looks like Orange has replaced Young Bucks as an act that's seen as killing the business.  The David Starr match did a lot to change my tune on him as I was very much in the "Eh, not for me" camp.  But since Youtube now thinks I want to see an endless amount of his matches I took a peek at some of them.  When it's an obvious comedy match like against Colt or Jervis that's one thing.  But there are moments where's he actually shows he's pretty darn talented and can hold his own quite nicely.  I could definitely go for more David Starr-like matches but will give him credit for finding a gimmick that gets people talking.  If he was just a straight up wrestler I don't know if he would be getting this much attention this quickly.  But as long as he has the tools to back it up then I'll be curious to see how things play out.

2 hours ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

I love Orange Cassidy. It’s like Jughead Jones, The Fonz, and Ryan Gosling all wrapped up into one wrestling gimmick. But it’s blown up so much in the past two months, that it’s about to become a tired act(Even though he’s been doing it for awhile). I can still see him do this for a bit longer on a bigger stage trying out the old bits on a different audience, but it might be time for him to blend it more into a less comedic version of the character. Which he has done.

Now that he's gotten people talking it's definitely time for him to do that.  I'm just glad that I allowed myself to keep an open mind on the guy.

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8 hours ago, Lawful Metal said:

Off topic request: I’m looking for an old Austin Aries vs. Kenny Omega match from 2009 is have  ROH on HDNet. I vaguely remember it because Aries was wrestling for both of them and bumping like a madman. Is this anywhere online? Omega looked super young.

https://www.bilibili.com/video/av19535874/

 

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Posted (edited)

I love Orange Cassidy myself. As far as the gimmick goes, I am okay with it because he fully immerses and loses himself and 100 percent commits to it. There are definitely moments every match where standard wrestling tropes and moves are poked fun at, but it never seems like the guy behind the character is winking and nodding at the audience while he is doing it, which is where a lot of that stuff falls apart for me. 

There are definitely some standardized spots he is doing from match to match but I find he has been a lot less lazy than other comedy wrestlers about trying to do 1 or 2 things differently in each match and trying to adapt to his opponent now that his profile is getting higher.

It also helps that when things get serious, he is actually very athletic and a damn fine wrestler. 

I would say if you genuinely are curious about what is considered the gimmick at it's best, whenever Beyond posts anything for free on their YouTube channel, as I think his matches there the last six months have been the right mix of the gimmick and finally breaking down to get serious moments. 

Edited by clintthecrippler
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The first couple times I saw Orange Cassidy I was like...ok...this is cute. That's the best word to describe it. Cute.

But cute has a very short shelf life. It's like the rule of thirds. You do something funny that first time and it lands. You do it a second time and it gets better. You do it the third time and it's perfect. Anything after that, like us driving a joke into the ground each month, and it's no longer cute or charming.

And then I watched a couple other matches where he's not moving in slow motion and his opponent isn't moving in slow motion and it's like, man, he's so close to perfecting this. Like, the hands in the pockets is fine for an entrance, it's fine for a couple other spots like his hands in the pockets dive (which is also fucking scary), but beyond that, he needs to be more creative with the "I'm too cool for this shit" stuff. He can really make this work and it only needs a little bit of fine tuning, but if all he's going to do is just the same shit all the time then it's going to die soon.

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My issue with Orange Cassidy is that it fails the ‘make your opponent look stupid’ test.  I’m fine with a comedy wrestler when the laughs come from the other guy being the straight man.  But when the other guy has to stand there while you cheekily kick them, it breaks the immersion that these guys are in a fight.  I’m fine with the comedy guy being illogical and doing strange things.  I’m not fine with it creating an alternate reality where everyone plays along with the joke.  This is why the avant-garde force chokes and invisible grenades and prehensile dicks don’t work for me.  

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Posted (edited)

On Orange:

Hey look more people I have on ignore hate Orange Cassidy than people I don't have on ignore.  Will you look at that?

I like Orange Cassidy.  I don't give two shits about the integrity of professional wrestling.  Guy is a super talented worker and I'd call the gimmick smart but that no hands dive isn't really smart (but it's awesome, fuck it).  He makes me laugh.  I have a good time when I'm laughing.  

On Aerostar:

LEARN TO SAY NO YOU STUPID DUMMY

Chessman used to be the guy you trusted to catch you on those spots and he was wayyyyyyy out of place, but when someone is that high up it's really hard to not Big Bubba them, sunglasses or not.  Monster Clown got completely fucking murdered on that catch but pretty much saved Aerostar's life (though that landing was not good at all).  It's like, look dude.  You're 34 and you've been doing this shit for 15 or 16 years at this point.  It has never, EVER given you any sort of a push that has lasted more than 1-2 big shows, then you're back on the lower mid card at best.  Clearly, doing stupid dives isn't the answer.  I'm all for awesome shit in wrestling but that wasn't awesome, it was just a fucked up spot that almost killed somebody.

 

Edited by Tromatagon
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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Goodear said:

My issue with Orange Cassidy is that it fails the ‘make your opponent look stupid’ test.  I’m fine with a comedy wrestler when the laughs come from the other guy being the straight man.  But when the other guy has to stand there while you cheekily kick them, it breaks the immersion that these guys are in a fight.  I’m fine with the comedy guy being illogical and doing strange things.  I’m not fine with it creating an alternate reality where everyone plays along with the joke.  This is why the avant-garde force chokes and invisible grenades and prehensile dicks don’t work for me.  

This is where I fall. I like wrestling that can be Looney Tunes levels of silly. But in Looney Tunes, Wile E. Coyote is trying in earnest to catch that dang Roadrunner. From what I've seen, there's too much "stop and play along" going on with Orange Cassidy's ironic detachment. Also, he may not be literally winking, but that level of ironic detachment is always a wink.

Zany, unconventional tactics = Yay

This = Nay

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnrRl9VUU3s 

I understand why people might enjoy that. But it's not for me.

Edited by West Newbury Bad Boy

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21 minutes ago, Goodear said:

My issue with Orange Cassidy is that it fails the ‘make your opponent look stupid’ test.  I’m fine with a comedy wrestler when the laughs come from the other guy being the straight man.  But when the other guy has to stand there while you cheekily kick them, it breaks the immersion that these guys are in a fight.  I’m fine with the comedy guy being illogical and doing strange things.  I’m not fine with it creating an alternate reality where everyone plays along with the joke.  This is why the avant-garde force chokes and invisible grenades and prehensile dicks don’t work for me.  

You must really hate the Worm and the People's Elbow.

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Posted (edited)

Half of the Orange Cassidy spots people are freaking out about are old Kikutaro/Ebessan and Kuishinbo Kamen spots anyway, motherfuckers are ten years too late with these arguments.

Edited by Tromatagon
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1 minute ago, AxB said:

You must really hate the Worm and the People's Elbow.

It's a spectrum. If you want to take your point to its logical extreme, people shouldn't run the ropes either. Does the Worm being ridiculous make OC's stuff less ridiculous? 

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6 minutes ago, Tromatagon said:

motherfuckers are ten years too late with these arguments.

Party doesn't start till I get there. 

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I like Orange Cassidy, but I also haven't watched a ton of him. I can see how it could grow old.

But, honestly, he needs awhile to be established on AEW TV, and then you can find his "Colt Cabana/Homicide" feud.

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The problem with the worm is, you win a match by pinning a guy for three seconds. A move that requires the opponent to lay on their back for over three seconds, why didn't you just pin them? Cassidy's stuff doesn't imply that he's KOed his opponent and is just dicking around when he could be winning the match. 

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Just now, Brian Fowler said:

I like Orange Cassidy, but I also haven't watched a ton of him. I can see how it could grow old.

But, honestly, he needs awhile to be established on AEW TV, and then you can find his "Colt Cabana/Homicide" feud.

I kinda wish the kayfabe breaking thing of who be used to be was more common knowledge, but. Dude can go. 

I also have no idea how to do spoilers on mobile or I'd post it.

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It's okay I already let it slip that he was really Super Dragon you don't have to.

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{spoiler} text you want to hide {/spoiler}

Except use regular [ ] brackets

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41 minutes ago, AxB said:

You must really hate the Worm and the People's Elbow.

It depends on how you think of wrestling really.  I consider wrestling to be akin to comic books where there is an interior logic behind it that does not make sense in the real world.  A pair of glasses makes it so people can't recognize Clark Kent is Superman or if I throw you into the ropes, you will keep running.  However, that underlying narrative logic is still a logic and if you break it, the audience is left in a place where they can no longer believe in the admittedly fictional world.  So if Game of Thrones is a world where there are dragons and snow zombies, it is fine but when The Hound suddenly pulls out a machine gun, there's a issue.  Its a spectrum of ludicrous nonsense, don't get me wrong and if you like 'anything can happen' wildness, I have nothing against you.  Its just not where I would want wrestling to be.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Ryan said:

Watch him vs David Starr. *shrug*

Good recommendation. It's the farthest thing from an "everyone playing along with the joke" match. Starr is a mean bastard who brooks no bullshit, and OC is convincingly sympathetic underneath. Starr takes him lightly and gets carried away once and slips on a banana peel once, but doesn't look proper stupid. And the finish played into something earlier in the match and made sense.

I watched expecting to be turned off at some point and got sucked into the whole 25 minutes. Really entertaining stuff. Thanks for that. 

Edited by West Newbury Bad Boy
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Now that Aerostar spot got me thinking, they fucked around for however long they had to to get in the perfect spot to catch him... then failed to catch him, too. How long did it take him? If you can get any more ridiculous than wrestling with your hands in your pockets, it's probably a guy climbing up to a 30 foot balcony and letting him fall on you.

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