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Dolfan in NYC

JUNE 2019 WRESTLING DISCUSSION - Thread 2

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Perhaps some hypocrisy, but I like how Cavernario uses the worm in his matches,  where it is not really an offensive move. 

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12 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

Now that Aerostar spot got me thinking, they fucked around for however long they had to to get in the perfect spot to catch him... then failed to catch him, too. How long did it take him? If you can get any more ridiculous than wrestling with your hands in your pockets, it's probably a guy climbing up to a 30 foot balcony and letting him fall on you.

Its one of those things that is so common now where guys group up to be a living crash pad that really bothers me.  In the fantasy world where I have any control over anything, I would have matches ending on dives to the outside either getting count outs or rolling people into the ring for immediate pins (like the dive was the last move you saw in the match).  Like I've seen lots of cool shit and dives and I wish it would be treated like the ending finale instead of filler.

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2 hours ago, Tromatagon said:

On Orange:

Hey look more people I have on ignore hate Orange Cassidy than people I don't have on ignore.  Will you look at that?

 

We'll always have Gronda.

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Re: Orange Cassidy.

I'm personally not a fan of comedy wrestling, but I can't fault a guy for working a gimmick that gets him a pay day with a fraction of the wear on his body. Of course, those no hand topes balance that out I imagine.

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Posted (edited)

I enjoy the hell out of comedy wrestling, myself. As a result, I've seen a number of Orange Cassidy matches as of late. I still miss the Florida Brothers.

 

 

Edited by Ace
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4 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

Bryan vs Rollins announced for Raw. 

Wow, they couldn’t book that match for Sunday?

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2 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

Wow, they couldn’t book that match for Sunday?

I assume him along with everyone else not booked for the show will be used as seat fillers so the place doesn't look so empty. 

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49 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

I assume him along with everyone else not booked for the show will be used as seat fillers so the place doesn't look so empty. 

You joke, but with as big as there roster is, they could prolly fill the stands with staff and crew who know the "script" and force a perception change on guys if they really wanted to go all in on the work.

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1 hour ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

Wow, they couldn’t book that match for Sunday?

It probably ends in a schmozz, or just doesn't even happen.

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If it's a match that's given a lot of time and doesn't end in a fuck finish, then I'll watch the DVR recording. If not.... well, it's getting deleted like it has been for the past few weeks.

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3 hours ago, odessasteps said:

Perhaps some hypocrisy, but I like how Cavernario uses the worm in his matches,  where it is not really an offensive move. 

Well call me a hypocrite too. I liked the old way that Booker T did the spinnaroonie, with him no selling a missed elbow drop. Sometimes the stupidest things that make no sense in wrestling get over, and you can’t stop doing it as a performer. 

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MLW on their TV show just announced as 'Coming soon' not only 

Spoiler

Savio Vega

but also 

Spoiler

Dr Wagner Jr

 

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6 hours ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

I assume him along with everyone else not booked for the show will be used as seat fillers so the place doesn't look so empty. 

Related image

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14 hours ago, AxB said:

The problem with the worm is, you win a match by pinning a guy for three seconds. A move that requires the opponent to lay on their back for over three seconds, why didn't you just pin them? Cassidy's stuff doesn't imply that he's KOed his opponent and is just dicking around when he could be winning the match. 

This is also the problem with every top rope move to a downed opponent in wrestling history though, wrestling just has intrinsically weird logic around how the human body responds to accumulated damage. Doesn't make any irl sense but it's great for building tension

I don't know if it's always unconditionally bad to make your opponent look stupid. Like when Naito does his "actually no I can't be bothered to lock up yet" stroll or the tranquilo flop, somebody could easily drop him with a straight right but, like OC, it's often done nearer the start of the match and the opponent is kind of confounded/thrown off their game/momentarily paralysed by irritation. In Naito's case it makes him seem like a dick who likes mind games, with OC it's usually at the expensive of the local pompous heel. Most of the OC stuff I've seen has had the payoff of him busting out some genuinely impressive stuff that surprises his opponent later. I guess also the fact that his "casual" stuff is genuinely skilled in execution makes people feel they're not being taken for idiots as well, it's just a different kind of athleticism

AEW do need to be a bit careful with how they use him though, integrating that act into a nominally "serious" promotion with TV, ongoing continuity, a stated commitment to seeming like a sports product - different kettle of fish to light relief in matches at an indie show

 

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Past week, I had a Facebook On This Day Memory. I wanted to bring it here one time only as a reminder of Jonathan Coachmen's commentary:

Jonathan Coachman sucks so bad on WWE commentary. He reached his lowest point (which is saying something) with this stupidity as Nia Jax had Ronda Rousey in a bear hug at WWE Money in the Bank 2018 last night: "This might be an advantage for Ronda Rousey. It's allowing Ronda Rousey to get a little bit of a rest."

The bear hug takes your breath away, you f'n moron. Even Michael Cole and Corey Graves called Coach out on that. Bloody hell.

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My take on/explanation for the top rope move/move to a downed opponent instead of just pinning them has always been that wrestlers are intrinsically conditioned to kick out of any pin attempt, so just because they're laying on their back for 3, 5, 10 or more seconds, it doesn't mean they're not going to kick out of a pin attempt. That's why the kill shot makes sense to me.

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There's a fight or flight response to hearing the count that doesn't exist otherwise. Wrestlers switch into a different gear in that moment. 

Most of the things that are most frustrating is when they break normal pro wrestling logic, not when they utilize normal pro wrestling logic as it is usually utilized.

That's why this is the most validating move in pro wrestling history:

OyYYDg.gif

It makes what's normally a breach of pro wrestling logic (namely, the foot-up transition during a double axe handle attempt to a prone opponent) be shown to be something that could actually work out (even if Arn had to hold the leg). It's sort of the same as the question of why Flair always went up to the top rope if he was just going to get tossed off (because he won the NWA title that way). 

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Posted (edited)

Seeing @Nice Guy Eddie post photos of Claudio Castagnoli and Cesaro using the Alpamare Waterslide last night on RAW, I got to thinking. Which matches of his would you recommend to someone as a sample of his work? I've come up with in chronological order:

ROH vs. CZW Cage of Death. ROH Death Before Dishonor IV.

Kings of Wrestling vs. Briscoe Brothers. ROH The Big Bang 2010.

Antonio Cesaro vs. Kofi Kingston. WWE Main Event, 1st May 2013.

Antonio Cesaro vs. Daniel Bryan. WWE RAW Gauntlet match, 22nd July 2013.

Antonio Cesaro vs. William Regal. WWE NXT, 25th December 2013.

Antonio Cesaro vs. Randy Orton. WWE Smackdown, 14th February 2014.

Cesaro vs. John Cena. WWE RAW, 17th February 2014.

Cesaro vs. Kevin Owens vs. Rusev. WWE RAW, 13th July 2015.

The Bar vs. The New Day. WWE Roadblock: End of the Line 2016.

The Bar vs. Dean Ambrose/Seth Rollins. WWE No Mercy 2017.

Thanks.

Edited by The Natural

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Posted (edited)

Claudio vs. Alex Shelley- This Means War

KOW vs. Aries & Strong- Glory By Honor V: Night 2

The Claudio/Brodie Lee Chikara feud

ROH's Race to the Top Tournament, especially the finals, Claudio vs. El Generico

Claudio vs. Morishima

Claudio vs. Brent Albright vs. Morishima

 

 

Edited by Nice Guy Eddie
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Claudio Castagnoli vs Mike Quackenbush, Chikara, Negative Balance

Manami Toyota & Mike Quackenbush vs. Sara Del Rey & Claudio Castagnoli, Chikara

Both are fun matches. I anyways liked Quackenbush vs Castagnoli/Cesaro. Cesare is so good vs guys shorter than him but I felt like they both never had a dull match.

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4 hours ago, Yo-Yo's Roomie said:

My take on/explanation for the top rope move/move to a downed opponent instead of just pinning them has always been that wrestlers are intrinsically conditioned to kick out of any pin attempt, so just because they're laying on their back for 3, 5, 10 or more seconds, it doesn't mean they're not going to kick out of a pin attempt. That's why the kill shot makes sense to me.

Top-rope moves are called "high-risk," but what's left unspoken is the second half of that phrase: "high-reward."

The logic is that a move done from height allows you to use the magic of gravity to amplify the impact of your move to knockout levels. A wrestler that does such a move is making a simple trade-off - risk of losing control of the match or severely damaging themselves in trade for a knockout blow that might then get a three-count where a move done on the mat would not do so. 

As the post above says, it's an attempt at a kill shot that virtually guarantees your victory unless you're wrestling a dude who has connected with the vaguely Native American spirits that power him, in which case even five kill shots won't fucking work. 

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I was gonna post this in the NXT thread but it is interesting enough for here.

KUSHIDA has posted a couple of these since joining NXT and it is a interesting look at someone trying to adapt to over here

 

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