GuerrillaMonsoon Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) Not sure when the ladder match jumped the shark but it absolutely has. Easily the worst thing of AEW is it's penchant for throwing guys out there in a multi man ladder match with the lowest stakes imaginable and telling them to go kill themselves despite almost all of them resulting in some form of serious injury. No rhyme or reason for these matches, just one spot lined up after another, just competing for a Sonic ring or a non descript shot at a mid card title at some point in the future, that they mostly go on to lose. Don't like that in WWE they became so entrenched in the main event scene because it was easy to move titles around with guys not having to take a clean pin on PPV, and subsequently most of the finished were tainted. Jeff/Taker was a favourite of mine. The first Shawn/Razor holds up against most of them thirty years later. Triple H/Rock was pretty good too. A recent one that was enjoyable was AOP vs DIY on an NXT PPV that gave the underdogs a decent shot in theory against the monster challengers who just wore everything they could throw at them and ran over the top. By contrast, I really love the Pure Title stipulations and wish that was used as a regular stipulation on TV, where guys can absolutely benefit from taking losses with an asterisk when their rope breaks run out. Edited January 21 by GuerrillaMonsoon 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuerrillaMonsoon Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 How have we not had a Bunkhouse Stampede featuring all the hosses on the AEW roster only for it to be won by Orange Cassidy dressed as Woody from Toy Story? 2 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 I know Penta and the Bucks aren’t well liked around here, and I’m a part of that for the Bucks, but that ladder match at one of the early AEW shows was bonkers. I think it was All Out 2019, where Santana & Ortiz debuted after it was over. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxB Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 The Pac vs Kenny Omega 30 minute Iron Man match was really good. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zendragon Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 When WWF was part of the NWA and therefore Flair was above Backlund 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuerrillaMonsoon Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 Did Flair make many trips to New York around this time as champion? I'm assuming not (I know he had that draw with Backlund). I wonder if that was due to politics or how structured the territory was at the time of long term babyface champion, #2 babyface was heating up the next challenger, and #3/4 were thrown together in a random tag team, so there was never really any reason to bring him in? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister TV Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 3 hours ago, zendragon said: When WWF was part of the NWA and therefore Flair was above Backlund Not really, the NWA champion was never mentioned on WWF tv expect when Harley showed up for the MSG match against Backlund. On WWF tv they would call Backlund either the WWF champion or World Champion, it was never really consistent, at house shows in Pittsburgh he’d always be billed as “World Cham-peen”. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister TV Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 2 hours ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said: Did Flair make many trips to New York around this time as champion? I'm assuming not (I know he had that draw with Backlund). I wonder if that was due to politics or how structured the territory was at the time of long term babyface champion, #2 babyface was heating up the next challenger, and #3/4 were thrown together in a random tag team, so there was never really any reason to bring him in? Flair worked MSG in 1976 before he was NWA champion, the standard upcoming star from another territory working a preliminary match to get in the magazines, that was it until 1991. Backlund talks about the Omni match with Flair in his book, if I remember right he felt Flair and Jim Crockett Jr were acting kind of shady before the match, a so maybe that killed any chance of a MSG match like Backlund had with Harley. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorman Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 My favorite gimmick match to announce is an Iron Man match because it has a scoreboard and clock like other sports, leading to lots of great psychology and strategy. I announced Punk vs. Daniels for IWC, but the audio got messed up. I was happy when I was asked to announce the whole thing again! Best one I ever called was Danielson vs. Doug Williams in the main event of Scramble Madness. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSmUgly Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 Re: Ladder matches, Shawn/Razor II is the best ladder match I've seen because of the targeted limb work being so good. I've probably written this before a couple times, but that match and Lynch/Banks at one of those Takeovers in 2015 have far and away the best targeted limb work done in a WWF/E ring. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SovietShooter Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 9 hours ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said: Not sure when the ladder match jumped the shark but it absolutely has. IMHO, the laddermatch jumped the shark when it became a McGuffin for crazy dives and stunts, rather than two guys beating the shit out of each other with a ladder. I think cage matches have generally jumped the shark too. The purpose of a cage is to keep interference out, and keep the wrestlers in. Now, the sole purpose of the cage is for them to get out of it so there can be a brawl on the outside (or a crazy dive off the cage). I want cage matches where they beat each other bloody inside the cage. Sammartino-style escape-the-cage matches I don't like to begin with, as it makes no sense from a psychology standpoint; "I want to get this guy 1-on-1 in a cage, so I can then run away from him!!!" 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octopus Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 9 hours ago, Casey said: I know Penta and the Bucks aren’t well liked around here, I’m not a Bucks guy but I loooooooooove Penta. His look, his taunting, his unbelievable charisma. I just want to watch him every show. He’s not my ~style~ but he’s so fantastical that I can’t help but be unbelievably happy when I see him. I don’t know all the backstage or visa stuff, but if I had any say I’d put him on every late night show and comedy as a random recurring dancing character that beats up the bad guy. Put him in El Santo type Spanish speaking movies. He should be TNT Champion and in every TNT commercial. I love Penta. today I will ponder my Octo 8. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) 13 hours ago, SirSmUgly said: I'm inclined to agree with you on those Iron Man matches and remain steadfast in my belief that thirty-minute Iron Man matches are far superior to their hour-long counterparts. I think the best hour-long Iron Man match was the Bret/Owen fancammed one, and it doesn't touch either of the matches you listed. The second-best hour-long one was IMO HHH/Rock, and I am lukewarm on it and like it much less than the consensus. Agreed. 2 hours ago, SirSmUgly said: Re: Ladder matches, Shawn/Razor II is the best ladder match I've seen because of the targeted limb work being so good. I've probably written this before a couple times, but that match and Lynch/Banks at one of those Takeovers in 2015 have far and away the best targeted limb work done in a WWF/E ring. Limb work matches are my favourite. Bret Hart was a natural at it. Wrestlers who have a submission finisher should work on the body part first like Bret and Bryan Danielson. The best dueling limb work match I can think off the top of my head is Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Minoru Suzuki at NJPW King of Pro-Wrestling 2012. It's a must see if you haven't. *****. Edited January 21 by The Natural Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Octopus said: I’m not a Bucks guy but I loooooooooove Penta. His look, his taunting, his unbelievable charisma. I just want to watch him every show. He’s not my ~style~ but he’s so fantastical that I can’t help but be unbelievably happy when I see him. I don’t know all the backstage or visa stuff, but if I had any say I’d put him on every late night show and comedy as a random recurring dancing character that beats up the bad guy. Put him in El Santo type Spanish speaking movies. He should be TNT Champion and in every TNT commercial. I love Penta. today I will ponder my Octo 8. You know I love you, David but this is probably the only thing we disagree on. I can't fucking stand Penta. He's a CAW that spams the taunt button repeatedly to get his finishers up. I want to reach threw my screen and slap him back and forth across the face like Obelix does in the Asterix the Gaul comic books. Fuck Penta. Edited January 21 by The Natural Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octopus Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 9 minutes ago, The Natural said: You know I love you, David but this is probably the only thing we disagree on. I can't fucking stand Penta. He's a CAW that spams the taunt button repeatedly to get his finishers up. I want to reach threw my screen and slap him back and forth across the face like Obelix does in the Asterix the Gaul comic books. Fuck Penta. To each there own lol. On paper, I should like Penta but he transcends all beliefs and ideologies. That’s how talented his dancing is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 11 hours ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said: Not sure when the ladder match jumped the shark but it absolutely has. When the ladder became the end and not the means, so pretty early into the history of ladder matches. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 I think the TLC match at WM X7 was the jump the shark moment. It happened just to have the Hardys/Dudleys/E&C have a car crash match on the show/reprise the past year. It was both the culmination of their feud and what ladder match’s could be and the beginning of using ladder match’s to cram guys into a card in a match to pop the crowd 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbarrie Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 6 minutes ago, Sublime said: I think the TLC match at WM X7 was the jump the shark moment. It happened just to have the Hardys/Dudleys/E&C have a car crash match on the show/reprise the past year. It was both the culmination of their feud and what ladder match’s could be and the beginning of using ladder match’s to cram guys into a card in a match to pop the crowd At least the name made sense then, because the match featured one team associated with tables, one with ladders, and one with chairs. Then for a few years "TLC match" meant a multi-team ladder match, which sort of worked. Then the Edge/Cena TLC match happened in 2006, and for the last decade and change WWE has been pretending a "TLC match" and a "ladder match" are two different match types. (Yes, the linguistic absurdity bugs me more than the overuse of ladder matches. But that bugs me too.) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt McGirt Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 3 hours ago, SovietShooter said: Sammartino-style escape-the-cage matches We should make a distinction between Sammartino style and escape the cage, even. Sammartino style was, he beats the shit out of you until he gets tired of beating the shit out of you, and walks out. Escape the cage is what it says it is. (The best escape the cage is Patterson vs. Backlund btw and if you haven't seen that then go on Youtube and get to it) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zendragon Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 Shot of The Sheik's Big Time Wrestling at Cobo Hall 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExcellenceofAirPollution Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 https://www.tmz.com/2024/01/20/man-arrested-disorderly-conduct-tried-open-door-taylor-swift-building/ Cops referred to him only as "David". I did a F'n triple take Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jm29195 Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 8 hours ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said: Did Flair make many trips to New York around this time as champion? I'm assuming not (I know he had that draw with Backlund). I wonder if that was due to politics or how structured the territory was at the time of long term babyface champion, #2 babyface was heating up the next challenger, and #3/4 were thrown together in a random tag team, so there was never really any reason to bring him in? Is the Flair/Backlund match taped anywhere? Just finished the Ric Flair biography and I'm gutted WWE never released a 'Ric Flair Unreleased' blu ray before they stopped making physical media, like they did with Piper, Hogan and Michaels. There's so much out there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuerrillaMonsoon Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 4 hours ago, SovietShooter said: IMHO, the laddermatch jumped the shark when it became a McGuffin for crazy dives and stunts, rather than two guys beating the shit out of each other with a ladder. I think cage matches have generally jumped the shark too. The purpose of a cage is to keep interference out, and keep the wrestlers in. Now, the sole purpose of the cage is for them to get out of it so there can be a brawl on the outside (or a crazy dive off the cage). I want cage matches where they beat each other bloody inside the cage. Sammartino-style escape-the-cage matches I don't like to begin with, as it makes no sense from a psychology standpoint; "I want to get this guy 1-on-1 in a cage, so I can then run away from him!!!" Agreed. There's also the wink wink referencing of a cage match by the commentary team that it's always going to be the next step in a feud, never the definitive conclusion, you're trained to expect a fuck finish in it. It's there to highlight a monster heel ripping the door off or the babyface jumping off of it. Nothing more. I miss the break in the show to construct the cage, as I felt like it built anticipation for what's to come, rather than there just be a random cage hanging above the ring at the start of the show only to randomly announce a cage match to no one in attendance's surprise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Commander Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 5 hours ago, SovietShooter said: IMHO, the laddermatch jumped the shark when it became a McGuffin for crazy dives and stunts, rather than two guys beating the shit out of each other with a ladder. Ladder matches without anything exceedingly important at the top of the latter are a bit superfluous Ladder matches pretty much replaced "Object on a pole" matches, partly because the logic/logistics of putting something on a pole that couldn't easily be captured, and maybe a little because Russo's 2000 made pole matches a bit of a joke 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinit Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 43 minutes ago, jm29195 said: Is the Flair/Backlund match taped anywhere? Just finished the Ric Flair biography and I'm gutted WWE never released a 'Ric Flair Unreleased' blu ray before they stopped making physical media, like they did with Piper, Hogan and Michaels. There's so much out there! Given WWE gave us The Last Battle of Atlanta as a hidden gem on the network, there's a chance that Flair/Backlund is somewhere in their archives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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