JANUARY 2024 Wrestling Talk

[Curt McGirt]

There's bare-knuckle and MMA stuff on BeIN Sports (home of MLW) that kinda fills that specification. The MMA show I saw has a triangular ring which is pretty odd.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

3 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

There's bare-knuckle and MMA stuff on BeIN Sports (home of MLW) that kinda fills that specification. The MMA show I saw has a triangular ring which is pretty odd.

Good call on BFKC - some people will say it hinders their growth but I kind of like the whole feel, it reminds me of renting the really old UFC and King of the Cage stuff from Blockbuster during the "this is human cockfighting"-era, where they'd just throw it out on the shelf randomly next to Fall Brawl '95 or whatever

[Coletti]

13 hours ago, Coletti said:

Matt Cardona and Kota Ibushi just got name dropped on the Emmys. What a fucking world. 

Quoting myself to mention that apparently PWH's agent is named Ryan Ibushi but whatever, still cool as fuck. 

[Zakk_Sabbath]

Wait, you guys watched the Emmys? I thought that stuff was all fake

[Elsalvajeloco]

2 hours ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

A bit off topic: I was thinking about this last week after a convo I was having with El Savaje about boxing numbers on SHO in the context of speculating on potential AEW premium cable/streaming viewership in the future: I wonder if there would be any money in a purposely low-budget, semi-poorly-lit, small/unique venue ('gritty!') boxing show, with more of a fight club type presentation, ala Lucha Underground or ECW. Its had to have been tried at some point, right??

Edit: I guess there was a slight bit of that in the HBO 'Boxing After Dark' DNA but I'm saying take it even further

They have been versions of that with a slight caveat. Like you mentioned with HBO BAD. That was basically born out of the old Gillette fight night cards back in the 50s and 60s in the birth of sports on TV (along with pro wrestling of course). However, that's probably why boxing skews old to begin with cause you're taking an old ass formula from execs who would have had to been old enough to remember that. They had to put a modern spin on that of course. Thing is eventually just like we see with wrestling today is what was designed for something else eventually itself gets repurposed and/or made to have sameness. BAD eventually just became HBO World Championship Boxing with a slightly smaller budget and just on at an hour later. There was like a two year period where Lampley and old ass Larry Merchant had to wear more informal wear or Hawaiian shirts (which just made them look even older) and Lampley making weird sexual laden, snarky comments about the ring card girls in between rounds. Then, when that didn't work, they pivoted to creating KO Nation to try to infuse it with hip hop and slotted that in the afternoons. That was suppose to be what the first few months of Shotgun Saturday Night was with a more nightclub atmosphere with the early 2000s hip hop vibe and aesthetics. They allowed fans to vote on what hot rap song was out at the time to be the walkout song for the fighters and made Ed Lover the ring announcer. Went over like a fart in church and was canceled after a year due to bad ratings. That was pretty much the end of HBO doing stuff like that. However, the late Cedric Kushner did the Thunderbox heavyweight tournament and Heavyweight Explosion theme shows around the the same time and that lasted for about four or five years until Kushner left boxing altogether. It was just random, low level fringe contenders or faded former contenders so it didn't make it past being on whatever syndicated channels no one watches.

Since then, there have just been a bunch of random fly by nights ones like BET doing a couple of cards which featured Andre Ward and being promoted by Jay Z under his RocNation banner. That went down hard when a fighter in their stable suffered a serious brain injury spoke up about how crappy he was treated afterwards (got dropped by RocNation while in the hospital and then left to pay for hefty medical bills). FS1 did a few cards for some Miami based promotion that used Mike Tyson as the front man. Lasted for a few months and Mike ended up suing them IIRC. Triller tried to do the KO Nation model 15 years+ after HBO did and lost a ton of money even with the Paul brothers associated with it. Golden Boy did their Fight Night cards on Ustream (back when that was still a thing) and other streaming platforms from Club Nokia in L.A. Live for a number of years with just prospects from the South California area. That morphed into a spot for a little while on late night ESPN after like SportsCenter and then now on DAZN but now emanating from the Fantasy Springs Casino in Indio, California and may feature an occasional world title fight on rare occasions.

ShoBox ran for a long time on Friday nights with Gordon Hall as the matchmaker and sometimes had that type of vibe, but I don't think it was explicitly made to be that. It was just mainly prospects who weren't big enough draws to do anything other than a casino ballroom or a smaller arena. Then, when Showtime wanted to feature UK and international talents like Ricky Hatton or Carl Froch or Mikkel Kessler, they would do shows across the pond with the ShoBox label instead of Showtime Championship Boxing. It was a mix of stuff depending on the location and the names involved. Sometimes it would be more Tuesday Night Fights on USA. Sometimes it would be the old Top Rank shows on ESPN back in the 80s and 90s. There was no set standard formula until the final years where all the shows were in mostly very small venues with lower level prospects outside of a Devin Haney or Regis Prograis cause most of the actual prospects were tied to other promoters with exclusive deals. Thus, interest for the series pretty much went down even though the fights were fine to entertaining cause Gordon Hall was a good matchmaker.

So yeah, there have quite a few attempts at it. However, it's very tough to go backwards when most casual fans tune on really only to see the big fights. The hardcore base has dwindled so it's made shows like that non essential especially with most of the prospects being thrown on major PPV/big show undercards. Top Rank, since they don't have a stacked roster like the old days, fills out their ESPN and ESPN+ cards with their best prospects. And Top Rank is the only one who has a linear TV deal, which may or may not be in trouble. Even if it's not in trouble, nothing indicates they are deviating from that formula. You're not using your few draws or attractions on smaller cards. It's mostly prospects that would be used for those type of "gritty" cards for younger audiences. 

[Curt McGirt]

Forgot to mention that I turned on BeIN recently, the MMA show was on and a fight had just ended; one of the participants straight up had a pumpkin head from the beating he took. So if you're looking for carnage there you go. 

Edited January 16 by Curt McGirt

[Elsalvajeloco]

On the BKFC/bare knuckle fighting in general note, it's very hard to quantify the popularity right now. I actually happened to see an article on it late last night while watching the Eagles/Bucs game on the "growing" popularity, but I didn't see many metrics. Yeah, I do think it appears to those who loved the old SEG era UFC/pre regulation MMA. However, if the current UFC audience is niche, why would you try to build around something even more niche like old school MMA? Whether you like AEW or not, we can likely all agree is built on an organic movement. The question was, "okay, how big can this be?" followed with "Is this something that only appeals to a certain core audience?". Five years later, we have a clearer picture. That's only cause we have the ratings as arbitrary and archaic as the system can be as well PPV numbers + attendance numbers. You have zero of that for bareknuckle fighting. It's not doing well enough on paid streaming platform to get numbers reported and it's not on TV. It's just social media impressions. I dunno what you can glean from that other than people can stumble upon it. Will they actually pay for it? That's the only way it can stay alive.

[Curt McGirt]

If people are willing to pay tickets, it'll get filmed. 

[tbarrie]

4 hours ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

 wonder if there would be any money in a purposely low-budget, semi-poorly-lit, small/unique venue ('gritty!') boxing show, with more of a fight club type presentation, ala Lucha Underground or ECW. Its had to have been tried at some point, right??

I'm not big on boxing, but I would watch the heck out of a Lucha Undergroundesque boxing show, if complete with spacemen, dragons, and mysterious Aztec medallions.

[Elsalvajeloco]

51 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

If people are willing to pay tickets, it'll get filmed. 

And that's what I am worried about. 

But yeah, there isn't even much on the ticket sales outside of just your basic eye test of, "that seems like a moderately sized crowd in a moderate sized arena". You're still paying your headliners, who as the article I referenced noted, are notable ex UFC fighters. They're not paying those dudes breadcrumbs especially with the likes of PFL out there.

40 minutes ago, tbarrie said:

I'm not big on boxing, but I would watch the heck out of a Lucha Undergroundesque boxing show, if complete with spacemen, dragons, and mysterious Aztec medallions.

I am surprised Mexican promoters (that I know of at least) never went this route. The Aztec stuff will play just cause there have been a bunch of fighters who have had Aztec themed entrances. The one I most remember is Fernando Vargas back in 2000 against Felix Trinidad. Although I am pretty sure Canelo probably did something Aztec related during the pandemic. 

I did however find Canelo's entrance from his fight last year from Guadalajara that seemed to be Hella expensive considering most Mexican boxing related productions don't have much money associated with them. Definitely reminds me of when the Klitschkos use to fight in Germany and some of the surrounding countries later in their careers.

 

[AxB]

The thing about the Bare Knuckle Boxing 'explosion' is, both Bas Rutten and Ken Shamrock were involved in Bare Knuckle promotions (it made it look like they were part-owners, but they were most likely just being paid to publcise someone else's shit). But, like, you lads aren't boxers. The people want Bare Knuckle MMA. Dump the shitty Unified Rules and give us MMA with 12-6 elbows, Soccer Kicks, Guillotine Knees and Headbutts legal! You could promote it as the TRUE No Holds Barred fighting, say it's better than the UFC!

[Zakk_Sabbath]

6 minutes ago, AxB said:

The thing about the Bare Knuckle Boxing 'explosion' is, both Bas Rutten and Ken Shamrock were involved in Bare Knuckle promotions (it made it look like they were part-owners, but they were most likely just being paid to publcise someone else's shit). But, like, you lads aren't boxers. The people want Bare Knuckle MMA. Dump the shitty Unified Rules and give us MMA with 12-6 elbows, Soccer Kicks, Guillotine Knees and Headbutts legal! You could promote it as the TRUE No Holds Barred fighting, say it's better than the UFC!

I forgot about those two being on the promo stuff (and just remembered I think Paige Van Zandt had a fight or two didnt she?)

I don't hate your idea at all, and would have no qualms giving it my proverbial "entertainment dollar," but reality is, there's like a 100% chance someone would eventually die in the ring lol

[Curt McGirt]

Bas announces for one of those groups.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

3 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

Bas announces for one of those groups.

It isn't BKFC, but now that Ax mentions it, I do think Bas was involved in a bare knuckle promotion as more than just an announcer/pitch man at one point because I have this (possibly false) memory of there being some kind of match-fixing allegation about a fight somewhere in like Ukraine or Moldova or some other ex-Soviet satellite a while back. I have to research further on lunch

[Elsalvajeloco]

11 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

I forgot about those two being on the promo stuff (and just remembered I think Paige Van Zandt had a fight or two didnt she?)

I don't hate your idea at all, and would have no qualms giving it my proverbial "entertainment dollar," but reality is, there's like a 100% chance someone would eventually die in the ring lol

PVZ had a few bareknuckle fights and one she got lumped up pretty badly in. She is one of those folks currently under a pretty good deal money wise with a bareknuckle promotion.

As for ditching the unified rules, the only place you do that in is outside the commissions. Even then, I am not sure the old PRIDE rules + elbows being allowed is something that's going to accelerate fan growth. ONE FC has soccer kicks and everything else. RIZIN does as well minus the elbows IIRC. You may notice though, if you see a pretty good fighter against another good fighter, rarely did you get a lot of those techniques banned under the unified rules. You get that every once and awhile at the high level. It isn't enough to generate fan interest. With bareknuckle fighting and stuff adjacent to it, the fighters are not of at level where those things would actually matter. You're watching some dude who would get destroyed either by a good UFC fighter or a good actual boxer/muay thai fighter/kickboxer beat up another guy of the same ilk. They can do whatever and folks won't care. So you can put in a place with loose regulation and no one will care.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

5 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

. ONE FC has soccer kicks and everything else.

Damn, I forgot about ONE. We tried it out for a few weeks when Dynamite was its lead-in, but it didn't do much for me, it was just sort of there. And more to your point: i don't remember a damn thing about the rules. That said, I'll admit: even though it's apples and oranges, after a full AEW card, my attention/appetite for that kinda thing may have just been burned off by 10, so I may not have the most trustable opinion on it

Edited January 16 by Zakk_Sabbath

[zendragon]

6 hours ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

A bit off topic: I was thinking about this last week after a convo I was having with El Savaje about boxing numbers on SHO in the context of speculating on potential AEW premium cable/streaming viewership in the future: I wonder if there would be any money in a purposely low-budget, semi-poorly-lit, small/unique venue ('gritty!') boxing show, with more of a fight club type presentation, ala Lucha Underground or ECW. Its had to have been tried at some point, right??

Edit: I guess there was a slight bit of that in the HBO 'Boxing After Dark' DNA but I'm saying take it even further

I can remember a show like this, basically a step below ESPNs Friday Night Fights (which also got cancelled) back in the 2000's on maybe MSG network. Didn't really go anywhere

[Zakk_Sabbath]

18 hours ago, zendragon said:

I can remember a show like this, basically a step below ESPNs Friday Night Fights (which also got cancelled) back in the 2000's on maybe MSG network. Didn't really go anywhere

I'm not the right guy to ask but you might be talking about Broadway Boxing?

[Zakk_Sabbath]

19 hours ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

It isn't BKFC, but now that Ax mentions it, I do think Bas was involved in a bare knuckle promotion as more than just an announcer/pitch man at one point because I have this (possibly false) memory of there being some kind of match-fixing allegation about a fight somewhere in like Ukraine or Moldova or some other ex-Soviet satellite a while back. I have to research further on lunch

Circling back to this: turns out, it was like, way more in depth than that. Here's a link with Bas' side of the story if you have six hours to kill:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02zmdvCjvUZyxKoiQKDnXcu2sfCpsjQnHSMfW27vTXocpB1KRoCboSPxa7zPUGX1U4l&id=146491048754602

[Log]

Moldovian bare-knuckles fighting sounds like something Gary Hart would claim that his latest charge used to compete in before coming to World Class to finally take out the Von Erichs once and for all.

[Cobra Commander]

“This man. Was locked in Soviet prisons. Where you have to fight. To survive. He learned. Moldovan Bare Knuckles fighting. The Russians knew. He was too dangerous. And they sent him. To America. To lay waste to their enemies”

[Log]

19 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

“This man. Was locked in Soviet prisons. Where you have to fight. To survive. He learned. Moldovan Bare Knuckles fighting. The Russians knew. He was too dangerous. And they sent him. To America. To lay waste to their enemies”

Perfect. 

I mean, I can hear Hart in my head saying “Moldovian”. 

[odessasteps]

It’s no Melting Pots of Sin.

[Cobra Commander]

Then when the Soviet career criminal gimmick goes to Mid-South, Bill Watts would tell the audience about the Gulag Archipelago and he would call it a Goo-lag to remain consistent with how he says Duggan. Which is probably the right way to say Gulag but.

[odessasteps]

Drew Gulag?