Double or Nothing III - 5/30/2021

[J.T.]

31 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

100% absolutely not. That's one thing I scratch my head about reading the AEW threads here. 

I don't think AEW peeps are so thumbs down on long title reigns as they are thumbs down for a long title reign for Kenny Omega in particular. 

Putting the belt on a heel champ that everyone wants to see die is classic Southern booking, but the usual caveat is that you only despise the heel champ purely out of kayfabe.  Booking gives him as long of a title reign as they can in order to infuriate as many worked fans as possible but deep in the foul recesses your smark's black heart, you secretly love the guy.

Omega is a very polarizing worker.  Some think this belt collector gimmick is working and some think it is already past its freshness date.

Edited June 1, 2021 by J.T.

[Just Dave]

That's 100% right, and it goes for the Tag champs, too. I think more fans than not are getting tired of this smarky, pretentious horseshit. And not from a "good heel character" perspective. It's from a "fuck these self indulgent dweebs and their internet nonsense" perspective. I'm still irritated that the Bucks just walked away from Mox & King, instead of being stretchered out like they would have in any other situation.

Edited June 1, 2021 by just drew

[AxB]

So when you say "More fans than not", that's a survey size of one person (yourself) you're basing that off, yeah?

[NoFistsJustFlips]

You both make good points. But even if the champions are unlikable, I disagree with short reigns. Those are concerns that need to be addressed before the title reign, not during them. I didn't like Hogan at all. But it's inarguable that his reigns were epic. And that's what I'm going for with my thought process. Even if a segment of the fan base is turned off by the champion, doing quick changes does a disservice to the long term purpose of titles being important.

If Omega had dropped the title to OC and won it back on Friday, who does that help? Omega is still the champ after Friday so the people turned off by him are still mad. OC gets to say "I was champ" but that means nothing because he had zero moments in his reign. Fans of OC are also annoyed because their guy got chumped out. The belt also loses value because of the flip flops.

Wanting to see the champs you don't like get beat is what the whole business used to be based on. If you don't like The Bucks, well that's great. You now get to experience what people in the 80s that hated Flair experienced. That's a blessing, not a curse.

[J.T.]

34 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

I didn't like Hogan at all. But it's inarguable that his reigns were epic.

I don't think you can really use Hogan as an example of a title reign that lasted too long because it's colored by 20/20 hindsight.

At the time, Hogan was perceived as a positive role model and he pretty much carried the WWE on his back.  Knowing what we know about Hogan now, it seems like it was a really bad call, but it's not exactly looking at the title reign from the context of when it happened.

I agree that Kenny should've won on Sunday because you don't set someone up for a J-Crown gimmick just to take a belt off of him only a few weeks since he captured his latest title.  You're not even giving him time to rile people up.  I just think that smarks kinda hate this gimmick for Kenny because they think it stinks of vanity similar to what people think of Cody putting himself over Anthony Ogogo.

It's only a good J-Crown gimmick if the champ garners respect from the fans for all of the titles and right now, the AAA Mega Championship belt serves no purpose other than to keep Kenny's left shoulder warm when he comes to the ring.   Kenny should be using this gimmick to elevate all of the titles he now possesses and he is doing a pretty shit job of that.  He has to elevate all of the titles individually because there is no fucking way that AAA or Impact will unify all of those belts under the AEW World Title.

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by J.T.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

3 minutes ago, J.T. said:

At the time, Hogan was perceived as a positive role model and he pretty much carried the WWE on his back.  Knowing what we know about Hogan now, it seems like it was a really bad call, but it's not exactly looking at the title reign from the context of when it happened.

This is an interesting conversation, because I also thought of Hogan when I was posting earlier, but I was thinking of the '97 WCW reign as opposed to any of the earlier WWF stuff. 

Basically, and maybe I'm alone in my interpretation of this, but I'm looking at Kenny/Callis as Hogan/Bischoff, except were eventually going to get a proper ending instead of the Starrcade/SuperBrawl nonsense.

[NikoBaltimore]

1 hour ago, Craig H said:

Which wrestler was it that was saying that Eddie has no idea how over he is and once he's in front of a crowd, that crowd is going to go fucking crazy for him? Was it Moxley? Someone else? Either way, they were 100% right. Kingston has so much natural charisma and is one of those guys that easily reaches through the screen to connect with people in such a way that makes people want to see him and happy to see him.

I believe Mox said it when talking with Alvarez.  But Eddie said when talking with Meltz that he kind of doesn't want to think about that as it would mess with his head.  I can't wait for them to get to New York as I can only imagine how special that would be for him.

[John from Cincinnati]

Short reigns, fluke reigns, and flip flops all ought to occur at some point so that they're seen as legitimate possibilities. Not saying they ought be a majority or even extremely common. But being absolutist in not presenting them is handcuffing yourself and not contributing to the possibility that anything can happen.

Edited June 1, 2021 by John from Cincinnati

[NoFistsJustFlips]

7 minutes ago, J.T. said:

I don't think you can really use Hogan as an example of a title reign that lasted too long because it's colored by 20/20 hindsight.

You're 100% right. I should have used Flair as my example. His reigns were also inarguable epics. And he is better comparison for heel Kenny.


I know it's 2021. But you're not supposed to like heels. @just drewis an avid Kenny Omega hater. GOOD. He's the bad guy. That's how he's supposed to make you feel. At some point we all fell so deep in the wrestling bubble we forget we're even in the bubble. You shouldn't get mad at the promotion when the champ is a heel you don't like. Be mad at the heel. Anticipate him getting his ass kicked. Pull for your guy beating him. That's how wrestling is supposed to work.

I would have a different view if Kenny were supposed to be a face. But he's not. He's a heel. A scumbag cheating heel. Same with The Bucks. Trust in the storytelling. If AEW doesn't give us a satisfying babyface win when it's time, be mad at that. I'll be pissed off with you. Until then, enjoy the ride.

[J.T.]

12 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

This is an interesting conversation, because I also thought of Hogan when I was posting earlier, but I was thinking of the '97 WCW reign as opposed to any of the earlier WWF stuff. 

Well, that you can blame on (once again) zeitgeist.  Hogan and the nWo were ridiculously over and no one had any idea how to end the nWo era without killing the gimmick allowed them to compete with and outdraw the WWE.  WCW painted themselves into a corner and had to commit to the nWo because ratings even when it was pretty clear that the nWo gimmick was far past its expiration date.

At least that is my layman's observation which I admit does not include analysis of WCW's murky locker room politics and "rumored" nepotism at the time.

Edited June 1, 2021 by J.T.

[Web Conn]

I think Luger winning the WCW title on the 100th episode of Nitro then losing it back to Hogan 6 days later at Sturgis didn’t a lot to harm the blow off that was suppose to be Sting vs Hogan. Luger was over at the time and the fans went crazy but it hurt the bigger picture. Luger got Stings pop 4 months too early. Orange is over abs will stay over he got sooo close which only further legitimizes him in the fans eyes as a World Title Contender. If Hangman is suppose to be the one to dethrone Kenny then Hangman should be the win to dethrone Kenny.

[Curt McGirt]

On Wednesday, Kingston and Moxley should 100% have Rick Knox tied up somewhere threatening to do something real bad to him if they don't get their rematch.

I wonder what was actually in the bag. Roll of tube socks? Jake's laundry? They should have gimmicked the bag with a blood pack to really freak people out. Bad idea probably, but I'm a sicko.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

39 minutes ago, J.T. said:

Well, that you can blame on (once again) zeitgeist.  Hogan and the nWo were ridiculously over and no one had any idea how to end the nWo era without killing the gimmick allowed them to compete with and outdraw the WWE.  WCW painted themselves into a corner and had to commit to the nWo because ratings even when it was pretty clear that the nWo gimmick was far past its expiration date.

At least that is my layman's observation which I admit does not include analysis of WCW's murky locker room politics and "rumored" nepotism at the time.

Naturally! No disagreement, I'm just operating under the hopeful assumption that the booking here won't be strangulated by things not working for Kenny, brother.

[The Natural]

 

[Go2Sleep]

I'd agree that there is a possible distinction between good and bad heel heat, but that difference mainly boils down to whether or not people are actually tuning out of the product because of it. I don't really see that happening with Kenny Omega. He was always a very popular babyface, and a guy that a good chunk of AEW fans have been following for several years. The audience seems to be taking his heel run in good spirits and the ratings haven't fluctuated too much. He's also about as reliable as it gets for a modern epic, which might not be everyone here's cup of tea, but it is pretty important for what AEW is presenting as a company.

There's a large gap between not fitting your personal tastes and actually hurting a company.

[matt925]

2 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

On Wednesday, Kingston and Moxley should 100% have Rick Knox tied up somewhere threatening to do something real bad to him if they don't get their rematch.

I wonder what was actually in the bag. Roll of tube socks? Jake's laundry? They should have gimmicked the bag with a blood pack to really freak people out. Bad idea probably, but I'm a sicko.

Don't forget Dynamite is Friday again this week (and possibly the few after that but its unclear).

[Craig H]

3 hours ago, The Natural said:

 

Dude, I went from laughing hard to being in tears for Sammy and Fuego.

[Krone]

My only issue with Kenny and the Bucks being champions is that I have no idea what the ultimate endgame could be. For Omega, it has to be Hangman, there is just no other person who should take the belt off of him than Adam Page and as much as I want it to be at All Out in a couple months, I still think that it's too early for Kenny to lose the title. Whether the answer is Full Gear, Revolution next year or next years All Out, I'd love to see Kenny hold the belt for a very very long period of time. Make him a monster heel  and continue to build Hangman up. He's over as it is now, but I'd just love to see the chase longer with fans in attendance.

The other side is the Bucks. Who dethrones them? Are we leading to a Sting/Darby vs. Bucks match at All Out?

[Wyld Samurai]

3 minutes ago, Krone Meltzer said:

My only issue with Kenny and the Bucks being champions is that I have no idea what the ultimate endgame could be. For Omega, it has to be Hangman, there is just no other person who should take the belt off of him than Adam Page and as much as I want it to be at All Out in a couple months, I still think that it's too early for Kenny to lose the title. Whether the answer is Full Gear, Revolution next year or next years All Out, I'd love to see Kenny hold the belt for a very very long period of time. Make him a monster heel  and continue to build Hangman up. He's over as it is now, but I'd just love to see the chase longer with fans in attendance.

The other side is the Bucks. Who dethrones them? Are we leading to a Sting/Darby vs. Bucks match at All Out?

I'm thinking Santana/Ortiz is going to be built up over the summer.

[EVA]

30 minutes ago, Krone Meltzer said:

My only issue with Kenny and the Bucks being champions is that I have no idea what the ultimate endgame could be. For Omega, it has to be Hangman, there is just no other person who should take the belt off of him than Adam Page and as much as I want it to be at All Out in a couple months, I still think that it's too early for Kenny to lose the title. Whether the answer is Full Gear, Revolution next year or next years All Out, I'd love to see Kenny hold the belt for a very very long period of time. Make him a monster heel  and continue to build Hangman up. He's over as it is now, but I'd just love to see the chase longer with fans in attendance.

 

Are you trying to kill @John from Cincinnati?

Edited June 1, 2021 by EVA

[Krone]

27 minutes ago, Wyld Samurai said:

I'm thinking Santana/Ortiz is going to be built up over the summer.

I'd totally be okay with them. Someone else here added Best Friends and I think they would be the other best choice. Outside of those two teams, there's really nobody else that I see (excluding FTR) in position for a title run. Hell, give Uno and Grayson a push for the Dark Orders sake. I wouldn't mind them being the ones to dethrone the Bucks.

[John from Cincinnati]

12 minutes ago, EVA said:

Are you trying to kill @John from Cincinnati?

No mention of Dark Order. I may live. Barely. 

[A_K]

Everything is mood & rhythm. The music, attires, characters .. all swell together to create the effect. Long reigns across all belt classes creates, by definition, monotony. Belts should not change hands simply for the sake of it, but if the narrative can provoke short title reigns in ways that make sense & create relevancy, then it is an interesting direction to take. Mankind's couple-of-weeks reign in 99; Kane's one-night reign. These were all provocative events that contributed to the electricity of the time & sense of anything-can-happen. Enough time has passed at AEW with consistent, stable reigns that they could carry a surprise here and there.

Catching this show in drips & drabs. Did watch Bucks/Mox/Kingston. To be honest its one of the first really "Big Leagues" bouts I think they've really pulled off. The entrances were epic & sincere; crowd reactions were intense; closing action great. A really, really effective bout in my opinion that moved away from the "playing at epic-wrestling" I think they've been guilty of on occasions, and towards a sincerely unique experience on its own merit.

[Jiji]

Only problem with short reigns is it has to make sense. Bucks, Kenny, and Miro should all be dominant champions. Britt is dwarfing everybody else on the women's side aside from Thunder Rosa, who isn't signed full time, and is a distant second. So why switch? I agree though, that after that you don't need big dominant runs. Kenny's only had the belt for a little over six months. 

[J.T.]

Bucks are one of the crispiest tag teams in the fed but dominant?  I'm not so sure about that with teams like FTR, Best Friends, and Santana / Ortiz having nearly as much pedigree.  The Bucks should be clowning midcard teams like the Sydals or the Varsity Blondes, but they also have the benefit of Elite protection if they are in the ring against equal competition.

Kenny Omega is a solid worker and he's also got the Elite protecting his ass.  Kenny shouldn't be booked to rely on the Elite all the time though.  His international experience should carry him through most one-on-one match ups.  No one who has beaten guys like Mox and Okada should be saddled with a fly by night title reign.

Miro is a wrecking ball.  He should be killing everyone not named Lance Archer or Brian Cage.

Edited June 2, 2021 by J.T.