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2 hours ago, Firebreaker Chip said:

I was glad to hear Ambrose take some time to deride the annoyingly persistent bullshit that current WWE guys' big problem is that they don't take time to establish a relationship with Vince and pitch him ideas, as if he wouldn't just scream "WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU" and chase 95% of them out of his office

What did he say about Austin? I missed that

 

I’m pretty sure that was the dig at Austin. While it may have been, he’s certainly not the only Attitude Era guy to talk about needing to establish a relationship with Vince. Even Jericho has made that comment before on his pod.

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Jericho shilling was hilarious. It worked. I kinda want steak now.

I didn't love the kayfabe opening right before...a very non-kayfabe expose of backstage dealings. It was dissonant. 

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1 hour ago, Doc Townsend said:

Jericho stopping the show to shill products every 20 minutes was hilarious.  Jericho trying to talk me into buying kitty litter was not something I expected to hear today.

 

FWIW all the ad spots are taped separately but Jericho does it in a way that sounds like an extension of the conversation. I'd love it if he tried to do them live during interviews, maybe let his guest ad lib a little it. Moxley talking about cat litter would've been golden, I'm sure. 

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The Ambrose podcast is wildly damning. It's every criticism we've levied against the WWE for the last few years all rolled up in one. Every possible fan criticism which we just sort of speculated on but couldn't possibly know about for sure, or couldn't know it was quite so bad. Suffering Succotash times 1000. It's basically every possible take on Vince except for "He's blind now!" It's one thing to see the second-hand evidence of it. It's another to just hear story after story after story of what the environment's like in there, even for someone who constantly pushes back and stands up for himself. I think, if anything, people are underplaying it.

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Posted (edited)

Moxley was classy in the way he didn’t shit on any of the workers. He just shitted on the old man’s outdated lame storytelling, and the process it takes to flex his creative muscles.

He did totally get the drop on the company by doing something I’ve hardly heard of wrestlers doing, and that’s creating a big budget trailer for himself without the company knowing. I can imagine this will be a big thing in the future for soon to be released wrestlers. 

I mean think about it. Titan owns your name. Why not spend a little extra cash to produce ads announcing to your following that not only are you still working, but announce your new identity(or old, in Moxley’s case). Sure it won’t work for everybody, but for a Dean Ambrose it’s perfect. 

I think this release has stung a lot for the WWE. Even with all the PR spin to control the story by them, Jon & AEW still got the best out of this situation.

Edited by LoneWolf&Subs
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11 hours ago, MORELOCK said:

"Vince is out of touch in several different ways" =/= "Literally every bad thing and borderline insane conspiracy we've ever had about Vince is true"

 

26 minutes ago, Matt D said:

The Ambrose podcast is wildly damning. It's every criticism we've levied against the WWE for the last few years all rolled up in one. Every possible fan criticism which we just sort of speculated on but couldn't possibly know about for sure, or couldn't know it was quite so bad.

Hive Mind? Not here, brother.

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Amen. Dissenting opinions; diverse perspectives; a perceptive argument that makes you sit up and go ‘I never thought about it like that before’.

It’s what Cody said about diversity in the media scrum and it’s what the DVDVR forum brings, at its best.

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51 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

Moxley was classy in the way he didn’t shit on any of the workers. He just shitted on the old man’s outdated lame storytelling, and the process it takes to flex his creative muscles.

He did totally get the drop on the company by doing something I’ve hardly heard of wrestlers doing, and that’s creating a big budget trailer for himself without the company knowing. I can imagine this will be a big thing in the future for soon to be released wrestlers. 

I mean think about it. Titan owns your name. Why not spend a little extra cash to produce ads announcing to your following that not only are you still working, but announce your new identity(or old, in Moxley’s case). Sure it won’t work for everybody, but for a Dean Ambrose it’s perfect. 

I think this release has stung a lot for the WWE. Even with all the PR spin to control the story by them, Jon & AEW still got the best out of this situation.

Honestly, given these things said, I'd be willing to go further with the hot take:

The PR spin and how WWE handled the Ambrose leave was all deliberate. WWE knew for a fact the Ambrose leaving story would leak, the fact that Ambrose was obviously leaving for AEW was there. In addition, it wouldn't shock me if WWE knew TNT was probably going to AEW quicker than other people did.

Throw all those things together and the way WWE handled the leave seems to have been less "we're going to give Ambrose a sendoff so hopefully we can work with you again" and more "We're not giving them the satisfaction. Not this time. We're going to make it a plot point Dean Ambrose is leaving, we're going to give him a flowery, emotional sendoff, and we're doing it so that AEW can't make him their Lex Luger/Scott Hall 'shot heard 'round the world' moment because literally every AEW fan would know Moxley's leaving, and probably going to AEW."

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I think you're giving way too much credit to a guy who wanted to have one of the best talkers in the business cut a promo about poop scoopers and vaccines. Vince texted Moxley months ago trying to get him to stay well into this month so they could do a run of Shield farewell shows for the European tour.

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1 hour ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

 

He did totally get the drop on the company by doing something I’ve hardly heard of wrestlers doing, and that’s creating a big budget trailer for himself without the company knowing.

The "big budget" trailer cost 8 grand.  Talent doesn't always cost a shitload of money and we are beyond the point of affordable technology making what anyone does on par with what studios do.  Wrestling just doesn't get how to catch up yet or think outside the "way wrestling shit normally looks" box.

Undergrad college courses shoot on the same cameras that shot the first Avengers movie.

It's not a budget issue, it's a vision issue.  Hopefully Moxley starts a trend in THAT direction.

If you want to make wrestling evolve, be the company that changes the way wrestling looks for the better (and reach enough of an audience that people notice).

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

 

Throw all those things together and the way WWE handled the leave seems to have been less "we're going to give Ambrose a sendoff so hopefully we can work with you again" and more "We're not giving them the satisfaction. Not this time. We're going to make it a plot point Dean Ambrose is leaving, we're going to give him a flowery, emotional sendoff, and we're doing it so that AEW can't make him their Lex Luger/Scott Hall 'shot heard 'round the world' moment because literally every AEW fan would know Moxley's leaving, and probably going to AEW."

Didn’t really work. Moxley’s debut was the big story coming out of that show. The video Moxley made with Nick Mondo made everybody know “I’m not taking a long break”, and really helped light that fuse. Is it on the same level as Hall’s debut? Maybe not, but I think this is comparable to Luger in terms of impact for the company out of the gate.

Edited by LoneWolf&Subs
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And I'm pretty sure they gave Moxley the send off they did because two of their bigger stars in Reigns and Rollins are best friends with the guy. It didn't stop them from trying to do things that, in their mind, would bury and devalue him (the Nia Jax program), or giving him a final fuck you in the form of a $500 check for that Last Chapter show. You can't go with the scenario presented AND ALSO be of the opinion that WWE doesn't see AEW as competition and a threat, since if they didn't, what would be the point of any of that? If WWE thought AEW was just another indie, why go through all of this trouble? It's either they're a little shook and the scenario mentioned is true, or they don't care at all about AEW (for better or worse) and did all of that because of monetary reasons and because of who his friends are/his position in the company.

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

Honestly, given these things said, I'd be willing to go further with the hot take:

The PR spin and how WWE handled the Ambrose leave was all deliberate. WWE knew for a fact the Ambrose leaving story would leak, the fact that Ambrose was obviously leaving for AEW was there. In addition, it wouldn't shock me if WWE knew TNT was probably going to AEW quicker than other people did.

Throw all those things together and the way WWE handled the leave seems to have been less "we're going to give Ambrose a sendoff so hopefully we can work with you again" and more "We're not giving them the satisfaction. Not this time. We're going to make it a plot point Dean Ambrose is leaving, we're going to give him a flowery, emotional sendoff, and we're doing it so that AEW can't make him their Lex Luger/Scott Hall 'shot heard 'round the world' moment because literally every AEW fan would know Moxley's leaving, and probably going to AEW."

While I agree, they seem to have only gone that route after trying to bury him with Nia and EC3 backfired. Poor EC3 seems to be the biggest victim in this also.

One thing that I kept going back to while listening to the podcast was Punk’s “Vince is a millionaire who should be a billionaire” bit. Moxley’s stories were basically one long explanation of what Punk meant by that. Even if Vince is now a billionaire, he should be richer/should have been one faster, and if he listened to his talent more, his top competition would still be Impact or RoH rather than AEW.

Honestly, the most damning thing to me is that Vince still takes the time to write scripts for people, even his top stars. There’s absolutely no need for him to regularly be involved at such a granular level. He’s hired a writing staff that has to justify their existence by coming up with stuff for people and angles who don’t need it, and he still tries to do everything himself.

Edited by JonnyLaw
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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, JonnyLaw said:

Even if Vince is now a billionaire, he should be richer/should have been one faster, and if he listened to his talent more, his top competition would still be Impact or RoH rather than AEW

I disagree with this. Cody was never going to become what he has in WWE. Omega and the Young Bucks would still have had their rise in the indies and Japan. Khan was looking to form competition to WWE regardless of All In because he is a money smark. If Vince listened the shows would likely be better, possibly even do better in ratings and attendance, but something bigger than Impact and ROH was always coming.

Edited by Eivion
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6 minutes ago, JonnyLaw said:

Honestly, the most damning thing to me is that Vince still takes the time to write scripts for people, even his top stars. There’s absolutely no need for him to regularly be involved in such a granular level. He’s hired a writing staff that he’s to justify their existence by coming up with stuff for people and angles who don’t need it, and he still tries to do everything himself.

This.

Also, I disagree with those who were saying that Ambrose will never work there again. I thought he didn't come off bitter at all and basically it was a long form version of saying he has creative differences with the WWE. There is a list of workers a mile long who said way worse things and came back at some point. I'm not saying it's next year, but "never" isn't even a real word in pro wrestling. 

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Just now, joseph2112 said:

but "never" isn't even a real word in pro wrestling. 

I'll put a lot of money on CM Punk never going back to WWE.

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1 minute ago, Casey said:

I'll put a lot of money on CM Punk never going back to WWE.

People with bigger grudges have come back.  Crazier things have happened.

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2 hours ago, JonnyLaw said:

I’m pretty sure that was the dig at Austin. While it may have been, he’s certainly not the only Attitude Era guy to talk about needing to establish a relationship with Vince. Even Jericho has made that comment before on his pod.

I remember New Day way on Talk is Jericho after Vince was on Austin's podcast and Big E said straight up that they pitched Ideas all time that got shot down. I recall a few other talent saying the same thing during that time. 

Now talent have become more open about their frustrations and its guys like Sasha and the Revival and Moxley that love the art. 

Like Moxley said,  If anything AEW and the like can spark WWE to change its internal structure of how they handle talent and give the more creative freedom

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Just now, Casey said:

I'll put a lot of money on CM Punk never going back to WWE.

I agree with the sentiment and I'd bet it too but I wouldn't put a ton of money on it if you know what I mean. Even after all that happened I feel like the WWE would have him back and your already halfway there. Vince retires, HHH buries the hatchet and has him in for a Wrestlemania match/payoff. It's not impossible and I bet in 98 people would have said the same about Bret. 

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6 minutes ago, Eivion said:

I disagree with this. Cody was never going to become what he has in WWE. Omega and the Young Bucks would still have had their rise in the indies and Japan. Khan was looking to form competition to WWE regardless of All In because he is a money smark. If Vince listened the shows would likely be better, possibly even do better in ratings and attendance, but something bigger than Impact and ROH was always coming.

Cody obviously doesn’t have the same trajectory if he stays in WWE, but does he even leave if they gave him the Mania match with Dustin or listened to him when he said he wanted out of the Stardust gimmick? If he stays, who makes the bet with Meltzer that leads to All In? If Vince listened, Ambrose and Jericho don’t leave and Khan ends up buying Impact or MLW, but doesn’t get the TNT deal.

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Cody didn’t want the WrestleMania match with Dustin, though. And Tony Khan was always going to have his own promotion instead of buying an existing one. The only difference would be who’d be the main WWE cast away if Jericho and Moxley stay, and Punk either stays as well or still doesn’t agree to be the first signing like Khan wanted in reality.

Even if Vince listened to every single one of his employees, there’s always going to be someone unhappy. Maybe in the alternative reality you’re presenting, it’s someone bigger that leaves. Maybe it’s someone just a notch below Jericho/Moxley. Who knows.

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I will never forget the date. May 13, 2004  I was at an indy show in Pittsburgh. After the show I was chatting with CM Punk, SJK (Corey Graves), Matt Cross, and a couple of fans. During the conversation Punk was adamant "I will never work for Ian Rotten again, he treated me like shit and I am done with him"  Well a month or so later and he and Colt are back working IWA-MS.  So never say never when it comes to Punk. If HHH or Vince can give him the one thing he wants (the mania main event) he will be back.   It's almost like when JJ Dillon was stupidly trying to court Sting in 97. Everyone knew the one thing he wanted was the match with Hogan.  The one thing Punk would want is the Mania main event.  Offer it to him and he will be back.

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So you’re comparing 2004 Punk, who was still wrestling in front of like 100 people, to what 2019 Punk would want - who is now married, is financially stable, contracted to the UFC and doing things outside of wrestling that he always wanted to do? And along the way, using a storyline from 1997 WCW to justify what you’re saying.

Alright, bud.

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35 minutes ago, joseph2112 said:

I agree with the sentiment and I'd bet it too but I wouldn't put a ton of money on it if you know what I mean. Even after all that happened I feel like the WWE would have him back and your already halfway there. Vince retires, HHH buries the hatchet and has him in for a Wrestlemania match/payoff. It's not impossible and I bet in 98 people would have said the same about Bret. 

How much of some of those guys returns had to do with there being only one major Promotion, maybe that doesn't mean anything, but if a company like AEW was around in the mid 00s up till today and they were willing to  treat them like legends like they did for DDP and Bret at DoN some of those guys probably wouldn't be so quick to make up with Vince, some of those guys knew that they had kids or family in the business so why not make good with Vince. If WCW used Bret good and they were still around, I'm not sure Bret would've be cool with Vince again, then again maybe so

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