AUGUST 2018 WRESTLING DISCUSSION.

[OSJ 5,480]

13 hours ago, Eivion said:

How did you come to this reasoning?

Thought I explained the reasoning within the original post itself. Quite simply, I think LuFisto was ten years ahead of the curve in NA when it came to actually WRESTLING. I'm not saying that without her you have no revolution in women's wrestling in NA, but I don't think that she gets all the credit she deserves for demonstrating on a consistent basis that solid, ass-kicking matches were not limited to joshi. Certainly she wasn't the only woman in NA capable of putting on a hard-hitting match, but she was a game-changer in a number of areas, perhaps most importantly showing that it was perfectly okay to not look like one of VKM's model types and furthermore,  that a 140 lbs. woman relying on superior speed and agility could indeed work an effective match with a much larger male opponent. I'm not going to say that her matches with Kevin Steen and Necro Butcher are ***** affairs, they obviously aren't, but they ARE much, much better than one would initially anticipate.

She's obviously on the downside of her career now and considering her injuries and other health issues it really is a testament to her work ethic that she's still at it (albeit having lost a step or two), but like I said, she really came along ten years too early. She's had some dreadful health problems including cancer and a stroke, but can definitely still go. Considering how far women's wrestling has come in NA over the last ten years can you imagine how much she'd be in demand today if she were 28 as opposed to 38?  I'm sure not saying that 38 is over the hill, but with the aforementioned health issues and the general wear and tear from over two decades in the ring I'm afraid that 38 is likely far closer to retirement than it to another decade in the ring.

[MORELOCK 3,141]

The Women's Revolution is a result of WWE giving the fans what they want, for once. They, of course, will not receive any credit here for that. Mostly because of the ham-fisted, self-congratulatory way they handle it. And I guess because they aren't pushing the "right" women. 

[Eivion 3,654]

41 minutes ago, OSJ said:

Thought I explained the reasoning within the original post itself. Quite simply, I think LuFisto was ten years ahead of the curve in NA when it came to actually WRESTLING. I'm not saying that without her you have no revolution in women's wrestling in NA, but I don't think that she gets all the credit she deserves for demonstrating on a consistent basis that solid, ass-kicking matches were not limited to joshi. Certainly she wasn't the only woman in NA capable of putting on a hard-hitting match, but she was a game-changer in a number of areas, perhaps most importantly showing that it was perfectly okay to not look like one of VKM's model types and furthermore,  that a 140 lbs. woman relying on superior speed and agility could indeed work an effective match with a much larger male opponent. I'm not going to say that her matches with Kevin Steen and Necro Butcher are ***** affairs, they obviously aren't, but they ARE much, much better than one would initially anticipate.

Weren't a decent amount of the known Indy women from then working matches with men? There wasn't exactly  a worthwhile women's promotion for them until Shimmer started. A lot of those women weren't model types.

[ivpvideos 385]

Ronda Rousey proving that women can draw on a large level in UFC was a huge part of the Women’s revolution being a thing.

i like Lufisto as much as the next person, but c’mon 

[Casey 7,597]

Liv Morgan debuted 4 months before that RAW episode in July where 3/4's of the NXT Horsewomen debuted. Stephanie saw what raw talent Liv had and decided to speed up the women's revolution on the main roster so Liv could really shine when she eventually debuted.

I mean, after all, she is a white female with blonde hair.

[Brian Fowler 14,873]

TNA's Knockouts division was really good for quite awhile as well

[Eivion 3,654]

Yeah, that is kind of my point. I like what I've seen of LuFisto, but pushing her as a trailblazer ahead of her time when there were so many other women who were also getting talked up and noticed for their talent around the time she became a thing feels off.

[Matt D 12,673]

Cheerleader Melissa feels like the most essential person for her two roles, no?

edit: I totally meant Del Ray. Was replying on the go. Maripisa's cool and all though.

[Raziel 8,463]

It's cute we're talking about LuFisto's place when no one's talked about Sara yet, or Allison Danger, or basically anyone that was on SHIMMER 1.

 

Basically, no wrestling fans in the US gave a serious shit about Women's wrestling until SHIMMER started and TNA presented a Women's Division on National TV as a serious thing and not just underwear matches with 1 or 2  actual workers carrying people on their back.

 

You could also probably throw a bone to CHIKARA for booking women equally to men as well.

[Casey 7,597]

I wouldn't even talk about Allison Danger or Sara Del Rey or LuFisto before mentioning Mercedes Martinez.

[Raziel 8,463]

Yes, she's in that conversation too.

[Nice Guy Eddie 21,757]

I feel like Daizee Haze deserves some honorable mention, along with the Minnesota Home Wrecking Crew, now International Wrecking Crew (Lacey, Rain, Jetta).

As far as the WWE women's revolution, it's Sara Del Ray. Sara Del Ray was trained by Bryan Danielson, so we can thank him for the women's revolution. 

[Niners Fan in CT 14,936]

I went to an ROH show in 2006 that had Daizee Haze vs. Sara Del Ray on it.  People were into it.  People were into the TNA Knockouts too.  WWE was what a decade late on this?  That's not bad for Vince,  he probably thinks the biggest shows on TV are Friends and ER.  

[odessasteps 13,474]

I remember when Chikara started, they (quack and joanne)  were planning on there also being a womens promotion. But that never materialized. 

[Pete 15,807]

27 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

I remember when Chikara started, they (quack and joanne)  were planning on there also being a womens promotion. But that never materialized. 

TBF, Joanne did run at least 1-2 joshi shows (Kiryoku Pro). That's just as far as they got with it.

[sabremike 3,014]

I think it's a totally fair statement to say that LuFisto was born a decade too soon, much the same way James Mitchell was probably born 10-15 years too late.

[Casey 7,597]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

TBF, Joanne did run at least 1-2 joshi shows (Kiryoku Pro). That's just as far as they got with it.

I think it was more like 3 or 4 cards, but eventually it was co-branded with CHIKARA. I'm not even sure if any of the shows had 100% of the matches between women, either. I know there was at least one all men match on every card for Kiryoku Pro.

[odessasteps 13,474]

My bad. I didnt recall them ever running. 

[tbarrie 800]

1 hour ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

That's not bad for Vince,  he probably thinks the biggest shows on TV are Friends and ER.  

That would put him more up-to-date than this board. We still think it's Seinfeld.

[Edwin 4,917]

Is Billy Jack Haynes still rambling on Facebook? I can came across a shoot interview clip of his on YouTube and it's just as nuts. I remember him challenging Stone Cold to a $100,000 UFC fight on PPV...

[Nice Guy Eddie 21,757]

 

12 minutes ago, tbarrie said:

That would put him more up-to-date than this board. We still think it's Seinfeld.

Obviously, not the biggest anymore, but still the best.

[Casey 7,597]

Curb Your Enthusiasm is better.

[Nice Guy Eddie 21,757]

13 minutes ago, Casey said:

Curb Your Enthusiasm is better.

Seinfeld, then Curb for me.

[Edwin 4,917]

52 minutes ago, tbarrie said:

That would put him more up-to-date than this board. We still think it's Seinfeld.

[OSJ 5,480]

1 hour ago, sabremike said:

I think it's a totally fair statement to say that LuFisto was born a decade too soon, much the same way James Mitchell was probably born 10-15 years too late.

Spot on, perfect analogy! I'm not going to get all goofy like some folks and declare Mitchell to be an all-time great, but you could plug him in to the 1970s WWWF and he smokes two of the three Wise Men (Blassie & Albano). Nowhere near as good as Memphis Jimmy Hart, but better than WWF Jimmy Hart.  Funny thing about Mitchell is despite what I said about him not being an all-time great the list of guys that were consistently better for a longer period of time is actually a pretty short one.  

The obvious choices are clearly better, (Heenan, Cornette, Gary Hart, Grand Wizard, & J.J. coming readily to mind...) But Mitchell had to contend with a situation that few others did and that was essentially an entire industry that had been browbeaten by VKM into believing that managers no longer had a place in wrestling. Sure, there was an over-saturation level reached at one point when they started dragging in guys like Paul Jones (every bit as bad a manager as he had been great as a wrestler), Oliver Humperdink, who managed to seize onto everything that Lou Albano did poorly and somehow do it worse and Curtis Iaukea. Then you had the folks that were wildly inconsistent depending on location and the cast that they had to work with. Paul Heyman could be one of the best and one of the worst within the same one-hour program. Skandor Akbar and Paul Ellering (and yes, I know that he was REALLY the Roadies actual manager, not just an on-air personality) don't get nearly enough credit these days for their roles. 

Yeah, Mitchell was a bit over-the-top for my tastes, but the dude had a pretty tough road to travel and by and large did quite well whenever given the chance.