The Unholy Dragon Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 I really love Brock as a special attraction deal and while I don't think this year was diminishing returns per se, I do think the only match I'd call genuinely great was the Reigns (and Rollins) match at Mania. The Undertaker matches were really good but missing something to me. I might consider the Summerslam one great. I think the thing is that Brock as the Destroyer was best when people tried to find strategies to deal with that and work around it. Increasingly it feels like his matches are losing coherence and just turning into finisher kickout and/or no-selling, suplexes, F5. Or like the triple threat where it's rooted in an especially big bomb factoring him out for a while. Instead of feeling like Brock is a puzzle for great wrestlers to solve, he just feels like he has cheats on which is less fun. American Alpha hasn't had the same staging to shine, but every promo and match they have makes me dig them more and want more. The tag they had against Neville and Crowe was probably my favourite tag of last year and the one against Corbin and Rhyno also killed it. But they've also had a wealth of low key great matches on NXT. It's not so much down to quantity as consistency I guess. Mostly I just found that Brock's stuff frustrated me this year while AA constantly brought me joy when they hit my screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 I'm fine with the criticisms of Brock that Matt D has made and now others have suddenly started to agree with. I don't feel like Brock had a truly great year, and he no longer feels totally fresh. Matt, you've often compared Stan Hansen to a tool for another wrestler to use as he sees fit, and I think Brock is firmly in that stage of his career as well, although I think it's clear that he is a much harder tool for people to use and actually advance or get over with. I don't think anyone looks tougher in victory or defeat against Lesnar. They look lucky or decimated. That being said, Brock's year had some decent matches. The Fastlane match was fun. The squashes were fun. He made random promos on Raw seem like an event. The pull apart stuff was awesome. All that being said, I voted for Brock. Nothing American Alpha has done thus far has made me think they are anything but tag team Tyler Breeze; an act tailor made to get over on a specific show in front of a specific crowd. They've done that and should be commended, but when other factors are close to being equal, I think degree of difficulty has to factor in. Being over on the main roster is leaps and bounds more impressive to me than getting Full Sail to like you. That probably won't be enough for Brock moving forward, but it's enough when I find the other stuff for American Alpha a bit lacking. I've brought up Hansen once or twice in the last few days. I just haven't seen that narrative with Brock. How did Reigns try to fight him? How did Rollins? How did Cena? Harper? Rusev? Del Rio? Undertaker? The only place we really saw it was in how Ambrose and Reigns worked together. I think the suplexes are an issue, because while Hansen was unrelenting, he was unrelenting in a way that you could work hope spots into better. He'd guzzle an opponent and leave them gasping. Brock on the other hand, uses big bumps, bigger than anyone else on the roster, basically. It makes it much harder for his opponents to utilize any sort of strategy. He's a potential tool but one that's in the wrong place at the wrong time without the likes of Misawa, Kobashi, Kawada, and Taue to counter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 I honestly don't know who to vote for here. Brock's whole act has gone on auto-pilot, though. Even Heyman's checked out, the promo is the same every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehabilitated Rick Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 AA are the funnest tag team I've seen in forever, to their quirky promos to Gable out-wrestling fools to Jordan decimating everybody and having the best hot tag in the biz. They're still relatively raw and unpolished but they're getting better and better. Amazing chemistry. Plus I was at this show and experienced this, so yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 There is just something wrong with Heyman going for cheap pops by mention the name of the city, like he did at Roadblock. Vote AA they only bring things up to their level. Also the idea that it's unfair to compare NXT folk to the main roster is absurd, if it's not fair to compare NXT to main roster then we can't compare any one on the indies to WWE or any one on LU to anyone in any other promotion in the world. Just because the shows/crowds are different or smaller doesn't mean that we can't judge the wrestlers ability to perform infront of the crowds they perform in front of. We can't say while yeah Mastiff is fine on the indies but he might not be as over or as good on Raw so vote for ________, wrestling exists in different styles and promotions and venues and good wrestlers will excel in the environment they are put into, maybe AA is booked to their stregnths better than others and, yes, they are a newer team without a lot of tape available but that doesn't mean none of us can say, we think AA is much better at what they do and are asked to do than Brock is just because Brock does it on PPVs (while making all the other wrestlers on the roster look below him and unable to keep up, unless you are the Undertaker). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodear Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 Let's talk about Paul Heyman a second. Is it me or has he become a catchphrase machine that says nothing of note? He's become a another cog in the Lesnar machine of doing the same thing over and over again to diminishing returns. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikoBaltimore Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 Nothing American Alpha has done thus far has made me think they are anything but tag team Tyler Breeze; an act tailor made to get over on a specific show in front of a specific crowd. They've done that and should be commended, but when other factors are close to being equal, I think degree of difficulty has to factor in. Being over on the main roster is leaps and bounds more impressive to me than getting Full Sail to like you. Bravo. Just keep this on the clipboard for every "NXT vs major company star" matchup in this tournament. I really enjoy NXT but we're severely overrating NXT talents based on a small sample and under optimum conditions. It's like watching the Harlem Globetrotters trounce the Washington Generals and thinking they're the best team in basketball because of it. I get what you're saying, and before they went elsewhere you'd be absolutely right. But it's not exactly the case anymore. Not only do they travel but they go to large and small buildings alike. They've gone all over the US and even England. For crying out loud they sold out the Barclays Center and all those people were into damn near everything. So it's not fair to just use this standard response. As for the talent, I'd like to think that there's certain talent/matches that can get over regardless of where it is. With proper booking on the main roster it's not out of the realm of possibility that a Bayley/Sasha type match could work with a hot crowd. EDIT: Sublime beat me to this, but point stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSC Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 Nothing American Alpha has done thus far has made me think they are anything but tag team Tyler Breeze; an act tailor made to get over on a specific show in front of a specific crowd. They've done that and should be commended, but when other factors are close to being equal, I think degree of difficulty has to factor in. Being over on the main roster is leaps and bounds more impressive to me than getting Full Sail to like you. Bravo. Just keep this on the clipboard for every "NXT vs major company star" matchup in this tournament. I really enjoy NXT but we're severely overrating NXT talents based on a small sample and under optimum conditions. It's like watching the Harlem Globetrotters trounce the Washington Generals and thinking they're the best team in basketball because of it. That argument kind of falls apart when NXT talent go out and have the best match on a show like Roadblock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 I'm fine with the criticisms of Brock that Matt D has made and now others have suddenly started to agree with. I don't feel like Brock had a truly great year, and he no longer feels totally fresh. Matt, you've often compared Stan Hansen to a tool for another wrestler to use as he sees fit, and I think Brock is firmly in that stage of his career as well, although I think it's clear that he is a much harder tool for people to use and actually advance or get over with. I don't think anyone looks tougher in victory or defeat against Lesnar. They look lucky or decimated. That being said, Brock's year had some decent matches. The Fastlane match was fun. The squashes were fun. He made random promos on Raw seem like an event. The pull apart stuff was awesome. All that being said, I voted for Brock. Nothing American Alpha has done thus far has made me think they are anything but tag team Tyler Breeze; an act tailor made to get over on a specific show in front of a specific crowd. They've done that and should be commended, but when other factors are close to being equal, I think degree of difficulty has to factor in. Being over on the main roster is leaps and bounds more impressive to me than getting Full Sail to like you. That probably won't be enough for Brock moving forward, but it's enough when I find the other stuff for American Alpha a bit lacking. I've brought up Hansen once or twice in the last few days. I just haven't seen that narrative with Brock. How did Reigns try to fight him? How did Rollins? How did Cena? Harper? Rusev? Del Rio? Undertaker? The only place we really saw it was in how Ambrose and Reigns worked together. I think the suplexes are an issue, because while Hansen was unrelenting, he was unrelenting in a way that you could work hope spots into better. He'd guzzle an opponent and leave them gasping. Brock on the other hand, uses big bumps, bigger than anyone else on the roster, basically. It makes it much harder for his opponents to utilize any sort of strategy. He's a potential tool but one that's in the wrong place at the wrong time without the likes of Misawa, Kobashi, Kawada, and Taue to counter. Sticking with Hansen, the thing I find most appealing about Stan was that he was chaos personified. I never knew what he was going to do, just impossible to predict what was going to happen next. His movements and body language reinforced this wildness and recklessness. The biggest problem with Brock is that he's entirely predictable and that's not something he should be. Ever. Could you clarify what you mean by tool in this context? I certainly do agree with the argument that success in NXT is being overstated on here. I'm voting AA more out of spite for what Brock has become than how good Gable and Jordan have been. And they have been good and their goofy interviews are nice but they're going to need to evolve their characters if they want to stand a chance of making it on Raw. I'm confident they can do that though. A lengthy championship run should help them round out their personas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Sugar Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 Let's talk about Paul Heyman a second. Is it me or has he become a catchphrase machine that says nothing of note? He's become a another cog in the Lesnar machine of doing the same thing over and over again to diminishing returns. On RAW from Feb. 1, when Reigns and Ambrose are battling New Day, Heyman is actively bad on guest commentary and distracted from a really good tag match that had outstanding outside interference from Xavier Woods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie M. Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 They could actually do an amazing turn for Brock after Mania where Heyman shuts down Suplex City. It almost feels like Heyman has been going intentionally overboard with the cheap pops. Like how Jericho was setting himself up for a heel turn when he came back a few months ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristobal Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 I think Heyman's bored with the current schtick, but they pay him enough to keep coming back, and even half-assing it he's still one of the better promos in the company. Which is all the more impressive for Brock as he's continued to be the most special and over act in the company with his hype man phoning it in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Sugar Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 I don't know why, in order to get Reigns over, they don't do the same angle they pulled when Heyman turned on Brock and sided with Big Show: you have Heyman go out there and proclaim Reigns is the future and half the crowd will go nuclear with hate and the other half just might start believing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eivion Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I love Jordan/Gable, but Brock wins this one for me if only for the Reigns match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSmUgly Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I liked American Alpha vs. Corbin and Rhyno more than I liked Brock vs. Reigns, which I know is safely a fringe opinion. The former had my favorite finishing run of any WWE-affiliated match that I saw last year. I might have been really influenced by the crowd heat for the tag match, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I liked American Alpha vs. Corbin and Rhyno more than I liked Brock vs. Reigns, which I know is safely a fringe opinion. The former had my favorite finishing run of any WWE-affiliated match that I saw last year. I might have been really influenced by the crowd heat for the tag match, though. No, I agree. I remember watching that match, being blown away, and most of the talk focusing on the finals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Brock hasn't really had a storyline for Heyman to tell since the Taker feud. I think that's the issue there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsey Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I waited...I thought...I voted Brock. The Alpha are going to be there soon but I need to see more. Yes, Brock is wearing out the Suplex City thing but we also know that's what the WWE does. "Fandangoing" anyone? Brock is Monster Heel 2.0 and I enjoy that, shitty booking be damned. We, as a group, sure as hell have had to make our picks AROUND the booking this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoeCristyV.1.6 Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Brock had that Wyatt Storyline at the Rumble...what the hell was that? There was NO follow up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted March 16, 2016 Author Share Posted March 16, 2016 Brock had that Wyatt Storyline at the Rumble...what the hell was that? There was NO follow up... It was SUPPOSED to be at Roadblock but Bray's fucked up back didn't allow that to happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoeCristyV.1.6 Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 It should have been Prawn Strongman all along though! If THAT match happened I would have voted Lesnar hands down! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsey Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 It should have been Prawn Strongman all along though! If THAT match happened I would have voted Lesnar hands down! Watching Brock TEACH HIM TO SELL in the Rumble was pretty entertaining. I almost forgot about that. I feel even better about my vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig H Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 The more this discussion has gone on, the more I remember some awesome things Brock has done. If I had a 2nd chance at voting, I would lean towards Brock. I was probably blinded by how much I love the hot tag to JJ and him being a Hoosier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I like Gable and Jordan and generally agree with a lot of Matt's criticism BUT Lesnar destroying everything at the post-Wrestlemania Raw and the Undertaker pull apart brawl were the best WWE segment of the year and the Reigns match may have been the best WWE match so. He wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 This is the best reason to vote for Brock. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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