DANIEL BRYAN DUMPSTER FIRE THREAD

[Johnny Sorrow]

 

Between Bryan and Nigel's concussion issues, I think we're also learning just how stupid and reckless the 2000s indy style was. Sadly, it looks like the new generation of indy talent didn't learn from that 

I guarantee you that only speaks to better diagnostics. The 80s and 90s don't have a stellar track record for wrestler health either.

 

Sure, but not as a result of a style for the most part. That's roids and pills.

[SirSmUgly]

Well, I have no interest in seeing DB wrestle again after that ESPN interview. Go home and be a family man, Bryan.

 

Look, I know it's the Full Sail mutants who accepted this style with applause, but the women of NXT have shown that you can get over a match working holds. This company can get over whatever style they want. They need to start doing their own WoS tribute and cut down on the reckless shit, dangerous dives, dangerous gimmick matches that are overused and have little return on the damage they cause, etc. They won't cut these guys' and gals's schedules down to 170-180 dates a year like they should, so the least they can do is enforce a new house style that focuses on limb work and brawls over this indy-lite shit that is killing guys. It's not like their product is hot anyway, so who cares if you turn off fans while establishing an easier style to work? The core will stick around anyway. 

 

It might also help if some of the wrestlers stopped with the stuff like Crossfit. I have read enough about Crossfit and how it damages ligaments, tendons, etc. to guess that Rollins probably destroyed his leg because of it. They should put down some edicts about what workouts their talent is allowed to do. 

 

And they should not have these guys working so many dates, but again, no chance of that. 

[Patrick B.]

I'll auto-fill the "we told you so"s from the expected people, since that's how people are.

[Go2Sleep]

Sure, but not as a result of a style for the most part. That's roids and pills.

 

I'd be willing to bet they'd all fair poorly in modern concussion/post-mortem CTE testing as well.

 

I mean Bret had to retire from a concussion in 2000, so you know he had to have a lot before then.

[Elsalvajeloco]

Between Bryan and Nigel's concussion issues, I think we're also learning just how stupid and reckless the 2000s indy style was. Sadly, it looks like the new generation of indy talent didn't learn from that

I guarantee you that only speaks to better diagnostics. The 80s and 90s don't have a stellar track record for wrestler health either.

Sure, but not as a result of a style for the most part. That's roids and pills.

Sure, but not as a result of a style for the most part. That's roids and pills.

I'd be willing to bet they'd all fair poorly in modern concussion/post-mortem CTE testing as well.

I mean Bret had to retire from a concussion in 2000, so you know he had to have a lot before then.

Yeah, that would be disastrous for wrestling to put it simply.

People weren't looking for it. If you were able at look at the brains of a lot of those people that died from "roids and pills", that information would be damning for professional wrestling. Basically, it would be the reason for class action lawsuits against the WWE...that happen to be going on right now as a matter of fact.

If you look at the small sample size (Benoit and Test along with what you already know about Chris Kanyon and Mike Awesome), the evidence is already crushing without even looking at the people who are still alive. You're trying to tell me that Axl Rotten's brain under scrutiny wouldn't be terrifying? You can't pinpoint a promotion, style, or time period and say that's when this one thing became an issue. That ignores all entire crux of the argument.

I was listening to the Observer Raw recap show and was a bit shocked that Dave didn't bring up the fact (in relation to the Yes! chant) that Diego Sanchez is going to be perhaps one of MMA's first cautionary tales. They were talking about Condit never being knocked out. Diego hasn't ever been knocked out that I could remember, and he was slurring his words going back to like 2013. There is plenty of video evidence of that. This guy still has a job fighting for the UFC. With Kevin Iole posting recently about the UFC's financial involvement with the Cleveland Clinic Ruvo Center, it gives me a sense the UFC is preparing for an impending shitstorm themselves in the near future. They're just getting out in front of it.

[Big Fresh]

[piranesi]

That guy better start calling himself Dr. Shelbee or Vince is going to sue the shit out of him.

[Big Fresh]

Hiding concussion seizures? Come on, Bryan. I love you. And I know you wanted to get back to wrestle. But how can someone as smart as you think that's a good idea?

[Elsalvajeloco]

Hiding concussion seizures? Come on, Bryan. I love you. And I know you wanted to get back to wrestle. But how can someone as smart as you think that's a good idea?

 

Because it has nothing to do with intelligence. Being a pro athlete allows you to rationalize anything whether it jeopardizes your health or not. There are people who lose entire stretches of time who are willing to go right back into a sporting event. As much you wanted him to come back, he wanted to come back way more than that.

[TheVileOne]

I agree with ElSal that trying to pinpoint all this on the 2000s indy style is silly.  

 

Keep in mind 15 years ago, no one was talking about or in fear of concussions like we are now.  I'm not saying that makes it OK, just that none of us really knew or had any idea.  

 

I think the biggest problem is the hectic schedule.  The roster is on the road so much, it's not just the work they are doing 300 days out of the year, but the constant travel as well.  The constant travel and lack of home recuperation can't be great for their bodies either.  Seems like the roster could use a week off to let their bodies repair themselves.

[Phantom Lord]

I mean if you read Bret's book he talks about the weeks after he got the first concussion from Goldberg and the lesser but still pretty bad concussion from a trash can shot from Terry Funk. He knew he couldn't wrestle, but he still had to do the shows so he just figured he'd gut it out so he was taking Advil for like two weeks straight. By the time he finally got to see his doctor like two weeks later his doctor asked him if he was crazy because all that advil was gonna eat a hole right through his stomach.During all those shows he was still taking a chokeslam (all be it a light one...if there is such a thing) from Sid.

 

My eariler point about less is more is a theory from Dee Snider of Twisted Sister. He's said in an interview the reason they don't over saturate themselves in the market and play every two bit festival or show like every other 80's band is because if they did it would water down their brand. Because selectively play only specific shows (big shows in Europe, mid sized theaters here in the states), they pull in huge pay days accordingly.

 

I think the WWE's way too over saturated. I mean they have been for years. They have how many hours of television a week? They don't need to run as many shows as they do at least here in the states. It's one thing to run the international shows, but they could easily cut the house shows here in America. It would suck for a lot of those guys who don't get on tv, but what would they rather have? 300 days on the road where they're making next to nothing and having to spend half of that on travel or less time on the road with a chance to recover more because like it's been said. The grind does more to destroy a wrestler than anything else.

[StretchMediatedHypertrophy]

I remember chatting with Spud (He wasn't a Rockstar yet) over a decade ago about his first match with Samoa Joe (IPW:UK Return of the Dragon); he got a concussion within 30 seconds and couldn't remember the match - they were in a Round-Robin with Martin Stone (Danny Burch), so Spud wrestled again within 2 hours. Hearing this did make me go 'er.....bloody hell'. Joe has learnt to loosen up a bit I am sure, and Spud eventually realised he should do heeling and comedy over recklessly killing himself for our entertainment - but errrrr bloody hell.

[BurningBeard]

There's an argument to be made that little-to-no house shows = wrestlers don't get to work as often = don't know how to listen to a crowd = crappy in-ring product and no one making a connection

[MonteCarl]

Bringing back squash/jobber matches on RAW and SD would go a long way and be beneficial in several areas, too. Firstly, the guys wouldn't be taking as many bumps, so it would be way better on their bodies.

 

Secondly, why do we keep getting Owens/Ziggler 15 minute hard hitting matches every week? That match has been run in to the ground and means nothing now. The match those two had on RAW this week would've been a blow away match 5-6 years ago, but that style happens all too often now. Put Owens in with a local job guy and Owens beats him up and gets over his rough/methodical style. Ziggler gets a match with a job guy and gets over his super kick. Then, when they face each other on PPV and have that 15 minute match, it actually stands out more, it means something, and people are more invested in the match.

 

I know the "marquee matches" were a necessity in the Monday Night War era, but that's way over now. Let's get back to basics. Hopefully WWE starts seeing their guys dropping left and right from injury and take some steps to re-educate everybody, similar to what happened after several drug/steroid related deaths leading up to Eddie's death that ultimately made them finally take a hard look at what these guys were doing to themselves. Perhaps Bryan's situation can be used in the same way that Eddie's death was to help everybody and open some eyes in the company and some changes can be made from within.

[The Z]

They can still do 300 shows a year. Just give everyone six weeks or so off every year at different points of time.

The roster is large enough, that nobody would even notice a handful of guys missing at any given moment.

[Dog]

 

Hiding concussion seizures? Come on, Bryan. I love you. And I know you wanted to get back to wrestle. But how can someone as smart as you think that's a good idea?

 

Because it has nothing to do with intelligence. Being a pro athlete human being allows you to rationalize anything whether it jeopardizes your health or not.

 

 

We all do it.

[The Natural]

 

Quality find. Dr. Shelby really contributed to Team Hell No.

[Patrick B.]

This sort of thing really makes a person question his wrestling fandom.  I realize it's just a product of my own stupid hangups, but sometimes reality hits you in the face when you see how these guys trash their long-term health for entertainment's sake.

[AxB]

They can still do 300 shows a year. Just give everyone six weeks or so off every year at different points of time.

The roster is large enough, that nobody would even notice a handful of guys missing at any given moment.

 

TNA actually did that for a few years and nobody really noticed. It was great though, sometimes Mr Anderson's off-cycle would last for ages.

[AxB]

This sort of thing really makes a person question his wrestling fandom.  I realize it's just a product of my own stupid hangups, but sometimes reality hits you in the face when you see how these guys trash their long-term health for entertainment's sake.

 

Entertainment's sake, or short-time financial gain?

[Spritenaut 32]

Bringing back squash/jobber matches on RAW and SD would go a long way and be beneficial in several areas, too. Firstly, the guys wouldn't be taking as many bumps, so it would be way better on their bodies.

 

Secondly, why do we keep getting Owens/Ziggler 15 minute hard hitting matches every week? That match has been run in to the ground and means nothing now. The match those two had on RAW this week would've been a blow away match 5-6 years ago, but that style happens all too often now. Put Owens in with a local job guy and Owens beats him up and gets over his rough/methodical style. Ziggler gets a match with a job guy and gets over his super kick. Then, when they face each other on PPV and have that 15 minute match, it actually stands out more, it means something, and people are more invested in the match.

 

I know the "marquee matches" were a necessity in the Monday Night War era, but that's way over now. Let's get back to basics. Hopefully WWE starts seeing their guys dropping left and right from injury and take some steps to re-educate everybody, similar to what happened after several drug/steroid related deaths leading up to Eddie's death that ultimately made them finally take a hard look at what these guys were doing to themselves. Perhaps Bryan's situation can be used in the same way that Eddie's death was to help everybody and open some eyes in the company and some changes can be made from within.

 

I agree in theory, but I'd guess tv ratings would be even lower if the shows start featuring a lot of squash matches.  Same problem with house shows.  Someone suggested working more comedy matches at house shows, to save wear and tear on the guys.  House shows are treated as meaningless, as is (if it doesn't happen on PPV or tv, it's not canon, apparently).  I'm not sure you would get appreciably lower crowds with comedy matches, but it's not something I'd ever pay for, personally.

[RIPPA]

They can still do 300 shows a year. Just give everyone six weeks or so off every year at different points of time.

The roster is large enough, that nobody would even notice a handful of guys missing at any given moment.

 

Well people have been talking about this for years.

 

But the "issue" (I use my quotes since I don't think it actually is an issue but I know some folks will) is you will have folks bitching about going to a show and not getting to see certain stars.

 

You already see it with the split NXT shows (of course the WWE brings that on themselves by not even trying to advertise a card)

[Patrick B.]

 

This sort of thing really makes a person question his wrestling fandom.  I realize it's just a product of my own stupid hangups, but sometimes reality hits you in the face when you see how these guys trash their long-term health for entertainment's sake.

 

Entertainment's sake, or short-time financial gain?

 

 

Either, really.

[Pete]

They can still do 300 shows a year. Just give everyone six weeks or so off every year at different points of time.

The roster is large enough, that nobody would even notice a handful of guys missing at any given moment.

 

No reason they can't do a modified Japanese schedule where everyone goes three weeks on, two weeks off, lather rinse repeat. That way they can do the 300 shows a year just by cycling dudes on/off the crew depending on their personal schedule.

[BurningBeard]

The 'logical' version of this to me would be WWE being on one channel and cycling their content - so there'd be a brand split again and you'd get three months of RAW then three months of Smackdown then repeat. Treat the quarterly programming as 'seasons' with the PPV's as payoffs for storylines, Wrestlemania is used as a supercard of Raw V Smackdown talent. That would keep things fresh and build excitement up to me.

 

That's off the top of my head without factoring in finer details.