AEW TV - 10/25 - 10/31/2023 - A Lethal Lottery

[AxB]

6 hours ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

I enjoyed MJF/Omega, and I say that as someone who doesn't generally enjoy what they bring to the table individually.

In the broader picture though, I don't think I can give them the benefit of the doubt to say that this feels like part of, or consistent to the bigger story being told for either guy, it just feels like putting out the biggest match they can think of because they want to compete with WWE.

A schmozz finish would have been fine here, as you have so many different parts coming together that wouldn't otherwise, and you're not sure as a viewer how that will play out.

"Oh fuck, Wardlow hasn't made good on his promise yet, you know it's going to be good when he finally does. Nope, he's standing around watching a monitor in the back like a dork".

"Can Joe be trusted here? What if he's the one that sticks to his word when Cole fucks him over. Nope watching a monitor".

"Is there a way they can add anything more to an otherwise dead in the water Omega/Callis Family feud? Nope, Callis fucks him over again and gets all the heat, and we're going to continue with this generation's Jimmy Valiant/Paul Jones Army feud."

"Good opportunity for the Bang Bang Gang to get heat on MJF, or build to the big 4 on 4 match. Nope, nothing".

"How will Roddy and co play into this match? Nope, nothing".

I feel like they not only shafted about 10 different guys of some much needed character development, and possibly robbed themselves of a PPV main event rematch down the track, in order to try and pop a rating in a one sided ratings war, and continue to pretend that exclusively clean finishes are the be all and end all here. 

I prefer it when the World title match has a clean, decisive finish without any shenanigans. Without any "there's an asterisk next to this victory because he had a helping hand from this interference or that interference". I remember when that was the thing that everyone hated about the Spoatz Ennertainmen style, that no match could ever end without some sort of ref bump, run in, distraction finish. When in WCW, any time anyone hit a finishing move, the fans would all turn their heads to the entranceway rather than count the pin. 

When a big match on a big show finishes in a Schmozz, the reaction of the fans used to be to chant Bullshit, and to say that they would be hesitant about attending the next show. The feeling that it wasn't the heel screwing the babyface out of a victory, but more the company screwing the fans out of a proper finish to the match. What happened? Why would a fan of wrestling be upset that a big match had a satisfactory ending? You demand to be dissatisfied! You want to HATE wrestling, not enjoy it?

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

I see your point, and I agree that the need to have an undecisive finish every. single. week during the Monday Night Wars was counterproductive and trained its audience to hatewatch the product. 

I think in this instance, it had the opportunity to further develop multiple ongoing stories and add intrigue to tuning in next week by having the locker room empty, and at the same time, there was better potential for MJF beating Omega clean(ish) to mean a lot more on PPV rather than a Saturday afternoon show thrown together with minimal build to try and compete with WWE, especially when Omega has already dropped so many falls this year. 

Wardlow coming out and beating down MJF only to be stopped by Samoa Joe, then Roderick Strong running out and attacking Joe, Bullet Club picking their spots and attacking MJF and Omega, only to be run off by The Acclaimed. Maybe I just really liked the ECW locker room clearing brawls that bled into one thing after another a lot..

 

[The Natural]

The finish to a match is the most important thing as you've invested the time to the finish and it needs to deliver. Sometimes a bad finish taints what preceded it while there are times you can overlook that as the wrestlers are at the whims of the bookers. Shawn Michaels vs. Mankind at In Your House 10: Mind Games is still a ***** match to me even with the DQ finish. Just a shame it didn't end on the Sweet Chin Music assisted chairs, what a finish that was.

[For Great Justice]

I guess I’m the opposite on the last page, as I prefer announcers that are more passionate than analytical. 

We should probably cal this the Gus Johnson Test

(and I’m on Team Gus)

[Gorman]

14 hours ago, Technico Support said:

Calling actual wrestling moves means something.  

I agree wholeheartedly. Every play-by-play announcer should know the name of every move AND every individual wrestler's moves. It's right there in the name of the job.

Then the question is, does my boss want me to say all of the names of the moves? With the exception of WWE, the answer should be yes.

I don't think you need to say the name of every move if there are five moves in five seconds, because then you sound like an auctioneer. Maybe just mention the last move in that sequence.

Finally, if you know all of the moves, there's a way to avoid being a show-off about it. Like when someone does a big lucha dive, let the initial "WHOA!" sink in, and then when everyone is getting up, you could say it was a somersault plancha.

 

[odessasteps]

Are Lance and Dave the outliers on this topic, beloved announcers who did not have an encyclopedic knowledge of Move Names? 

[Curt McGirt]

6 hours ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

I see your point, and I agree that the need to have an undecisive finish every. single. week during the Monday Night Wars was counterproductive and trained its audience to hatewatch the product. 

See also: the Dusty Finish. Can't remember where I read it but apparently by the end of his run Big Dust was overusing it and burning people out in the territory. 

[Shartnado]

There was so much good stuff this and last week, but I just have to say that Takeshita vs Fletcher and MJF vs Omega were both F'n nuts! But there was so much other stuff being awesome as well!

Will MJF strike a deal with Kenny, Joe and Wardlow for this Wednesday? Help me destroy these douches and you all get a shot at the title sometime soon?

[Johnny Sorrow]

4 hours ago, odessasteps said:

Are Lance and Dave the outliers on this topic, beloved announcers who did not have an encyclopedic knowledge of Move Names? 

They're the best, but Ventura/ McMahon, Ventura/ Monsoon, Monsoon/ Heenan, and Ross/ Hayes all were great and weren't dropping tons of move names. 

[Octopus]

For me it’s the week to week aspect of what’s trying to be done. I really like the idea of MJF having so many enemies going after him as he’s trying to become a better person. I’m not big on the belt stealing angle, but at least it’s something  that has Jay White and Juice involved. I also like the idea that Kenny can’t win big without Don Callis as the heart of their feud. The Jericho insertion was awkward at first but I do feel we can have a separate feud where one is with Takeshita or Ospreay and the other is with Hobbs being a badass. I also like the idea of MJF facing Omega to surpass the length of the reign. To nitpick, I don’t really like doing that when Omega was struggling to get wins and MJF doesn’t physically have the belt. I feel the Fletcher match a week ago was just used to give Onega a pre-title match win, but that goes against the narrative that he can’t win without Don. I’m typing all this at work, so maybe I’m remembering all of this wrong. I feel like things are so close but barely miss the bucket.

Maybe they had a good plan and maybe rushed the Omega match when they realized record was coming up? the matches are mostly fun, so I’m still happy with the product. But this was the type of stuff that scared me away from investing time into the WWE. Again, the matches are good though, so it is what it is.

Ramble.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

8 hours ago, Gorman said:

Finally, if you know all of the moves, there's a way to avoid being a show-off about it. Like when someone does a big lucha dive, let the initial "WHOA!" sink in, and then when everyone is getting up, you could say it was a somersault plancha.

 

This. Knowing the name of the move is nice and all, but knowing all the names is meaningless if there's no connection to the actual impact of the move. A lot of announcers try to do in the moment narration when the best thing any announcer can do, in my opinion, is let a moment breathe, then recap what the viewer just saw. Let them absorb the moment, then remind them that yeah, what you saw just happened.

[Ramo2653]

On 10/29/2023 at 6:09 AM, BrianS81177 said:

How has nobody mentioned Shida's Ada Wong dress? Am I the only Resident Evil nerd around here?

My first thought was Anna from Tekken so I looked it up and there was a side by side image of Anna and Ada which made me go "oh duh"

As far as announcing, a blend of calling moves and their impact is best. In theory you'd have one announcer for both. Just make Excalibur stop calling moves that stop flying attacks "anti-air" I play fighting games and that's the nerdiest shit ever.

[Shartnado]

On 10/26/2023 at 8:36 PM, Technico Support said:

I have no faith in TK booking this.  He beat both members of The Righteous single-handedly already.  That kind of thing kills your tag teams dead.

I could see this going two ways, neither which would involve MJF going at it alone against The Gunns:

1) Roddy will guilt trip Adam into letting him defend the titles on his behalf with MJF. Then he either surprisingly comes through, fails earnestly or turns on MJF.

2) Samoa Joe continues to offer MJF protection in exchange for the rematch for the title and becomes Adam's substitute. Now Joe would obviously not turn on MJF, until the second the rematch is secured, so this would probably mean MJF and Joe retaining.

[AxB]

Anti-Air is a special skill in Fight Forever. It's very annoying, when you're playing as Darby and you try to Coffin Drop someone who gets up and German Suplexes you out of the sky.

[Gorman]

1 hour ago, Ramo2653 said:

My first thought was Anna from Tekken so I looked it up and there was a side by side image of Anna and Ada which made me go "oh duh"

As far as announcing, a blend of calling moves and their impact is best. In theory you'd have one announcer for both. Just make Excalibur stop calling moves that stop flying attacks "anti-air" I play fighting games and that's the nerdiest shit ever.

I like "defensive dropkick" when it's a dropkick stopping the attack.

[JLowe]

Lots of good wrestling on Collision. That MJF-Omega match was wild! I remember back when MJF would wrestle maybe every 6 weeks and I really didn’t even know if he was a good wrestler or just an obnoxious talker. Now he’s wrestling on the regular and showing he’s one of the best in the ring and expanded his character work enormously. So I fully own up to that.

Can’t believe Danielson was legit injured that badly. Somehow I don’t think Claudio is going to get to best either OC or Okada.

[ExcellenceofAirPollution]

On 10/29/2023 at 6:00 PM, porksweats said:

Just caught up on Rampage/Collision, alot of fun stuff but there was a moment in the Omega/MJF match that JR said it was for the AWA World Heavyweight championship and it got me thinking

 

What would be the best hypothetical intergenerational and promotional Champ vs Champ match be?

My money would be Omega vs Jumbo.

I heard that too!! 

It wouldn't be the best but I'd pay to see Larry Zbyszko and MJF attempt to out stall each other broadway

[ExcellenceofAirPollution]

1 hour ago, JLowe said:

Lots of good wrestling on Collision. That MJF-Omega match was wild! I remember back when MJF would wrestle maybe every 6 weeks and I really didn’t even know if he was a good wrestler or just an obnoxious talker. Now he’s wrestling on the regular and showing he’s one of the best in the ring and expanded his character work enormously. So I fully own up to that.

Can’t believe Danielson was legit injured that badly. Somehow I don’t think Claudio is going to get to best either OC or Okada.

WO/F4W now says Bryan's orbital bone was broken against Andrade on 10/21    think I'm calling shenanigans on that one....

My expectations for big Kenny singles matches are absurdly high so I was kind of disappointed by that match.  It was good but missing something and I definitely felt like they could do a lot better in a rematch.  A lot of it felt a little too scripted and choreographed, too pretty.  There's something detached about MJF's work that kind of takes me out of matches.  It feels more like he's checking the boxes in his performance than actually being in it if that makes sense.  Not going through the motions because he's working his ass off, but kinda that.  All that said, I should probably rewatch it to judge it more fairly, it's not like I didn't like it.

I'm also in the camp that would have preferred a non-finish.  30 minute time limit draw, match is thrown out due to tons of interference, take your pick.  I wouldn't have booked it here in the first place and you can still do a rematch (they gave Kenny a bit of an out with Callis coming out when he had him up for the 1WA), maybe it doesn't matter

[Zakk_Sabbath]

On 10/29/2023 at 9:38 PM, Curt McGirt said:

Here's another thing you can glean from reading the list of what went down on Collision: It reads like a two-hour Rampage. And that's exactly what it felt like.

Catching up after finally watching, and though I really dug MJF/Omega, I have to agree. I'm kinda... not all that mad we didn't make it. It feels shitty to say as an AEW nut, but this really was a one-match card. It happens - I'll keep my beer money for World's End

[JLowe]

10 hours ago, ExcellenceofAirPollution said:

I'm also in the camp that would have preferred a non-finish.  30 minute time limit draw, match is thrown out due to tons of interference, take your pick.  I wouldn't have booked it here in the first place and you can still do a rematch (they gave Kenny a bit of an out with Callis coming out when he had him up for the 1WA), maybe it doesn't matter

I do agree with all of this. Time limit draw would have been the way to go, then you can do another iron man. But I guess once they started the angle of the "longest belt holder" they had to have the match, and something somewhat conclusive.

[Matt D]

They could have done a deal where at the 25 minute mark, Callis' people or BCG (or some combo) intervene and they fight them off together before going after each other again, but they lost 2-3 minutes in there and it indirectly leads to the draw. In a draw situation, given what happened at All In, you figure that MJF would want the extra time though. Maybe the heels double back then and put Omega in a position where he can't get the extra time? Seems a little dodgy.

[Log]

10 hours ago, ExcellenceofAirPollution said:

There's something detached about MJF's work that kind of takes me out of matches.  It feels more like he's checking the boxes in his performance than actually being in it if that makes sense.  Not going through the motions because he's working his ass off, but kinda that.  All that said, I should probably rewatch it to judge it more fairly, it's not like I didn't like it.

That's the exact feeling I had watching this match. It was like they were ticking the boxes for all the things a "great match" needs. Big dive, check. Double knockout spot, check. Pinfall reversal sequence, check. Interference that looks like it'll end the match, but is thwarted, check. Dangerous apron move, check. Etc, etc.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

11 minutes ago, Log said:

That's the exact feeling I had watching this match. It was like they were ticking the boxes for all the things a "great match" needs. Big dive, check. Double knockout spot, check. Pinfall reversal sequence, check. Interference that looks like it'll end the match, but is thwarted, check. Dangerous apron move, check. Etc, etc.

I dont disagree with you or @ExcellenceofAirPollution whatsoever on your interpretations, but I would argue that this sort of 'box-checking' match is kind of exactly what you would want out of a first-time encounter, on free TV, on a night with stiff competition from college ball, UFC FN, and new COPS episodes (ok, maybe it's just me psyched about that last one).

It lets everyone watching get a taste of what they can do fogether to whet our appetite for a big PPV encounter in the future, it gives them as performers a chance to touch a little before that hypothetical PPV match (since it appears the house show experiment is on ice for now) - (Edit: I forgot maybe the most important part: furthering the Callis Family and Bullet Club issues) -  Again, I totally see what you guys mean! I just think in this particular situation it's appropriate/warranted.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Zakk_Sabbath

[ExcellenceofAirPollution]

With me at least I think there's also an element of MJF being so good, a deceptively great athlete and making everything look so easy that it makes it seem more like a performance than a struggle.  It's hard to explain.  Then I have to remind myself that he's like 27 and still a work in progress....

[Matt D]

I was very high on the MJF vs Righteous match because it felt like it was him leading the crowd instead of being led by all the boxes he felt like he was supposed to check (and therefore letting the crowd or their expectations lead him).