AEW - AUGUST 2023

[Eivion]

1 hour ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

I like men's wrestling. I like women's wrestling. I like tag team wrestling. I like brawls and spot fests and technical matches. I think wrestling is at it's best when you have the full menu of creativity available to you. So I have always personally been against a women's only show for the same reason I'd be against a tag matches only show.

Are you against pure male and female promotions then? I don't really think having an all female show compares realistically to an all tag show. 

1 hour ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Basically if you mix up the formula to the extent you aren't doing the same thing every week, the problem goes away. Fans aren't able to sit there and recognize a pattern for 200 weeks straight where 1/6 matches is a women's match and that women's match more often than not is match 5 out of 6. I have no earthly idea how many women's matches WWE has in a week. And I bet neither do they. Which is why I think you hear about this being an AEW thing and WWE doesn't really get the same flack.

WWE actually does have something of a formula, particularly since HHH took over creative. They just aren't slaves to it, especially NXT. I think there is typically a minimum of 2 women's matches each week along with a decent amount of segments building the rest of the roster up. If we only count the main tv shows I would guess the number is anywhere between 4-7 each week. Probably goes up another 3-4 with the stuff few watch like Level Up and Main Event. 

[AxB]

Isn't WWE just now on a run of not showcasing the women as much? I'm sure I some some statistic somewhere that in the last month or two, AEW had aired more minutes of women's wrestling than WWE had.

And they cut Becky vs Trish off the PPV tonight.

[Eivion]

25 minutes ago, AxB said:

Isn't WWE just now on a run of not showcasing the women as much? I'm sure I some some statistic somewhere that in the last month or two, AEW had aired more minutes of women's wrestling than WWE had.

And they cut Becky vs Trish off the PPV tonight.

Not really? They get showcased a lot. Its more a question of the quality of said showcase. I think NXT does generally well. Main roster is a bit more all over. 

Trish/Becky was cut/moved due to the sponsored battle royal and based off of comments from Zoey Stark make sure it got decent time. Presumably Theory/Santos suffered the same fate as I recall both matches were originally set for Summerslam.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Eivion

[Casey]

He’s probably thinking of the account that tracks in-ring time (for both men and women, and total combined)

RAW from 7/17 to 7/31 had 20 minutes of in-ring time for women, apparently. But what the tweet fails to mention is in that same time frame on Dynamite, they had probably 11 minutes of women’s wrestling.

[Go2Sleep]

AEW's biggest problem with the women's division is that when the company took off, WWE had 90%+ of women's wrestlers worth a damn that wanted to work in the US under contract because they had been pushing women's wrestling seriously for about 4 years at that point. The fact that AEW's women's division has improved to the point it has with quite a few fresh prospects on the horizon is an accomplishment in and of itself. They have also had a lot of bad luck with people getting hurt right when they got hot (Stat, Rosa, Hayter). Not being able to ink Mone was bad too, but that might have been unrealistic expectations from fans, I don't think we really know how much she was considering it.

That's not to say they couldn't have done a lot better with what they have, mind you. Opting for a second singles belt over tag belts was big miss, not just stylistically, but in terms of getting double the number of women on tv per segment. They built Jade up, then let her fizzle out. Earlier this year, we were seriously discussing the prospect of a women's blood and guts, and instead we got the same Outcasts match every week for months while the faces looked like idiots not forming even enough of an alliance for a regular trios blowoff. One thing they've done well is showcase women's hardcore wrestling in a way that even WWE hasn't, so missing B&G was a real letdown.

 

[Casey]

Saraya dealing with endometriosis probably put an end to the idea of a women’s Blood & Guts match at that time. Then Hayter being injured for longer than we knew about apparently, etc etc.

I would have loved it because I think, even if she’s been passed by the current crop of US mainstream women, Saraya could find a nice niche in hardcore stuff probably. And the whole Originals vs Outsiders thing, even though people hated it, I thought had a lot of legs and could have incorporated people like Taya, Rosa, Deeb, etc. on one side and others like Stat or Yuka or whoever on the other. Lots of room for multiple women to get air time in one story. But, alas..

[HarryArchieGus]

As the Women's Division continues to struggle it's interesting to hear the unyielding criticism for more. First, isn't public knowledge that WBD is who calls the shots on 1 match per show? This often becomes an AEW criticism that seems a bit out of their hands. As I find myself skimming most of what's made it to air lately in the Division, I'm pretty okay with the current 'formula'. I always wonder what match combos ppl are clamouring for to want to see more from the Division. I have a hard time seeing them. I hope the roster one day gets to a place where I see those potential matches and I too want more segments. It did seem like it was closing in on that a few months back. And I'm always all in on the idea of a full Women's show. The Youtube specials surrounding the Women's Tag Tournament indicated to me that it could be a lot of fun, and also free the division from the juxtaposition of talent level with the majority of the current roster. Not a problem for some, but for some it is. The absence of Hayter, Deeb, Riho, and even Tay feels pretty clear right now. I really like what Anna Jay is putting together lately, but her peak is still to come, and she should be allowed to get there at her own pace. I have little doubt that she isn't going to be really great at some point. Skye Blue's been good, but there's been so much of her. I'm not sure I need to see all her reps. On the otherhand, Willow is pretty clearly ready to shine, and Athena's been fucking fantastic on ROHTV (perhaps because they're not on WBD, there are lots more Women's bouts for those wanting). Getting more Athena ROH title defenses on AEWTV seems especially necessary now. Stat's good if a bit inconsistent. Very interested by this pairing off feud with Mercedes. And love Mercedes getting an underling. I like our Champion Shida, but if we're honest she's incredibly inconsistent. 80% of that title win bout was met with zero heat or reaction, and for fair reason. Some of Hikaru's strikes are so weak I find myself challenged to get back into the 'suspension' after. I suspect Toni will recapture the title, and I dearly hope so. Toni is so good, and so consistent. It feels a bit unfortunate that there's really so few dream matches left there with the healthy roster. Willow and Athena, maybe Stat? You'd want DMD to be that, but Britt's wrestling has been troubling to say the least. I think they made a small mistake not keeping Rebel with her. She's mostly still playing 'cool heel' as a babyface anyway. Regardless, Britt's drowning again as a babyface. Her character game is by far her best attribute and it's hampered right now as a babyface. I like the Outcasts as a group, but their cheat in front of the ref shit has been very challenging. Also, Ruby's a good hand, but she has a clear ceiling they don't seem to want to accept. Really hoping at some point for an influx of Japanese talent. And while we wait, can we get a lot more Emi Sakura? Jade's out and I can't say I miss her all that much. Her promo game is excellent, but her angles and feuds have been weak. Weaker than her wrestling. 'Baddie' Leila Grey is a lady to watch out for. She's vastly improved in a short period of time, and has a strong character game.

EDIT: forgot Billie Starks. She is dearly missed.

Edited August 8, 2023 by HarryArchieGus

[Curt McGirt]

It'll never happen, but it would be highly amusing if KAIRI pulled the wool over New York's eyes and signed with AEW. 

[Matt D]

18 minutes ago, HarryArchieGus said:

EDIT: forgot Billie Starks. She is dearly missed.

She's back on ROH this week and she's got the attention of a certain fallen goddess.

[twiztor]

2 hours ago, HarryArchieGus said:

As the Women's Division continues to struggle it's interesting to hear the unyielding criticism for more. First, isn't public knowledge that WBD is who calls the shots on 1 match per show? This often becomes an AEW criticism that seems a bit out of their hands. 

that is a very widely known (and mostly accepted rumor). i haven't heard anybody that would have actual knowledge mention it. If i have, please illuminate me.

the "one women's match" creates a rippling effect. You imply that the talent isn't at that level yet, but how do you expect them to GET to that level? wrestling one match a month ain't gonna lead to big improvements.

Here are the number of matches that each of the women's roster has had on AEW TV in 2023. [note that i don't have ROH data in front of me]:

Spoiler

Toni Storm (16 + 2 PPV)
Ruby Soho (14 + 1 PPV)
Taya Valkyrie (12 + 1 PPV)
Skye Blue (12)
Jade Cargill (11 + 2 PPV)
Willow Nightingale (10 + 1 PPV)
Britt Baker (10)
Anna Jay (7)
Jamie Hayter (6 + 2 PPV)
Kris Statlander (6 + 1 PPV)
Nyla Rose (6)
Hikaru Shida (6)
Saraya (5 + 1 PPV)
Riho (5)
Emi Sakura (4)
Marina Shafir (4)
Julia Hart (3)
Kiera Hogan (3)
Mercedes Martinez (3)
Leila Grey (2)
Red Velvet (2)
Athena (1 + 1 PPV)
Billie Starkz (1 + 1 PPV)
Bunny (1)

Abadon 0
Diamante 0
Leyla Hirsch 0
Madison Rayne 0
Penelope Ford 0
Serena Deeb 0
Tay Melo 0
Thunder Rosa 0
Yuka Sakazaki 0

i am aware that some of those zeros are due to injury or other. but how is someone like Kiera Hogan supposed to get over or improve with only 3 matches in 8 months? She's also not one of the selected few that get promo time. Anna Jay has wrestled an average of one match a month. seriously? Toni Storm is a veritable workhorse with 18 matches in 31 weeks- a number that seems average when compared to your standard men's midcarder [Jarrett at 14, Yuta at 16] 

i know this speaks to the larger issue of wrestlers disappearing for weeks at a time, but when the women are only allowed to have a total of 3 matches a week, it becomes especially glaring. 

[odessasteps]

Wouldn't it be better for a lot of their talent, men and women, to be working more shows, to increase their experience level? And not necessarily on TV?

Are they still doing house show loops that people aren't discussing as much anymore or did they just cut back on them? 

[StuntmanCrowley]

They really should have kept Elevation and Dark.  I miss them.

[JLowe]

22 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

Wouldn't it be better for a lot of their talent, men and women, to be working more shows, to increase their experience level? And not necessarily on TV?

Are they still doing house show loops that people aren't discussing as much anymore or did they just cut back on them? 

They stopped them AFAIK, think they decided the juice wasn't worth the squeeze. Especially with  live Saturday show now.

There are usually 3-4 womens matches on ROH, and many of the recent TV shows have had a womens match as a pre-show dark match.

ROH and the YouTube shows are, to me, evidence that the 1 womens match per TV show is a network thing and not a Tony K thing, but its just speculation and I know he isn't as active booking those shows.

[Godfrey]

The problem isn’t the talent, the women’s division needs a dedicated booker and like 10 Fit Finlays. As it is, TK forgets the Women’s tab on his spreadsheet and the talent tries to wrestle beyond their capabilities half the time which makes them look amateurish even when they aren’t and heightens the risk of injury

[Zakk_Sabbath]

Spoiler

 

On 8/4/2023 at 5:35 PM, Sparkleface said:

Any time I see a women's match referred to as a "girls match" or a "ladies match" it's an immediate dogwhistle that this person miiiiiight not want to see women on their rasslin' program.

Oh no! Gotta say im a little mortified because I say 'ladies' or 'ladies' match' all the time here, but strictly just to mix it up in whatever post/paragraph it is instead of typing 'women, woman, women's' 100 times - totally just a language thing. I won't do it again and I promise there was nothing sexist/misogynist about it!

On 8/4/2023 at 6:38 PM, Matt D said:

I wish we’d at least get fancams of those dark matches. 

Same - really hoping if/when there's a streaming deal in place we get a surprise drop of these from time to time. Maybe they air them in international markets?

On 8/4/2023 at 6:57 PM, Casey said:

Well at least LuFisto has united the women’s locker room, so good for her. Britt, Taya, Tay, Nyla, Renee, Madison Rayne and even Ruby have tweeted about all of this in the past few hours. Even MJF came to their defense.

Shit is wild.

That's my motherfucking World Champion

On 8/4/2023 at 7:01 PM, Dog said:

I don't know anything about SHIMMER, but Wrestlenomics says the viewership for the current incarnation of WOW is actually overwhelmingly female. Like, 70% or something. That shocked me.

I recently started watching this because I caught it on a local station on a random Sunday recently, and It's a pretty cool presentation overall - very paint by numbers, archetypical type gimmicks, but the matches aren't terrible, and they do a pretty good job with their recaps and pre-entrance introduction videos

On 8/4/2023 at 7:55 PM, Curt McGirt said:

Some people may think giving women their own show is a bone thrown or some kind of a plus or whatever, but it can also be viewed as divisionary shit that puts them in their own little ghetto away from the "head" talent. It sounds like a giant step backward to me. Instead, give them more matches, more time, more mains. 

Have to agree - it'd be like 205 Live all over. Immediate setup for failure

On 8/5/2023 at 4:03 PM, Sparkleface said:

Heck, do what WCW or Mid-South did and put your main event on first so the fans can be ensured they'll get all their main event, then you have standby matches that aren't announced, if "matches made that day" is "too Attitude era" for some, which it probably will be.

I think you're on to something with this, and it honestly may be why I often find Rampage to be the highlight of my AEW week

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

6 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

Oh no! Gotta say im a little mortified because I say 'ladies' or 'ladies' match' all the time here, but strictly just to mix it up in whatever post/paragraph it is instead of typing 'women, woman, women's' 100 times - totally just a language thing. I won't do it again and I promise there was nothing sexist/misogynist about it!

Think of it this way... men's matches are never called "gentlemen's matches", so why apply the opposite?

Heck, most of the time men's matches aren't even called "men's matches", they're just called "matches", since men are more often than not seen as the default and women are seen as needing a qualifier. Same with titles. They don't really fight over the AEW Men's World Title, do they?

The qualifier is already unnecessary in my opinion, but a lot of people adjust it to the more quaint and cutesy one to really hammer home the point of "hey, you don't belong here". Not all, but a lot.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

1 minute ago, Sparkleface said:

Think of it this way... men's matches are never called "gentlemen's matches", so why apply the opposite?

Heck, most of the time men's matches aren't even called "men's matches", they're just called "matches", since men are more often than not seen as the default and women are seen as needing a qualifier. Same with titles. They don't really fight over the AEW Men's World Title, do they?

The qualifier is already unnecessary in my opinion, but a lot of people adjust it to the more quaint and cutesy one to really hammer home the point of "hey, you don't belong here". Not all, but a lot.

Completely understandable, and all excellent points - I hopefully never used it in that sense, it was more of just like a shorthand: 'the tag match was good, loved the main event, and the ladies' trios was super good' or something like that - or like, 'shout out to Nyla and Skye Blue, both ladies killed it on Elevation the other night' or something - never, ever anything ill-intentioned, and I offer a legit apology to you or any other women here who saw it in one of my posts and rolled your eyes

Alternatively: I DO think calling the men's matches 'gentleman's matches' could have some serious legs..

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

7 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

Completely understandable, and all excellent points - I hopefully never used it in that sense, it was more of just like a shorthand: 'the tag match was good, loved the main event, and the ladies' trios was super good' or something like that - or like, 'shout out to Nyla and Skye Blue, both ladies killed it on Elevation the other night' or something - never, ever anything ill-intentioned, and I offer a legit apology to you or any other women here who saw it in one of my posts and rolled your eyes

Alternatively: I DO think calling the men's matches 'gentleman's matches' could have some serious legs..

I roll my eyes at everything, but I'm a dour pain in the ass.

[Casey]

Completely random here, but NJPW posted a video of Kingston meeting Kawada and that shit made me tear up, man.

Besides Old Man Muto circa 2000-2002, Kawada is my favorite Japanese (male) wrestler so I’m right there with Eddie. I’d be grinning like an idiot too.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Casey

[The Natural]

17 minutes ago, Casey said:

Completely random here, but NJPW posted a video of Kingston meeting Kawada and that shit made me tear up, man.

Besides Old Man Muto circa 2000-2002, Kawada is my favorite Japanese (male) wrestler so I’m right there with Eddie. I’d be grinning like an idiot too.

Here it is:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W9tXP2qib_A

[The Natural]

44 minutes ago, Casey said:

Completely random here, but NJPW posted a video of Kingston meeting Kawada and that shit made me tear up, man.

Besides Old Man Muto circa 2000-2002, Kawada is my favorite Japanese (male) wrestler so I’m right there with Eddie. I’d be grinning like an idiot too.

Favourite Japanese wrestler overall is Bull Nakano, right?

Mine is Kenta Kobashi then Kazuchika Okada.

[Casey]

17 minutes ago, The Natural said:

Favourite Japanese wrestler overall is Bull Nakano, right?

Mine is Kenta Kobashi then Kazuchika Okada.

Nakano is my favorite wrestler ever, period. Punk, Muto and Kawada are just competing for spots 2-4.

[zendragon]

[HarryArchieGus]

On 8/7/2023 at 4:14 PM, twiztor said:

that is a very widely known (and mostly accepted rumor). i haven't heard anybody that would have actual knowledge mention it. If i have, please illuminate me.

It's a fair challenge. Here's my reasons to accept the WBD MAY be indeed to blame 'rumour'. First, it has never been dispelled and been widely discussed for a long time now. It's reminiscent of how the Jay Briscoe ban was widely known, but not officially issued - at least during his life. Safe to say it is not the type of 'rule' WBD wants to be boldly on the record for. Two, any non-WBD AEW show generally has more than one Women's match. I'm speaking of Dark, Elevation and now Honor Club Weekly. That's to say, there's at least enough reason to give this Word worthy consideration when laying down 'who's to blame!?'

Quote

the "one women's match" creates a rippling effect. You imply that the talent isn't at that level yet, but how do you expect them to GET to that level? wrestling one match a month ain't gonna lead to big improvements.

Quote

...how is someone like Kiera Hogan supposed to get over or improve with only 3 matches in 8 months? She's also not one of the selected few that get promo time. Anna Jay has wrestled an average of one match a month. seriously? Toni Storm is a veritable workhorse with 18 matches in 31 weeks- a number that seems average when compared to your standard men's midcarder [Jarrett at 14, Yuta at 16] 

i know this speaks to the larger issue of wrestlers disappearing for weeks at a time, but when the women are only allowed to have a total of 3 matches a week, it becomes especially glaring. 

I completely agree that many, many Elite grapplers very badly require Reps. You'd be hard pressed to find many ppl that wouldn't agree: 'more needed reps for the greens.' Reps to me aren't so much television. They're away from the cameras where you can try things and make mistakes. I would love to know more about 'why so many of their green talent, in need of reps, aren't working local Indies etc.?' I suspect it's more of a management call. 

Edited August 8, 2023 by HarryArchieGus

[sabremike]

22 hours ago, StuntmanCrowley said:

They really should have kept Elevation and Dark.  I miss them.

Per the new agreement with WBD they could no longer do shows on YT.