Forbidden Door II - 6/25/2023

[Octopus]

26 minutes ago, Craig H said:

I think it's a stretch to say it's a cursed show.

Nope, it’s cursed. That’s why the door is forbidden.

[SirFozzie]

I'm beginning to wonder if they give Sammy the sting retirement match.

[southofheavy]

4 minutes ago, SirFozzie said:

I'm beginning to wonder if they give Sammy the sting retirement match.

Dear God, no. 

[Craig H]

As for my thoughts on the show, I thought it was outstanding except the matches that were basically squashes highlighted that you don't need this many matches on the main card. Squashes is strong, but there were matches that were far shorter than TV matches. JB vs SANADA comes to mind (I cannot sanction this buffoonery about SANADA not being good). That was like a Raw or SD sprint to fit in between commercial breaks and was mainly a vehicle to turn JB heel. The 6-man was especially glaring. The moment Naito didn't take his t-shirt off I figured, well shit, he's totally in house show mode and this is going to be short. Sure enough, he didn't do much and it was another sprint. It also didn't help that it followed one of the greatest matches ever.

That brings me to my match of the night and current match of the year, Kenny vs Will 2. That was fucking crazy and outstanding. Double juice, Ospreay out to prove he's not the same guy Kenny faced the first time, and yeah, while that final stretch was a bit much, I was jumping off my couch for how crazy it was. That crowd was sooooooooo fucking amped for everything they were seeing. Looking forward to the final part of this trilogy at All In. I'm guessing it will be at All In.

Danielson vs Okada suffered from that crowd being dead. I know Raz and a couple others thought that the seizure bit took the crowd out of it, but that crowd was already out of it and having a tough time getting back into it. Plus, from reports of people there, fans were leaving during the match. I get Danielson and Okada is a dream match and is important as hell, but that show should have ended with Kenny vs Ospreay. Okada also looked...off...during the match. I can't quite put my finger on it, but going in I was imagining something along the lines of Okada vs Shibata and Okada hit 2 or 3 standing dropkicks to cut off Danielson's momentum. No spinning tombstone. The Money Clip was used mid-match as almost a transition move. I don't know, things just felt very off between the two of them and I think they have a better match in them. Honestly, the highlight for me was everything after Danielson broke his arm. I jokingly said a few days ago that Danielson is going to wrestle until his arm falls off or his brain drips out of his ear, but I didn't mean that to happen. Still, his broken arm lead to an entirely different dimension for how the finish of that match was going to play out. The early arm work combing back to haunt Okada and Danielson using his leg to basically chicken wing Okada was brilliant. So yeah, I'm of two minds about that match. I expected them to take each other to the limit and it wasn't that, but there was some technical work in that match that was really outstanding and it sucks that the crowd was spent and couldn't get into it more.

I didn't give a shit about MJF vs Tanahashi. One, I don't like Tanahashi that much and I like him even less shambling around the ring because he's so fucking broken. Include him in tag matches instead of Naito or whatever. 

Punk vs Kojima was fun as fuck. I started cracking up when Punk did his callback to the shoot with Joe. "KOJIIIIMAAAA! KOJIIIIMAAA! LAAARIAAAAT! LAAARIAAAT!" Punk does an amazing job of tip toeing that line between heel and face and not giving a fuck about the reactions he's getting. People can have whatever opinions they want to have about him as a person, but he knows how to work a match and a crowd to near perfection.

Fucking loved the 4-way. That was so much fun. Meltzer was commenting on how the first part of that match was too clean, whatever that means. ZSJ came out of that match looking like a superstar and the biggest threat to OC's reign. I also again appreciate ZSJ throwing in a couple "fuckers" and "dickheads" in the match. Shibata for the first time in a long time looked like the Shibata of old. Garcia played his role as potential spoiler so well. I'm not sure I dig whatever the fuck he's doing with his Alex Wright dance, but it's somewhat amusing. That bit where Garcia kept coming back dancing to get slapped by Shibata or kicked by ZSJ was hilarious. ZSJ trying to rip OC's hand off ruled and OC again stealing the win was awesome. This has been one of the best AEW stories of the year and maybe in the company's history with OC basically being taken closer and closer to his breaking point and showing how important keeping that title is to him. I fucking love it. He's doing everything in his power to find ways to win and sooner or later his luck is going to run out. It puts me of two minds about the future of AEW. You either build to OC vs MJF or you build to Eddie vs MJF.

Speaking of Eddie, holy fuck, he is in that rare air with Kenny and Will from last night, Roman, Sami, Cody, and the Usos as being the most over guy in wrestling. He spends a bunch of time away from AEW TV to work ROH, then is on the shelf to have hernia surgery, comes back, gets some of the biggest and loudest reactions on Dynamite, comes out last night, and like EVA said, his showdown with Mox was some Rock vs Hogan level shit. My god. What is it going to take to give Eddie a monster push? Who is more over than him?! The match itself was awesome. I'm a sucker for 10-man tags and this one reminded me a lot of that really awesome Raw 10-man tag between HHH/X-Pac/Benoit/Saturn/Malenko and Rock/Foley/Rikishi/Too Cool. There's so many directions you can go in after that match, one of them being, my god, Takeshita vs Ishii. Holy shit. They were straight up killing each other. Awesome, awesome match.

Women's match was good, but there was no way Toni Storm was losing so whatever. Kinda like the other two World title matches where the finish was never in doubt. Plus, I like Willow, but it kinda sucks they couldn't bring in an import for Toni to go up against. However, I am really looking forward to Toni and Giulia and Toni's attempts to slap the tits off of Giulia. Good luck with that.

BTW, media scrum Toni Storm is the fucking best.

All in all, it was a tremendous show. One point I do want to make though is about the amount of matches. I feel like I'm the only one of you all that doesn't give a shit and doesn't watch the Zero Hour or pre-show matches. They just don't factor in for me. They're matches that are on YouTube that I can literally watch whenever I want. They're the matches that mean less than any of the matches on the main show and the only Zero Hour match that ever mattered was Eddie vs Akiyama and Eddie selling the hell out of ordering the PPV afterwards. Other than that, give yourselves a break. Who gives a shit if they book 14 matches with a good deal of those being on the pre show? Just don't watch the pre show or watch it whenever you want. It's ultimately not the thing you're paying for. I paid to watch Forbidden Door and that's what I watches. I didn't pay to watch Zero Hour. I'll watch that shit whenever. Don't torture yourselves. Just watch the shit you're paying for and spread everything else out when you have free time.

[SirFozzie]

I think I get what Meltzer means, that it was quite clearly, Ok, we do the four pump kicks, then the four suplexes.. very impressive spots  but not something you'd see in a fight. They were all hit perfectly mind you.

[SirFozzie]

I think what they might want to do is the following:

 

A) If you're going this big, make it a two night thing like Wrestle Kingdom was or that. Fewer, but longer matches each day.

 

If the goal is to build up AEW in Japan, then host it on a Saturday Night so it's sunday in japan, not sunday Night.

[Steventon]

Considering the hype I thought the show was OK. Not great, not bad. My biggest take away was that the New Japan roster is still absurdly mediocre for the most part.

MJF vs Tanahashi and Punk vs Kojima were perfectly solid matches I won't remember in a week's time. Tanahashi is Exhibit A of guys who rely on athleticism first and foremost aging badly. Time to switch things up and wrestle smarter and rely on his personality more rather than taking an age trying to not fall off the top rope. Kojima is almost 10 years older than him and looked better. Heel Punk was fun.

The dickheady grapply guys fourway was good fun. Sexy dancing Garcia is great and I popped huge for OC stealing another win. Fuck Adam Cole, give me OC vs MJF double titles at the next PPV.

I have seen maybe 2-3 SANADA matches over the past 5 years and he's still another athletic guy who doesn't get much about pro wrestling. He was getting out-chopped by the considerably smaller guy. Not sure what he really brings outside of Mutoh tribute spots. JB as a heel will be interesting to see how he gets on, not sure he has the charisma to pull it off but hopefully he can lean into that?

The Elite vs BCC 10 man was good fun and another enjoyable addition to this feud without being a barnburner. That said, the spot with Kingston saving Moxley was the dumbest shit on a show with a couple really dumb moments. I assume it was a callback to the Bucks vs Mox/Kingston match but if so then that is 'pro wrestling as high art' disappearing up its own ass. Shota doesn't fit with BCC at all, he looks and wrestles more like a Tanahashi close. Feels like he has gone in the wrong direction from his young lion days. On the plus side, Duster Takeshita ruled and he was probably the best Japanese talent on this show.

Omega vs Ospreay did not need to go 40 minutes, but man there was some parts of it that were really great. Especially in the first half with Ospreay really bringing the hate and paying Omega back by beating him a bloody pulp in front of the Canadian crowd. It was still and Omega vs Ospreay so there was inevitably some shit that was either dumb or convoluted, but some of it was undeniably compelling. I would agree it went overboard at the end and Omega's last comeback attempt was kinda bullshit - the fired up kickout was great, him just standing up and trading blows as if he hadn't eaten 2 finishers and been stabbed in the head was not. The foot on the rope was an epic nearfall though. All in I thought this was a big thumbs up even if it wasn't the 8 star epic it will no doubt get called.

Sting 6-man was kind of a mess. Naito mailed it in massively and there was a bunch of bodged moments. 

Danielson vs Okada was..... a match. I am a low voter on these 'dream match' scenarios as it is, and this was just an OK match. Okada is one of the most overrated talents of the last 20 years and offered very little here. Danielson was Danielson but I'd agree the seizure spot was 1) ill-judged and in bad taste and 2) goofy looking - I did not buy it for a moment. The key to these Once In A Lifetime matches being special is do stuff which you could only see with this pairing. If it's just Danielson doing Danielson things and Okada doing the same stuff he does every match, it's just another match. And that's how I felt about this. The finish was a surprise but the crowd felt flat for it. Big result, and I am confident they will run a rematch at some point. This probably won't be the 10th best match Danielson has this year.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Steventon

[chriskbrown50]

Tanahashi looks to be pretty used up, unfortunately.   Man, I want Nakamura to be in these so bad. 

I know Toni and Juice being on the same cards consistently had to be great for both.  

[EVA]

22 minutes ago, Steventon said:

 

I have seen maybe 2-3 SANADA matches over the past 5 years and he's still another athletic guy who doesn't get much about pro wrestling.

He’s like if you grew a pro wrestler in a lab but then didn’t teach it to wrestle.

[John from Cincinnati]

Punk full-on pulled a Cody "whoops, I almost left through the heel tunnel, my bad." We're back. We've never been so back. Thriving. 

[Infinit]

54 minutes ago, SirFozzie said:

I think what they might want to do is the following:

 

A) If you're going this big, make it a two night thing like Wrestle Kingdom was or that. Fewer, but longer matches each day.

 

If the goal is to build up AEW in Japan, then host it on a Saturday Night so it's sunday in japan, not sunday Night.

I think with Collision being a thing now, we can take 2 night events and Saturday PPVs off the table for AEW.

[odessasteps]

But isn't one of their things to not run any ppvs on Sundays during the nfl season? 

[SirFozzie]

turn collision into the zero hour for those shows (and of course, you'd have to move it forward in time.

[Craig H]

1 minute ago, SirFozzie said:

turn collision into the zero hour for those shows (and of course, you'd have to move it forward in time.

6:05 PM Eastern!

[clintthecrippler]

6 hours ago, HarryArchieGus said:

Omega kicking out of Ospreay's One Winged Angel at 1, and the incredible reaction it got live in the arena last night, was a personally defining 'why I love wrestling' moment. 

I normally can't stand the modern trend these days on the indies of having an emphatic "fighting spirit" kickout-at-1 spot, but this may have been one of the best versions of that spot ever, as I can buy an adrenaline rush hitting of "he really hit MY finish on ME? THAT MOTHERFUCKER!"

I have loved that both of these matches have been way more HATE-fueled than I was expecting. And last night we somehow got dangerous AJPW 90s-era head-droppy stuff AND Sgt Slaughter/Iron Sheik spots with the Canadian flag standing in for the American flag in the same match! 

Aside from the "Don Callis just waltzes back to the ring with impunity" shenanigans - which ultimately I wasn't as angry about by the end of the match since ultimately Will still had to EARN the victory after that went down - this honestly was one of the most perfect wrestling matches for me ever.

[worldcupfever]

28 minutes ago, clintthecrippler said:

Aside from the "Don Callis just waltzes back to the ring with impunity" shenanigans - which ultimately I wasn't as angry about by the end of the match since ultimately Will still had to EARN the victory after that went down - this honestly was one of the most perfect wrestling matches for me ever.

Impunity or not, as soon as he was on the screen I was so pissed that they had to interject Callis into this.  I get the storyline, but this is one pairing that does not need outside interference, especially from a goof.

[Go2Sleep]

Ospreay/Omega was fucking awesome, just the absolute shit. This was such a late 90s AJ/early 00s NOAH match, but with Crockett hate, blood, and heel manager shenanigans. Magnum/Tully meets Misawa/Kobashi. Were they fishing for stars? Yes, and I will give them all the stars for this masterpiece.

Overkill is bad when it's happening every week, but these are the matches where a dozen finishers and new super finishers are not simply justified, but essential. Ospreay and Omega were obviously at their top of their games, but the Don Callis expertly played an important role during the final third that held it all together. Yes, Will and Kenny each want to prove they're the best, but Callis needs Will to win this match. He's the one that abandoned his long-time moneymaker. He's the one that stabbed his "son" with a screwdriver. If Kenny wins this match, Don is done as a credible kingmaker in wrestling. He looks like an absolute moron. Kenny and Will and can win or lose and still be top guys, but Don is nothing if he isn't attached to a top guy. He has the most at stake in this match, and his presence is what motivates Kenny to find a new level, which seems unthinkable. The announcers even made a point early in the match that Don was always trying to stay in Kenny's line of sight. So Don desperately needs Will establish himself as someone who can out-Kenny Kenny, and Kenny has extra personal motivation to not let Don be proven right. All that leads to an escalation beyond what was thought possible. Don passes Will the trusty screwdriver, followed by his regular 1-2 finisher sequence. Kenny has just enough to get a foot on the rope, perhaps not even consciously. Crowd goes apeshit. Will follows with more bombs and ok, here's a coup de grace, I'll beat him with his own unescapable move. Except Kenny kicks out at one because he is NOT losing to Don and Will like that an is extremely offended at the idea they'd try. Crowd goes even more apeshit. Kenny fights back to near equal footing, but in reality, he's not close to winning. The damage is adding up, and he's running on pure spite. He can't secure the OWA any more, and Will is ready to go deeper. Ripcord Hidden Blade, TD 91 (holy fuck), then the "no elbow pad" hidden blade, and one more unnecessary stormbreaker just to punctuate that it's his time and he's doing it his way.

True MOTDC, and a rare match that captured the magic of 90s AJ since the 90s despite many trying. This is what pro wrestling is all about.
 

[Matt D]

1 hour ago, Steventon said:

2) goofy looking - I did not buy it for a moment.

You could argue that Okada didn't buy it either. He walked right over and tried to pick him up and take his head off.

[JLowe]

With Zero Hour, this was 5 hours and I was pretty tired and burned out by the end. I enjoyed most all of it, but I wasn't completely blown away by some things that I expected to be, many of which have been mentioned.

Quick match notes.

-Chaos vs. Mogul Embassy. Swerve has superstar potential. Trent is great. Desperado didn't fit.

-Athena v Billie Starkz. Fun match! Billie took a beating and took a nasty top rope to apron bump (self-inflicted) and a nasty powerbomb bump. Got a nice rub though and looking forward to lots more from her. Athena continues to kick ass and they should feed Jade to her as an apology.

-Stu v Phantasmo. I don't like the Righteous and I think Stu is extremely fungible. Spot fest.

-United Empire vs LiJ. Love Jeff Cobb. Like Kyle Fletcher and think he has top card potential. Not really familiar with anyone else (I watched some NJPW 5 or so years ago but only LiJ I remember is Naito). I remember liking this match.

- MJF v Tanahashi. As others have said, MJF's pacing and stooging helped a lot because Tanahashi looked really rough and almost as hobbled as Matt Hardy.

- Punk v Kojima. Liked this one a lot, stiff and fun and Punk really leaned into heeling. I imagine Punk had an icebag on his yambag area for a couple of hours afterwards.

- International Title 4-way. My MOTN (and I don't like multi-man matches that much), a perfect blend of action, comedy, stooging, movez, storytelling, character work, selling. Everyone came out looking like a winner, and OC added another layer to his character. Yes, some stuff was contrived, that's how 2023 wrestling is sometimes, especially in a match with a fair amount of comedy. More ZSJ please.

- Perry v Sanada. Perfectly ok match that will be remembered for the post-match turn which somehow managed to be a shock while having been obviously built to for weeks. I don't think it's going to make me care about Perry much more.

- 10 man. Honestly a mess and a bit of a let-down as a brawl but with some incredible moments. Takeshita looked like a star. I loved the 3-minute Mox-Kingston chop exchange with everyone else brawling around them. I like Page a ton but I'm over the Bucks now, speaking of contrived bullshit spots. Yuta continually being the job boy is bullshit and needs a payoff. I liked Shooter. Ishii is Ishii, he really put over Lard Lad. I'm not a vampire but this needed some blood.

- Storm v Willow. Speaking of people who did the job to Jade who deserve a payback, future superstar Willow fucking Nightengale. Great match, but spoiled by yet another crap ending. Once again, why are Skye Blue (Willow's BFF screen-wise and also close friends IRL) and Britt "top babyface/ruler of the roost" Baker watching while Outcasts interfere. Also, they had a terrible camera angle on the Pounce.

- Omega vs Ospreay. In the moment, I loved this and I was marking out a lot for the big moves, the kickouts, the blood, Ospreay's hate and Kenny's desperation. I was mad about them letting Callis back, made no sense at all. Reading through the comments here, I can see why some people hated it. Finishers in 2023 are weird, and I liked the idea that Ospreay had to hit so many killer moves to finally put Omega down.

- Trios match. Worst I've seen Sting look. Darby disappeared. Love Murder Grandpa. The Jericho-Sammy storyline took a step back in this match. Sammy should join Rush in LFI and be a pretty boy tweener. Big letdown overall.

- Main event. Started with a really hot crowd which gave it a great feel. I thought it was an excellent pace, hard-hitting, lots of moves and counters and reversals and waiting for someone to finally get that BIG shot in. When Brian stopped using his right arm, I figured he was hurt but was open to him just deciding to do an all-time sell job to put over him being the best wrestler alive with how he adapted his submission technique. Instead, he actually did that for real just amazing. That said, I hated the seizure spot as someone who has been through that with a loved one but also as someone worried about "the boy who cried wolf". Wish they had come up with a better way to get Brian checked out and work out the finishing run.

I don't regret getting this, but I wasn't nearly as blown away as I was expecting.

 

 

 

 

[hobo joe]

I'm not opposed to the Danielson convulsions spot, but the way it was used deflated the crowd just they were getting up after The Rainmaker pose, which is the universal sign of an Okada match kicking into second gear. If it was to cover the doctor checking out his arm, then it is what it is.

Okada vs Danielson wasn't all I was expecting it to be, especially after Omega v Ospreay (Tiger Mother Fucking Driver 91) but dude broke his fucking arm and I can't possibly complain about Dragon tapping out Okada.

Four way was the shit. I'm fine with SANADA v Jack ending the way it did to facilitate the heel turn. Elite vs BCC was fun as fuck. They have something with Willow and she should win the lady Owen. Fuck Punk.

[Just Dave]

Also, you know the Omega/Ospreay match was killer if I liked it. I really, really tried hard not to, but it reaffirms my new hypothesis that the things I find most offensive about Kenny Omega are usually only on display with the Jackson’s…

[Go2Sleep]

Anyway, the Omega/Ospreay match deserves its own post, but the rest of the show was fine.

Tanahashi is Jeff-Hardy level washed, but MJF is capable of working a slower match and playing the crowd, so it wasn't too bad.

Punk/Kojima was a sleeper second place MOTN. Punk was in top form and worked his tweener status just right. Kinda shows why TK puts up with Punk's bullshit, because the man gets pro wrestling, love him or hate him.

Sanada/JB was kind of underwhelming, but made sense to hold them back as a catalyst for Perry's turn.

The 4-way and 10-man both seemed fun at the time, though I can't remember much about them specifically.

The women's match and the 6-man were the worst matches. The women's match lacked interest because literally everyone knew how it would go start to finish. The 6-man seemed to lack chemistry between several combinations of guys, Sting's limitations were front and center, and the mind-boggling videogame sell (act like death after it happens, start hitting your regular moves again 30 seconds later) of the 630 through the table was bizarre. The idea that he was supposed to move makes a lot of sense. Minoru losing to a shoulder block and a bad roll up was not befitting.

Danielson/Okada was going along fine, but obviously hampered by Bryan's injury down the stretch. The "I beat Okada with a broken freakin arm" lines will make for great guest heel commentary lines for the next 6-8 weeks, but it was sad to see in real time. Credit to him for doing as much as he did and Okada for being a pro and adapting with it. They still managed a credible finish despite everything. The seizure thing struck me as more silly than offensive, reminded me of D-Von Dudley. Didn't really fit the match either way. Hopefully Okada will get a Forbidden Door match that isn't ruined by injury one year. Hearing the Final Countdown was  wonderful, though, and I kind of like how for Bryan's big matches they just drop all the BCC shit and let him be "Big Match Bryan" and the crowd eats it up. Hopefully he'll be good for All In.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Go2Sleep

[Just Adam Bay Bay]

I’m not going to post a lot since most of my thoughts have already been shared by others. I will say to me the three best matches of the night were (in order of best to third best):

Omega vs Ospreay 

Orange Cassidy vs Zack Sabre Jr vs Katsuyori Shibata vs Daniel Garcia

The Elite/Tomohiro Ishii/Eddie Kingston vs The BCC/Shota Umino/Konosuke Takashita

I’d definitely give CM Punk vs Satoshi Kojima an honorable mention though as I felt like that way overdelivered. I’ve not seen a Kojima match since he was last in Impact, and that was really great.

As for the most disappointing match I’d say that goes to Jungle Boy and Sanada. I’ve seen Sanada live before, and I thought he was better than what he showed last night. The highlight of that match for me was Red Shoes, and the crowd reaction he got. 

Honestly even if they’d only aired the top two matches I listed I’d have felt like I got my $50 worth and then some. I hope they run Omega vs Ospreay two out of three falls (as someone else suggested) at All In, and let them go for 60-75 minutes if they want. And to me last night cemented Kenny as being the true Best In The World (sorry @The Natural but I’d take any of Kenny’s Okada matches over the main event, and I’m not sure Bryan could match the two Ospreay matches from this year) on a night that featured two others who make that claim. I think it’s a safe bet Ospreay agrees as I see in his tweet today he mentioned everyone in the company being “All Elite” but Kenny is “Above Elite”.

[Matt D]

By far the funniest way for Punk to reinjure himself would be by doing the Hogan leg drop.

[Dolphman 3000]

1 hour ago, clintthecrippler said:

Aside from the "Don Callis just waltzes back to the ring with impunity" shenanigans - which ultimately I wasn't as angry about by the end of the match since ultimately Will still had to EARN the victory after that went down - this honestly was one of the most perfect wrestling matches for me ever.

I think the pro-tier move would have been for the masked goons to disappear with Don backstage as he's thrown out, and then later in the match the goons reappear but ONE OF THEM IS DON

This is clearly too much effort for Don, so we got the lazy run-in instead