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FEB 2020 WRESTLING DISCUSSION


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11 hours ago, AxB said:

There's guys who do strongman feats who pull cars with their cocks. Not to mention the bodypiercing weightlifting thing like in the Jim Rose Circus.

In, I want to say 95, I saw a triple bill of Nine Inch Nails, Marilyn Manson, and the Jim Rose Circus Sideshow.  We were on the floor, maybe 30 feet from the stage.  A dude in front of us puked during one of the Sideshow's acts.  That's when you know it's such good shit pal.

1 hour ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

I remember my dad would always tease me when I was a kid by telling me “These guys are punching each other in the face, and they don’t bleed, or get knocked out”. I would get so pissed at him for that.

Same!  My dad, a huge boxing fan, would always scoff at the 10 punch in the corner. 

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It's the same with anything else. If in Avengers: Endgame Captain America started shooting lasers out of his eyes then it might not be any less "realistic" than him being able to boomerang his shield but it would be against established norms. 

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Wrestling is a lot more flexible than that. In a few weeks time the top star of the 80’s WWF went from a short, but “realistic” wrestler with a legit amateur background, to a large, and almost comic book-like superhuman orange monster. Completely changing the status quo of their business.

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40 minutes ago, Matt D said:

It's the same with anything else. If in Avengers: Endgame Captain America started shooting lasers out of his eyes then it might not be any less "realistic" than him being able to boomerang his shield but it would be against established norms. 

It also goes the other way, where if all of a sudden some regular dude with a gun walks up and shoots Captain America in the face.  We've pretty much agreed that Captain America is bulletproof and/or moves fast enough to block bullets with his shield.  If Captain America can all of a sudden use Thor's hammer, we accept it because they're selling the same brand of ridiculous.  If he gets shot in the face and dies we don't.  It's why I hate shoot submissions, but don't mind penis suplexes.  Pretty much any suplex other than a German suplex or a gutwrench suplex is completely unrealistic in a shoot fight.  In that context why is a penis suplex any more unrealistic than a dragon suplex?  But, if you put on a shoot submission that a 12 year old could use to dislocate your shoulder, and the guy in the submission is able to fight his way to the ropes it makes you wonder, "why is he letting him do that?"  If someone puts someone in a Boston crab, I never think that.

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48 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

Penis plex is like a test of strength. Sure the opponent can just kick his rival in the gut, but he finds it too alluring not to take up the challenge. Same with the penis plex. Wrestlers want to prove that a full bodied wrestler should be able to take down a medium sized penis. 

Okay, between this and discussion about older wrestlers in their prime competing today dare I say this has been one of the better months for the monthly thread?  If not then it sure as shit is to me.

And with talk of both happening this month I want to merge the two topics and wonder how folks like Rick Rude and Val Venis would fare in a showdown with Joey Ryan.

Edited by NikoBaltimore
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Just now, Yo-Yo's Roomie said:

A dragon suplex, and most other suplexes is a guy using leverage and technique to throw another guy. A penis suplex is just a guy holding onto someone else's dick and doing a front flip. I don't see how they're comparable. 

Do you think you could dragon suplex a man who didn't flat out let you dragon suplex him?  You think you could grab a large man in a full nelson, and lift his entire bodyweight over your head?  Do you know how shoot suplexes work?  One day, ask a friend to see if you can lift him by his shoulders.  I'm not saying ask him to allow you to suplex him, just lift him off the ground an inch or two by his shoulders.  Then ask if you can lift him from the waist.  You'll see why a German suplex works and a dragon suplex doesn't.  A shoot suplex works because you get your center of gravity below your opponents center of gravity.  I'd bet Taz could do it, but he was both very short and had a uncommonly low center of gravity.  But most wrestlers, as strong as they are, couldn't do a legit shoot dragon suplex.  Do you think you could vertical suplex a man who wasn't cooperating?  How about one of those crazy joshi suplexes where they cross both arms, lift them up on their shoulders and then do a bridge?  It's wrestling, none of this shit works unless we believe that wrestlers can do these ridiculous things.  As long as they're selling ridiculous, I'm fine.  Once they try to be "real" is where they lose me.  

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9 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Do you think you could dragon suplex a man who didn't flat out let you dragon suplex him?  You think you could grab a large man in a full nelson, and lift his entire bodyweight over your head?  Do you know how shoot suplexes work?  One day, ask a friend to see if you can lift him by his shoulders.  I'm not saying ask him to allow you to suplex him, just lift him off the ground an inch or two by his shoulders.  Then ask if you can lift him from the waist.  You'll see why a German suplex works and a dragon suplex doesn't.  A shoot suplex works because you get your center of gravity below your opponents center of gravity.  I'd bet Taz could do it, but he was both very short and had a uncommonly low center of gravity.  But most wrestlers, as strong as they are, couldn't do a legit shoot dragon suplex.  Do you think you could vertical suplex a man who wasn't cooperating?  How about one of those crazy joshi suplexes where they cross both arms, lift them up on their shoulders and then do a bridge?  It's wrestling, none of this shit works unless we believe that wrestlers can do these ridiculous things.  As long as they're selling ridiculous, I'm fine.  Once they try to be "real" is where they lose me.  

I understand where you're coming from, but I think most people, myself included, don't care about what would work in a shoot, so much as they care about the established rules of pro wrestling and its own internal logic. And yes, that isn't a black and white issue, because those rules change and evolve over time. 

Really, I think Matt D's post should have been the last word on this issue.

And for the record, I like Joey Ryan but think the penis-plex is stupid and I have no interest in shit like that, or other 'performance art' aspects of wrestling (hand grenades, invisible men etc). I'm not joyless. I like comedy in wrestling. I just like comedy within the framework of wrestling's own internal logic. 

And whether it would work in a shoot or not, I can believe a trained pro wrestler being able to straightjacket suplex a dude.

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38 minutes ago, NikoBaltimore said:

Okay, between this and discussion about older wrestlers in their prime competing dare I say this has been one of the better months for the monthly thread?  If not then it sure as shit is to me.

And with talk of both happening this month I want to merge the two topics and wonder how folks like Rick Rude and Val Venis would fare in a showdown with Joey Ryan.

Way better than the miscellaneous wwe thread it usually is. I loved reading the takes on older generations fitting into today's era. 

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1 hour ago, supremebve said:

Do you think you could dragon suplex a man who didn't flat out let you dragon suplex him?  You think you could grab a large man in a full nelson, and lift his entire bodyweight over your head?  Do you know how shoot suplexes work?  One day, ask a friend to see if you can lift him by his shoulders.  I'm not saying ask him to allow you to suplex him, just lift him off the ground an inch or two by his shoulders. 

Anyone who can deadlift or shrug more than their bodyweight (which is basically anyone who's been lifting for a while, or anyone who doesn't lift but is naturally strong) could pick someone of the same size up in by the shoulders. Obviously most wrestlers can squat, never mind deadlift, more than their own bodyweight (and if you don't believe that, watch some Sammy Guevara. He's not a muscle guy, not a strength guy, but one of his signature spots is a Samoan Drop where he squats his opponent a couple of times before dropping. He did two reps with Dustin Rhodes, who outweighs Sammy by at least 40 pounds).

As far as Suplexes go, it's not actually safe for an untrained guy to German Suplex the invisible man, is it? You'd knock yourself out if you did it right, which you probably wouldn't. Notwithstanding that even going to a high bridge from a lying on your back position is a lot to ask from a non-athlete. 

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46 minutes ago, Overly Critical Man said:

I did in a schoolyard fight in high school, so your entire argument is now invalidated. 🧐

OK, here's a quick story about my first day in judo class.  The class was set up so the first hour was instructional and the second hour was all rolling.  The first hour I learned how to break fall and we ran through the o goshi, and a kesa gatame.  It was basically enough instruction that allowed me not to die during sparring.  So the second hour starts and everyone is being super light with me, and kind of walking me through things as we go...except for this 130 lb. dude named Rohan.  At the time, I'm 19 about 190 lbs. and in very good shape, and this 130 lb. dude is literally throwing me around the gym.  He is unleashing his entire arsenal of throws and I'm getting fucked up, because until I got matched up with him I'd done maybe 15 break falls.  So, there is a judo throw where you put your foot on your opponent's hip, and roll back which allows you to throw your opponent head over heels.  Rohan, who is a yellow belt, which is much better than a day one noob, but is only one promotion above white belt, tries this throw on me.  When he kicks his leg up, I grab it before his foot gets to my hip.  I pull his head down with his gi, reach around his head, lock my hands and hit that punk bitch with a perfectplex.  That dude was an asshole, and taking advantage of the fact that I didn't know enough to defend myself.  Sending him on that ride is one of the most satisfying feelings of my entire life.  I will take your word for your schoolyard vertical suplex, but I'm skeptical...but I know for a fact you can hit a fisherman suplex.  

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2 hours ago, supremebve said:

 If Captain America can all of a sudden use Thor's hammer, we accept it because they're selling the same brand of ridiculous.

Just interjecting: Captain America could always lift Thor's hammer.  He just faked like he couldn't that one time because Cap is an all around solid dude who didn't want Thor to feel bad.

2 hours ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

@NikoBaltimore Rick Rude would knock them both out with open hand slaps

Not if they kicked out his tiny legs first.

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2 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

Just interjecting: Captain America could always lift Thor's hammer.  He just faked like he couldn't that one time because Cap is an all around solid dude who didn't want Thor to feel bad.

Not if they kicked out his tiny legs first.

It's an upper body business, tech!

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1 hour ago, AxB said:

Anyone who can deadlift or shrug more than their bodyweight (which is basically anyone who's been lifting for a while, or anyone who doesn't lift but is naturally strong) could pick someone of the same size up in by the shoulders. Obviously most wrestlers can squat, never mind deadlift, more than their own bodyweight (and if you don't believe that, watch some Sammy Guevara. He's not a muscle guy, not a strength guy, but one of his signature spots is a Samoan Drop where he squats his opponent a couple of times before dropping. He did two reps with Dustin Rhodes, who outweighs Sammy by at least 40 pounds).

As far as Suplexes go, it's not actually safe for an untrained guy to German Suplex the invisible man, is it? You'd knock yourself out if you did it right, which you probably wouldn't. Notwithstanding that even going to a high bridge from a lying on your back position is a lot to ask from a non-athlete. 

All of these things are true, except that isn't how any of this works.  If you put a power lifter against an amateur wrestler of comparable weights, the power lifter is going to get dumped on his head.  Being able to lift a lot doesn't necessarily mean that you have the explosion and technique it would take to suplex someone.  Suplexing someone is much more of an athletic feat than a feat of strength.  It's probably closer to dunking a basketball than doing a squat or a deadlift.  Everyone has the potential to squat or deadlift a pretty heavy weight with enough time and training, but being able to dunk a ball takes a lot of functional athleticism that is exceptionally rare.  

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1 hour ago, Brian Fowler said:

Ever since the controversy over whoever (Jordyn Grace?) calling wrestling "performance art" happened, I've been trying to figure out any possible way pro wrestling doesn't fit that category, and came up with nothing.

I dont recall the controversy, but I will say that I have great respect for her for that, because the two most notable people I can think of who not only approach it that way but have spoken publicly about it are Bryan and Bret-- not bad company to be in. 

Edit: maybe it's the generational shift? Guys now break in because this is what they have always  want to do, not because they failed in football, or someone discovered them in a gym

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