GENERAL NXT DISCUSSION THREAD

[Patrick B.]

I'd heard that it was Ciampa who had signed, not Gargano.

[turk128]

Seems they've been signing a lot of the smaller guys lately... is HHH going through with his light heavyweight division not-so-pie-in-the-sky idea?

[Cristobal]

They also signed Joe and Rhyno. I don't think they're targeting smaller guys so much as just signing who they want and there's more "smaller" (read: normal-sized) guys out there than big ones.

[The Z]

I'd heard that it was Ciampa who had signed, not Gargano.

 

I don't think either one has been signed, yet.

There was a rumor two weeks ago that Ciampa announced that he was signed at a Progress show in England, but he went to Twitter afterwards and basically said "don't believe everything you read on the internet".

[SirSmUgly]

Late to the party, but I agree with Goodear that Malenko did have a character: wrestling savant. That's what made his matches with all those different style guys in '96-'97 so fun from a character standpoint: Could the wrestling savant figure out how to beat all these guys? Plus, he'd do a good job of acting frustrated when he lost or taking shortcuts sometimes when he felt like he wasn't able to solve the new style in time to save his belt. Sure, the matches themselves were basically moves exhibitions, but Malenko had a character there.

 

I don't agree with Goodear that Ciampa and Gargano don't have characters. They're just young, flashy up-and-comers who, despite their tag team experience and impressive moves, are essentially underdogs to the more established NXT tag teams. That's why when they lose, but get their offense in, they will stay over, and eventually (assuming they get signed), they'll start to figure things out and begin winning more matches like most singles and tag wrestlers do on this show. 

 

No one seemed to be piling on anyone; there just seemed to be a pretty good discussion about this stuff here. 

[caley]

Plus Malenko was also 'The Ice Man' in WCW.  Everything (his basic tights, his theme music, his promos) reflected this, he was an unfeeling, uncaring, relentless wrestling machine.  He didn't care if the guy opposite him was trying to do high-spots or entertain the crowd, he was going to ground them, put them in holds and finish them.

 

Even his last run in WWE, where he was the Ladies Man or some such nonsense, and spent his time wearing turtle-necks in backstage promos and hitting on Lita, showed more personality than Gargano/Ciampa so far.

[JonnyLaw]

Plus Malenko was also 'The Ice Man' in WCW. Everything (his basic tights, his theme music, his promos) reflected this, he was an unfeeling, uncaring, relentless wrestling machine. He didn't care if the guy opposite him was trying to do high-spots or entertain the crowd, he was going to ground them, put them in holds and finish them.

Even his last run in WWE, where he was the Ladies Man or some such nonsense, and spent his time wearing turtle-necks in backstage promos and hitting on Lita, showed more personality than Gargano/Ciampa so far.

Malenko's WCW music is still my favorite of all time.

[Greggulator]

Yeah, Ice Man Malenko was great. Dude was just there to dismantle whoever was in his path. People sorta mistake "not doing promos" with not having a character sometimes.

General rule with characters in any type of performance art: If you can't sum up who they are in a single sentence, then they aren't good characters.

I don't think I can do that for Gargano and Ciampa.

I think they are good in-ring. But they just don't have personalities that click for me. You know how some wrestlers are obviously thinking "Now is when I do this move. Now is when I sell the leg."

They are doing that but for "Now is when I have to look at the crowd. Now is when I have to turn to the hard camera." The showmanship is forced. Gable and Jordan are great at that part of wrestling. And that is my favorite part of wrestling.

Also: They slap their legs on kicks way too much. I know that is super nit-picky. And The Usos et. al. do that for Superkicks all the time. But I am okay with it in a Superkick because that's a near-finisher for a lot of guys and was one for Shawn Michaels. It's overkill for a mid-match move that isn't in a finishing run.

That's what I mean with forcing it in terms of crowd interactions. That noise is an audience cue that something important -- a kick that could end a match -- just happened. But they used that whip crack audience cue twice, and not in anything that should cause me to think a pin is about to happen. Just calm down with that -- the move looks good enough on its own, and you're making an effective crowd interaction tool useless by doing that.

[Niners Fan in CT]

Oh come on. They haven't even really been given any promo time yet.  For right now they are an outsider team who have experienced some success elsewhere but are trying to make it in NXT. If they sign at some point then you'll start to see more character development. 

[SirSmUgly]

I'm not trying to target you Gregg, but I disagree. The superkick itself is so overused in the company that it comes off as a secondary signature move that will get a two-count for a large amount of its use. See Tyler Breeze as the perfect example of this. Everyone also slaps their things for tons of impact strikes, most of which only get twos because this company tends to indicate that the primary finisher is the only thing that will get three besides a roll-up. In fact, in big matches, sometimes the crowd has even been so conditioned that they won't really get up for the first finisher - see something like Cena/Rock II, where the crowd didn't even buy some of those first finishers because everyone knew that it was too early for the match to end. Anyway, I think that it's hard to pick on these two for doing what most of the wrestlers in this company do - slapping a thigh simply to indicate impact on a strike rather than that a big pinfall attempt is coming up or anything of that nature. 

 

Your criticism seems nitpicky and off-base, in this case, and again, I say this as someone who isn't a big fan of Gargano and Ciampa. 

[Bear Wyatt]

I'm not trying to target you Gregg, but I disagree. The superkick itself is so overused in the company that it comes off as a secondary signature move that will get a two-count for a large amount of its use. See Tyler Breeze as the perfect example of this. Everyone also slaps their things for tons of impact strikes, most of which only get twos because this company tends to indicate that the primary finisher is the only thing that will get three besides a roll-up. In fact, in big matches, sometimes the crowd has even been so conditioned that they won't really get up for the first finisher - see something like Cena/Rock II, where the crowd didn't even buy some of those first finishers because everyone knew that it was too early for the match to end. Anyway, I think that it's hard to pick on these two for doing what most of the wrestlers in this company do - slapping a thigh simply to indicate impact on a strike rather than that a big pinfall attempt is coming up or anything of that nature.

Your criticism seems nitpicky and off-base, in this case, and again, I say this as someone who isn't a big fan of Gargano and Ciampa.

I don't know if anyone else noticed this but on Raw, Nikki Bella went for her "jump off the turnbuckle kick" and her opponent totally ducked it, yet Nikki still slapped her thigh like she made contact.

I think the leg-slapping is so ingrained in wrestling these days that's it's just muscle memory.

[Trocar Slush Weasel]

Plus Malenko was also 'The Ice Man' in WCW.  Everything (his basic tights, his theme music, his promos) reflected this, he was an unfeeling, uncaring, relentless wrestling machine.  He didn't care if the guy opposite him was trying to do high-spots or entertain the crowd, he was going to ground them, put them in holds and finish them.

 

Even his last run in WWE, where he was the Ladies Man or some such nonsense, and spent his time wearing turtle-necks in backstage promos and hitting on Lita, showed more personality than Gargano/Ciampa so far.

 

Heyman had the right idea.  When Malenko came into ECW for that NWA title tourney, they had him cut some 7 fucking minute promo that was terrible.  Soon after that, he was the Shooter and just ripping limbs without saying a word.

[GOTNW]

So by Gregg's logic here, Gable popping the crowd with a Tiger Special was an "indie thing"

 

I really think Gregg just hates Indy's.

In a nutshell:

[The Man Known as Dan]

Greg sure knows a bunch about indy things for a guy who doesn't watch indys.

[Spritenaut 32]

If Gargano really wanted a WWE contract, he'd give birth to a hand in the middle of the ring,

 

That'd be an awful lot of WWE-style character development in one segment.  Vince would shit gold thinking about it.

 

(I'm only being slightly sarcastic.)

[Godfrey]

Not to derail the thread, but I've always been curious when thigh slapping first started. I think the earliest I remember it was Tajiri in ECW. At least, I hope that was thigh slapping...

[Kyuubi]

Dean Malenko's gimmick(s) were that he knew a bunch of holds and was cool and collected.  He worked as a counter point to fired up baby faces like Rey Mysterio Jr. when he was a heel and blew the roof off the place when he finally fired up on Chris Jericho when he was a face.  Dean is also generally critiqued for working in a vacuum and never got over in front of the WWE audience like he did in WCW.  He's one of my favorites but isn't one of the best of all time or anything. 

 

I feel like we are aping Jim Cornette's 'your gimmick is that you are a wrestler' talking point which is so absurd coming from the "Momma's boy, tennis racket swinging, Louisville Slugger, yellow canary jacket" man himself.  No, being a good wrestler is not enough.  Its never been enough ever.  Name any wrestler who ever became anything and he/she had a persona that helped mold their performance in some way.  Ciampo and Gargano don't yet seem to have a unified theme to their performances that will let them get really over.  Their backstage conversation with Regal was supposed to have an air of menace I think?  Like "oh interrupt us will you?"  but Gargano's winky happy face gear doesn't reflect that at all and neither do their actions.

...Rey Mysterio?

[turk128]

Not to derail the thread...

You really weren't, the straw men were getting set up so your question was a good respite. I would also like to know, too.

[odessasteps]

Not to derail the thread, but I've always been curious when thigh slapping first started. I think the earliest I remember it was Tajiri in ECW. At least, I hope that was thigh slapping...

Didnt Chris Adams do it in WCCW with his superkck?

[SorceressKnight]

On the "Gargano and Ciampa storyline"- it seems pretty clear what their gimmick and storyline is:

 

At the moment, Gargano and Ciampa are currently: "Two of the hottest prospects on the independent scene" who were handpicked by NXT General Manager William Regal to wrestle in the Dusty Rhodes Memorial Classic- and pulled off a first-round upset on the way to prove themselves. 

 

However, whether it was by malice (if Regal's heel) or a simple clerical error (if face), Gargano and Ciampa's contract or official rejection letter by NXT was never actually sent out to them. Since then, both Gargano and Ciampa are wrestling on NXT programming thinking they've been signed from their win, without knowing that they're not technically being paid for their matches due to this contract never coming through. Since NXT apparently had a woman on roster for nearly a year despite no one on the roster ever actually catching her name and choosing to go with it once Colin Cassady gave her the nickname of Blue Pants, this is not an uncommon problem on the show.

[The Nature Boy]

On the "Gargano and Ciampa storyline"- it seems pretty clear what their gimmick and storyline is:

 

At the moment, Gargano and Ciampa are currently: "Two of the hottest prospects on the independent scene" who were handpicked by NXT General Manager William Regal to wrestle in the Dusty Rhodes Memorial Classic- and pulled off a first-round upset on the way to prove themselves. 

 

However, whether it was by malice (if Regal's heel) or a simple clerical error (if face), Gargano and Ciampa's contract or official rejection letter by NXT was never actually sent out to them. Since then, both Gargano and Ciampa are wrestling on NXT programming thinking they've been signed from their win, without knowing that they're not technically being paid for their matches due to this contract never coming through. Since NXT apparently had a woman on roster for nearly a year despite no one on the roster ever actually catching her name and choosing to go with it once Colin Cassady gave her the nickname of Blue Pants, this is not an uncommon problem on the show.

 

It's really uncommon for pro wrestling promoters to know the name of their talent since they apparently don't require talent to fill out W4s or even sign contracts using their real names. How else do you explain Mr. McMahon not producing Mr. America's contract to prove that Mr. America and Hulk Hogan were one in the same? Or the NWA not producing The Midnight Rider's contract (or his tax documents since I can buy them not having contracts) to prove that he's Dusty Rhodes? Surely the NWA didn't make out checks to "The Midnight Rider." Pro wrestling authority figures are notoriously bad with paperwork.

[SorceressKnight]

 

On the "Gargano and Ciampa storyline"- it seems pretty clear what their gimmick and storyline is:

 

At the moment, Gargano and Ciampa are currently: "Two of the hottest prospects on the independent scene" who were handpicked by NXT General Manager William Regal to wrestle in the Dusty Rhodes Memorial Classic- and pulled off a first-round upset on the way to prove themselves. 

 

However, whether it was by malice (if Regal's heel) or a simple clerical error (if face), Gargano and Ciampa's contract or official rejection letter by NXT was never actually sent out to them. Since then, both Gargano and Ciampa are wrestling on NXT programming thinking they've been signed from their win, without knowing that they're not technically being paid for their matches due to this contract never coming through. Since NXT apparently had a woman on roster for nearly a year despite no one on the roster ever actually catching her name and choosing to go with it once Colin Cassady gave her the nickname of Blue Pants, this is not an uncommon problem on the show.

 

It's really uncommon for pro wrestling promoters to know the name of their talent since they apparently don't require talent to fill out W4s or even sign contracts using their real names. How else do you explain Mr. McMahon not producing Mr. America's contract to prove that Mr. America and Hulk Hogan were one in the same? Or the NWA not producing The Midnight Rider's contract (or his tax documents since I can buy them not having contracts) to prove that he's Dusty Rhodes? Surely the NWA didn't make out checks to "The Midnight Rider." Pro wrestling authority figures are notoriously bad with paperwork.

 

T

 

 

Well, being fair there, those were somewhat different (remember- the Midnight Rider nearly won the NWA Title, only to be stripped because NWA regulations required him to unmask and reveal his identity)- so it is possible some of the other promotions do require talent to fill out W4s or sign with their non-real name.

[Cristobal]

I have no trouble at all believing NWA promoters wrote checks to "The Midnight Rider." It's cashing them that Dusty would have found difficult.

[The Nature Boy]

 

 

On the "Gargano and Ciampa storyline"- it seems pretty clear what their gimmick and storyline is:

 

At the moment, Gargano and Ciampa are currently: "Two of the hottest prospects on the independent scene" who were handpicked by NXT General Manager William Regal to wrestle in the Dusty Rhodes Memorial Classic- and pulled off a first-round upset on the way to prove themselves. 

 

However, whether it was by malice (if Regal's heel) or a simple clerical error (if face), Gargano and Ciampa's contract or official rejection letter by NXT was never actually sent out to them. Since then, both Gargano and Ciampa are wrestling on NXT programming thinking they've been signed from their win, without knowing that they're not technically being paid for their matches due to this contract never coming through. Since NXT apparently had a woman on roster for nearly a year despite no one on the roster ever actually catching her name and choosing to go with it once Colin Cassady gave her the nickname of Blue Pants, this is not an uncommon problem on the show.

 

It's really uncommon for pro wrestling promoters to know the name of their talent since they apparently don't require talent to fill out W4s or even sign contracts using their real names. How else do you explain Mr. McMahon not producing Mr. America's contract to prove that Mr. America and Hulk Hogan were one in the same? Or the NWA not producing The Midnight Rider's contract (or his tax documents since I can buy them not having contracts) to prove that he's Dusty Rhodes? Surely the NWA didn't make out checks to "The Midnight Rider." Pro wrestling authority figures are notoriously bad with paperwork.

 

T

 

 

Well, being fair there, those were somewhat different (remember- the Midnight Rider nearly won the NWA Title, only to be stripped because NWA regulations required him to unmask and reveal his identity)- so it is possible some of the other promotions do require talent to fill out W4s or sign with their non-real name.

 

 

The only reason that The Midnight Rider had to exist was because Dusty was banned from Florida for 60 days. For this to have worked, Eddie Graham would have to have not known that The Rider and Dusty were one in the same. They ran a whole angle where they were trying to get the NWA to intervene and force The Rider to unmask, the NWA Title thing is what did the trick. I assume that Graham didn't have to submit his rosters to the NWA for any kind of approval and that he was dumb enough to hire a man without knowing who the hell he was.

 

If you think too hard about pro wrestling HR policies, it becomes complicated. 

[The Z]

How do you even know they got paid?

Cleary some wrestlers do it just for the love of the sport and support themselves financially with dayjobs, see Big Bossman, IRS, Duke Droese, the Undertaker etc.