mattdangerously Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 How much of a monster is Verne Gagne for hiptossing that one guy to his death, years ago? That makes him a murderer. Is he removed from WWE material? Just a counterpoint for discussion. One that didn't exist when the shit went down with Benoit. Verne Gagne was an elderly man in a nursing home, who was suffering from dementia and couldn't even remember the incident. Chris Benoit was a functioning adult who was regularly performing on television, and as far as anyone knows, may have been in full command of all his mental faculties at the time of the murders. Not quite the same thing. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cool arrow Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 It sucks for the guy he did it to, but the fact that Verne remembered how to do the move was kinda impressive, in a way. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafkonia Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Several years ago I was in a six-week outpatient programme for mood disorders at the local hospital, and one of my fellow patients was a former police officer who had been hit in the back of the head with a rock while trying to break up a domestic disturbance (by the victim, of all things.) He had memory issues and anger control issues and could no longer do the job he had done for so long. All because of one blow to the head. I absolutely think the concussions contributed to what Benoit did. It would be blind to think otherwise. But there were probably so many, for so long, that you can't extricate them from who he was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nate Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Holy false equivalence, Batman.I don't think I was shooting for equivalence, except that they were both murders in different senses of the word. Maybe I phrased my statement incorrectly, with "counterpoint". But I balked on "juxtaposition;" maybe that was the right word after all.And I wasn't trying to stir up any shit. That was territory trodden by swarthy food service workers of the Spaniard variety. And people get banned because reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Someone in here that week later a link to the detailed profile of a "family annihilator" that fit Benoit in a lot of ways even before we knew how bad his brain was. I rarely watch his stuff now, but I no longer avoid it like the plague. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdangerously Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Yeah, I occassionally get the urge to watch specific matches of his--the Pillman Memorial against Regal, or the Spring Stampede match with Malenko vs Raven and Saturn--but that's just because I really like those matches. I never just feel like watching Benoit matches in a general sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godfrey Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Years back, I worked in a retirement home. Many of the residents were senile. One guy, who'd been a lumberjack when he was young, would always piss on the wall right after lunch. Why? Because the wallpaper was forest themed and he thought he was still in the woods. Verne Gagne hiptossing a guy to death is tragic, but understandable within the realm of degenerative mental disorders. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nature Boy Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Chris Benoit is the only pro wrestler to have murdered himself and his family and we're talking about an industry where hundreds of guys have gone through the ringer, gotten concussed and somehow still managed to not murder people. If concussions made you a murderer without some other mitigating factor then Mick Foley should have become Charles Manson by now. I'll never buy that the concussions made Benoit do it. I feel like Benoit's death should've been the start of the end of the MOVEZ~! movement. We need smart psychology in wrestling and I do feel like WWE is moving back to that. When you look at the older generations, the pre-80s generation, a lot of those guys are still alive and functioning well. Men like Bruno Sammartino, Harley Race, Pedro Morales and Dory Funk are still with us. For me Benoit's death symbolized a need to work smarter and have a lot less drug use in wrestling. Watching Starrcade 83 is honestly a lot less sad than watching the 1980s WrestleManias. The guys on that card either died at an old age (Johnny Weaver, Jack Brisco and Wahoo McDaniel, because of a freak accident in the ring (Jay Youngblood) or because of something unrelated to the business (Rufus R. Jones). Hercules is really the only guy on the roster who died from steroids and being in the business and his run in the 1980s WWF was a mitigating factor there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTTW Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Chris Benoit is the only pro wrestler to have murdered himself and his family and we're talking about an industry where hundreds of guys have gone through the ringer, gotten concussed and somehow still managed to not murder people. If concussions made you a murderer without some other mitigating factor then Mick Foley should have become Charles Manson by now. I'll never buy that the concussions made Benoit do it. Some people can do drugs and not have a problem. Some people can't. I doubt the head injuries didn't contribute to his eventual end. And now you make me sad about Mick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nice Guy Eddie Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Foley was a Manson, Cactus Jack Manson. That's all I'm adding to this. I've been trying not to think about Benoit this week, but it's been next to impossible. The picture I have with him is going to remain in the desk drawer that it's been in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsey Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I've watched one Benoit match since his death and it sort of crept up on me. 2003 Royal Rumble...put it on in the back ground, looked up and there was Benoit vs. Angle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Mann Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Someone mentioned following the story all night on DVDVR in absence of the social media that didn't quite exist yet. And it was one thing with Eddy: He died, it was sad and that was that. The Benoit was a 24 hour narrative in "Wait, it gets worse..." Because there's were hours-long gaps between each main checkpoint Unless you were there, it's hard to explain. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Ray Von Erich Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I don't really have a problem watching Benoit matches, and never really have. Maybe something in me is broken, but I feel like it's enjoying something from before he was a murderer, not after, and I'm not directly supporting the man but the craft. I completely understand the aversion to his stuff, but he was never a big hero of mine despite recognizing how good he was. I will say that I haven't watched his DVD set since. It was once of my favorites as literally every match on it is incredible. But I haven't put in even the matches disc because I feel like I would want to watch the doc, which is well made, and I just haven't been into having that sort of an eerie experience. There's something about a profile painting him in a positive light for two hours that is different from watching his matches. I don't know. It's an interesting issue. I remember I ordered that Vengeance: Night of Champions show, which was a big deal because I was home from college for the summer and my folks agreed to pay for it to be nice. I thought it was a huge deal with all the titles defended, and I was excited to see Punk wrestle Benoit. I remember spending almost the next 48 hours glued to the Board reading updates. When it's good, this is a great place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kennedy Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I was among the biggest Benoit fans out there but even I have hard time believing that concussions where the mitigating factor in the murders. If this guy's brain was as badly damaged as people have said, how did he function for so long wrestling, going from town to town, dealing with airlines, hotels, cutting scripted promo's on TV etc, etc... I would have at some point liked to have an excuse for my wrestling hero committing the crimes that he did but that part I have never been able to get my head around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTTW Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 If this guy's brain was as badly damaged as people have said, how did he function for so long wrestling, going from town to town, dealing with airlines, hotels, cutting scripted promo's on TV etc, etc... I would have at some point liked to have an excuse for my wrestling hero committing the crimes that he did but that part I have never been able to get my head around. It's like a hair tie, it works great for a while and then one day it just snaps and it's no longer functional. I really no longer have any real feelings on the Benoit thing. I've experienced so much other screwed up stuff in my personal and professional life, that some guy on tv who I never met doing a horrendous act really doesn't impact me. "Heros" being let downs is old hat at this point. I think the murder-suicide was when wrestling just stopped being kinda fun for me and all I could think about was how dumb what some wrestlers do is. The more I think about it, the sadder it makes me for guys like Foley and Ziggler. My love of deathmatches is gone now too and I don't think it was Benoit, I think it is just age. I'm no longer in my 20's and life seams like an almost more serious affair now that I'm still trying my best to laugh at. To spend time focusing on one crazy act by some guy I only know through an illuminated picture box is just not on my priorities list.....and yet talking about him online is.....it's weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyMax46 Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Guys, can we move the discussion to something else please? We're killing the territory here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DouglasC Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Here. If this doesn't at least make you smile, nothing will. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I'm really curious how over Balor will be. Traditionally, doesn't WWE draw a different group of people than NJPW in Japan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdangerously Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I'm leaning towards Owens retaining in Japan. With Itami and Zayn injured, they could still use him on the roster in NXT. And since he lives in Florida, it wouldn't be that much trouble to have him pop in once a month for the TV tapings. They're a little then on heels in NXT anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Austin Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I'm sure I've talked a little about this before, but I knew Chris Benoit a bit. I'm from Fayette County, GA, which is where Benoit settled with Nancy. I had a few dozen interactions with him, and knew Daniel and Nancy fairly well. Chris was always friendly, if a bit standoffish. I knew to steer clear if it was just Daniel and he, as he cherished that time. There is an Italian restaurant in PTC that is to Olive Garden what the fast food restaurant in COMING TO AMERICA is to McDonalds, and my family and I would always see Chris w Nancy and/or Daniel there on sundays. We'd nod. I'd see him at the gym a lot. I never knew what a maniac the guy really was until one time when he was working on the bench press and he grabbed me and my workout partner by the collars and stuck each of us on one side of the bar. Never said a word. Just grunted. When he'd repped whatever insane amount was on that bar 6-8 times, he racked it, got up and shook each of our hands. Never said a word. I remember in the weeks leading up to the 2004 Royal Rumble, having an inkling he might win because the guy was doing 80 minutes at a clip on the treadmill at a pace between jogging and sprinting. Chris Benoit was always a terrifyingly intense human being. It doesn't take much for me to imagine that the repeated concussions turned a human being that was already maybe a little menacing into what he became. Was it the Italian Oven next to the Publix? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I'm really curious how over Balor will be. Traditionally, doesn't WWE draw a different group of people than NJPW in Japan? There's still a decent amount of fans who follow puro there. There was always reactions when Jericho would antagonize one of the visiting legends in the front row, like Mutoh or Takayama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinit Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Watching the Survivor Series 2014 main event...what an opportunity lost to perfectly end The Authority and "make" Ziggler. Seriously. Fuck. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSmUgly Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Holy false equivalence, Batman.I don't think I was shooting for equivalence, except that they were both murders in different senses of the word. Maybe I phrased my statement incorrectly, with "counterpoint". But I balked on "juxtaposition;" maybe that was the right word after all. I apologize for being glib. I do think that even if you used the word "juxtapose," there's personally not much value in doing so for me in this case. Verne Gagne did not fit the profile of a family annihilator or have documented examples of anti-social behavior leading up to that hiptoss incident, even if one wants to try to draw a comparison between brain health. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nate Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Holy false equivalence, Batman.I don't think I was shooting for equivalence, except that they were both murders in different senses of the word. Maybe I phrased my statement incorrectly, with "counterpoint". But I balked on "juxtaposition;" maybe that was the right word after all. I apologize for being glib. I do think that even if you used the word "juxtapose," there's personally not much value in doing so for me in this case. Verne Gagne did not fit the profile of a family annihilator or have documented examples of anti-social behavior leading up to that hiptoss incident, even if one wants to try to draw a comparison between brain health. That's a-ok; I was highly amused by the reply, legit lol'd. Plus, I don't get all rattled by differences of opinion. I was just interested in really just contextualizing both events (have been for a while), and the anniversary gave me an opportunity. Seriously, for good or ill, I love this online place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 About the earlier discussion, Andre main evented four pay per views.Wrestlemania 3Survivor Series 87Wrestlemania 4Summerslam 88 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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