December 2023 Wrestling Talk

[AxB]

This is the DVDVR. Our lists are traditionally top 500s.

[Elsalvajeloco]

4 hours ago, AxB said:

That seems to be a theme across quite a few sports. The best managers/ coaches tend to have been less than great as players, the best players never seem to work out as top managers.

I did put a Miracle Gen vs Haven match in the 2023 match thread, just so anyone who wants can see who I'm talking about.

A few sports? A whole variety sports. "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach."

And Roma is at least a very notable wrestler. Most of the best trainers were not exactly world champions or world champion caliber guys. You can cherry pick and find a Harley Race or Thesz or Kowalski. However, a good majority of guys were broken in by career enhancement talent or guys who never made it past the midcard. Or they were notable tag team wrestlers like Roma (see Afa). 

Lance Storm has trained a shitload of (notable) people since retiring. Roma and Storm are pretty much same same in terms of career.

 

[AxB]

You get the odd exceptions. Mediocre players who go on to be mediocre managers. But the obvious cases I can think of as great players who became great managers, had their playing careers cut short due to injury.

[Octopus]

1 hour ago, AxB said:

This is the DVDVR. Our lists are traditionally top 500s.

Alright, 450 more to go

[Elsalvajeloco]

17 minutes ago, Octopus said:

Alright, 450 more to go

If you list every WCW BattleBowl tag match, that will probably knock out 90 matches right there.

[Octopus]

The glory of @Dolfan in NYC making me a forum category “Octo500” for my eventual list reveal will be all the motivation I need. 

[Curt McGirt]

1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

You can cherry pick and find a Harley Race or Thesz or Kowalski

And most of those guys were probably like Shawn Michaels and only showed up to cash the checks while their 2nd in command did the training (see: Danielson, Bryan). 

[Dolfan in NYC]

46 minutes ago, Octopus said:

The glory of @Dolfan in NYC making me a forum category “Octo500” for my eventual list reveal will be all the motivation I need. 

I'll get right on that.

[Elsalvajeloco]

36 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

And most of those guys were probably like Shawn Michaels and only showed up to cash the checks while their 2nd in command did the training (see: Danielson, Bryan). 

Even if they didn't, people have to think about the sheer number of pro wrestlers (those who barely qualify and those who actually have a Cagematch profile) out there. There is a very good chance the trainee or multiple trainees exceeded the popularity of the actual trainer or at the very least got to one of more notable promotions across the world. I mean unless it's like Verne holding camps (he gets credit for training Flair, Steamboat, Curt Hennig, Ken Patera, etc.), you don't get many guys of a certain statue training the most well known wrestlers. The Minnesota/Midwest guys who didn't pass or go through Verne's camp probably got trained by Eddie Sharkey. 

[Cobra Commander]

17 hours ago, AxB said:

Paul Roma trained The Miracle Generation and The Haven, two of the best young tag teams in the indies just now.

would a Paul Roma tag team of two Italians be called the Roman Empire?

[zendragon]

80

[NikoBaltimore]

It's been three years, you know what that means.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSRgZ_jZoK0

[Cobra Commander]

10 hours ago, Cobra Commander said:

would a Paul Roma tag team of two Italians be called the Roman Empire?

Come to think of it… shouldn’t a Paul Roma/Hercules tag team have been called The Roman Empire because Roma is named Roma and Hercules is the name of a famous ancient Roman even if Hercules Hernandez is a Spaniard Hispanic (IIRC. He might be a Tampa Cuban)

They probably had Power And Glory in mind for some tag team and they finally found their team for the name.

[Robert S]

35 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

Come to think of it… shouldn’t a Paul Roma/Hercules tag team have been called The Roman Empire because Roma is named Roma and Hercules is the name of a famous ancient Roman even if Hercules Hernandez is a Spaniard Hispanic (IIRC. He might be a Tampa Cuban)

They probably had Power And Glory in mind for some tag team and they finally found their team for the name.

Well, Hercules is the Roman name of a figure of Greek mythology. So they were more Greco-Roman than simply Roman.

[SovietShooter]

On 12/2/2023 at 3:21 PM, Cobra Commander said:

Just got the foreign object idea of someone responding to being squeezed off due to lack of time walking out with a Flava Flav clock "to keep track of time", only for them to hit opponents with that clock if they're really desperate to win a match.

IMHO, that is a money idea.

[Infinit]

7 hours ago, SovietShooter said:

IMHO, that is a money idea.

Whoa...bro you haven't been here for a few years, no? Welcome back!

[Casey]

21 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

And most of those guys were probably like Shawn Michaels and only showed up to cash the checks while their 2nd in command did the training (see: Danielson, Bryan). 

I’m pretty sure Rudy Gonzalez was Shawn’s 2nd in command - not the fresh outta high school Bryan Danielson.

[SovietShooter]

1 hour ago, Infinit said:

Whoa...bro you haven't been here for a few years, no? Welcome back!

I've been lurking on occasion. More recently to be sure. 

I had to completely disassociate with all things wrestling for mental health reasons back in 2012ish.  I've been slowly adding it back into my life over the last few years.

[Elsalvajeloco]

6 minutes ago, Casey said:

I’m pretty sure Rudy Gonzalez was Shawn’s 2nd in command - not the fresh outta high school Bryan Danielson.

I think Curt means Rudy trained Danielson as opposed to Shawn.

[Curt McGirt]

1 hour ago, Casey said:

I’m pretty sure Rudy Gonzalez was Shawn’s 2nd in command - not the fresh outta high school Bryan Danielson.

That's what I meant. Rudy taught, Danielson learned from him, Michaels picked up the checks. (I couldn't remember Rudy's name, thank you for y'all picking that up for me. And I don't fault Casey at all for misunderstanding)

Edited December 27, 2023 by Curt McGirt

[Ramo2653]

On 12/24/2023 at 10:11 PM, Cobra Commander said:

When it comes to “Texas Death Match rules that aren’t used anymore”, I guess “losing falls will cost you money” is a good answer to “why not lose falls to gain an advantage”

 

Wait, so it was get a pinfall, 30 second rest period and if your opponent didn't answer a 10 second count after that, you won? That's insane and I'd love to see that gimmick used again to see what kind of finish you'd use.

[AxB]

WCW did that with Cactus vs Vader. Only with a 60 second rest period. The finish was bullshit though.

[The Natural]

On 12/26/2023 at 2:04 PM, NikoBaltimore said:

It's been three years, you know what that means.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSRgZ_jZoK0

Luke Harper became an immediate favourite of mine in 2013. I attended four WWE house shows from April 2015 to November 2016 to see if he'd be there. On the third show he was but injured his knee a few weeks ago. Gutted I wasn't able to see him live. I still watch the Being the Elite skits with Mr. Brodie Lee and the Dark Order. Still hilarious. The tribute show was perfect. I hesitated long and hard about using perfect in such a sad context as I'm an ideal world, it never would have existed.

[Cobra Commander]

14 hours ago, Ramo2653 said:

Wait, so it was get a pinfall, 30 second rest period and if your opponent didn't answer a 10 second count after that, you won? That's insane and I'd love to see that gimmick used again to see what kind of finish you'd use.

guessing Amarillo didn't use seconds ala Lucha, but I could see a beaten heel with is seconds trying to nurse him back to life, unable to get to his feet after the rest period

could also see a finish where the beaten heel bails out during the rest period and is decided to be unable to continue because they didn't want to get their ass beat anymore

but yeah, something akin to being out on your stool in boxing and not answering the bell

[Technico Support]

On 12/25/2023 at 4:47 PM, AxB said:

That seems to be a theme across quite a few sports. The best managers/ coaches tend to have been less than great as players, the best players never seem to work out as top managers.

 

On 12/25/2023 at 9:41 PM, Elsalvajeloco said:

A few sports? A whole variety sports. "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach."

And Roma is at least a very notable wrestler. Most of the best trainers were not exactly world champions or world champion caliber guys. You can cherry pick and find a Harley Race or Thesz or Kowalski. However, a good majority of guys were broken in by career enhancement talent or guys who never made it past the midcard. Or they were notable tag team wrestlers like Roma (see Afa). 

Lance Storm has trained a shitload of (notable) people since retiring. Roma and Storm are pretty much same same in terms of career.

 

On the opposite side, Ric Flair only trained one guy (or did he also train David?).