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Posted
58 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

"I'm not saying he should be on the gas, I just want a 40 year old man to put on 25 lbs of muscle."

He's 33 and clearly has room to put on natural muscle but alright.

Posted

Adam Cole is fine as is. Jesus Christ the amount hand wringing over his size takes me back to the arguments that CM Punk or Bryan Danielson wouldn't be credible opponents for Brock and lo and behold they both got very good matches out of Brock.

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Posted

So fucking glad to see Kris Statlander back 😭😭😭. Loving how jacked she looks. I'm a huge Aliyah fan so the whole "More than a Woman" sings to me. Stiff, hard hitting, competitive match vs Nyla Rose. You can tell they love working with each other. Didn't like that she set that 450 up on Nyla with a simple jawbreaker though. Oh well! 450!!! 

I hated the Mixed Tag main event. Adam Cole will probably never win me over, but he was the least annoying thing about this match for me. Jericho was laying into his shit and Cole made it look good. I get why the AEW audience embraces Adam Cole, but I really hope his position on the card plateaus where he is now.

Britt Baker on the other hand is the most awkward, unathletic looking female wrestler on the roster. Her timing just always seems to be off. Sloppy offense. That splash off the top looked horrible. She nearly knocked herself out on that rampage ddt. Working with Saraya did not help. 

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Posted

Britt was doing so well for awhile and then fucked up her back. Even with the time off to second Hayter, I think she's still working hurt and it's not doing her any favors. I get TK probably wants her on TV and I'm sure she wants to be on TV, but go and get healed up and get back to where you were when you were the champion. Sometimes it looks like she's moving at half speed and she's working overly cautious, which makes her movements and moves and selling look weird.

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Posted

I know that any promotor admitting something isn't working is hard, and while TK has done it a few times before and pulled the plug early on something (the original Dark Order, when Matt Hardy tried being "broken") he needs to do it more often. Saraya as an in-ring wrestler isn't working. I think the Outcasts thing is ok and if she slid into just being a manager and doing six person tags, but she just isn't a good wrestler anymore and they need to not put her in those positions, especially in the main event. Britt also looks a bit rough but I think she can rebound, Saraya I'm afraid just is what she is at this point.

Overall I enjoyed the show, a good mixture of quality promos and in-ring action. So happy to see Kris back, she's great.

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Posted

It's interesting that someone who grew up in wrestling like Saraya did would looks so uncomfortable and lost in the ring so often.

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Posted

I thought Trent was the MVP of the 3 way, bumping around and making everybody's offense look great when he was clearly there to eat a pin.  He's an incredible utility player.  I appreciate Big Bill's commitment to wrestling in Kirkland jeans and Timbs.  

Hitting somebody with a roll of quarters is an incredibly underused gimmick.  

Kris Statlander and Nyla Rose both rule.  My wife popped incredibly hard for her using her knee braces as weapons.

I was a little iffy about the Takeshita turn but him cutting a heel promo in Japanese in that swank jacket while the boos rained down was an incredible moment.  

The mixed tag wasn't good but had some moments, such as Jericho selling the mandible claw like a vulcan nerve pinch.  Jericho has dropped two straight and (relatively) clean to Cole so I'm not excited to see them continue to fuck around with this for another couple of months.

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Posted (edited)

I'm no Adam Cole fan but he does come across as a nice guy and that counts the most. I'd never wish injury on someone either when Cole was battling the concussion issues. Fair play to him coming back to it.

Edited by The Natural
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Posted
2 hours ago, chriskbrown50 said:

I have read all about Adam Cole, the love and the hate. Admittedly did not watch much of his NXT stuff.  His ring work to me is very good - the Panama finisher is interesting but not that believable.  Mic work is very good, and great entrance.  Seems like a genuinely good person.  

But I come back to old JR saying - it's a body business.  Seriously he just looks like a teenage boy to me.  His lack (complete lack) of muscular build is really noticeable.  Not saying he needs to hit the 'riods but he looks more like a long distance runner than a wrestler.  

The Mulkeys back in JCP - they were these skinny, pale white kids.  And they just got killed.  Which was what you expected Cole looks more like a Mulkey than a modern-day Michaels. 

Careful. Some folks here get VERY in their feels when you bring up that wrestlers should look like wrestlers. That doesn’t matter anymore, apparently.

Posted
58 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Adam Cole is fine as is. Jesus Christ the amount hand wringing over his size takes me back to the arguments that CM Punk or Bryan Danielson wouldn't be credible opponents for Brock and lo and behold they both got very good matches out of Brock.

Good matches for the sake of good matches aren’t the point. Those matches made sense because of how Dragon & Punk attacked Brock. Adam Cole has no idea how to work to his size.

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Posted
50 minutes ago, Kevin Wilson said:

I know that any promotor admitting something isn't working is hard, and while TK has done it a few times before and pulled the plug early on something (the original Dark Order, when Matt Hardy tried being "broken") he needs to do it more often. Saraya as an in-ring wrestler isn't working. I think the Outcasts thing is ok and if she slid into just being a manager and doing six person tags, but she just isn't a good wrestler anymore and they need to not put her in those positions, especially in the main event. Britt also looks a bit rough but I think she can rebound, Saraya I'm afraid just is what she is at this point.

Overall I enjoyed the show, a good mixture of quality promos and in-ring action. So happy to see Kris back, she's great.

Saraya as a modern day PS Hayes would be sweet as.

Posted
1 hour ago, John E. Dynamite said:

He's 33 and clearly has room to put on natural muscle but alright.

Ah, thanks - I was admittedly being hyperbolic but I did think he was closer to 38

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Craig H said:

Adam Cole is fine as is. Jesus Christ the amount hand wringing over his size takes me back to the arguments that CM Punk or Bryan Danielson wouldn't be credible opponents for Brock and lo and behold they both got very good matches out of Brock.

No you’re supposed to crap on Cole, The Bucks, and Kenny because they’re not “legit tough guys like Mox”. Never mind Mox’s idea of being tough is sticking a razor blade in his forehead because he’s not the brightest bulb in the bunch, but hey. 

I’m with you that not every main event guy needs to have the same body type or be one of only two extremes (either over developed due to roids or being super fat like back in Hogans days on top). 

Plus while I love Darby I think it’s much easier to see why Adam Cole gets the bigger push (in ring is close to equal, and Cole is miles ahead on charisma and mic skill). Yet Darby gets a free pass like he’s the second coming or something. 

Not to mention I think the detractors of Cole also love Wheeler Yuta who has negative charisma, and imo wouldn’t draw a crowd if he were presented as a main event guy. Even last night I thought he was the worst part of the six man tag.

Edited by LF2
Posted
3 hours ago, Casey said:

I don’t mind either way but it’s weird that, on the same show, we had Cole against Jericho and Darby/OC against the Gates of Agony and only one match gets the “look at this dude’s body, he can’t credibly face off against this other guy who is more jacked”.

.....and why do you think that is?

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Posted

Cole's issue isn't his size or build, it's that his moveset and offense is only really good at working as a face underneath with comeback spots and is awful in a heel control style, while he's really good at doing a heel personality and seemingly uncomfortable working face, despite that outside of the ring he's a really nice guy (by all accounts).  His skillsets don't align at all.

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Posted (edited)

Cole's a tough one. I don't entirely get what he is in the ring as an offensive force. He's kind of a Shawn Michaels clone, which means some athletic moves, some strikes, some vaguely technical wrestling, and a suplex or two if he can pull it off, with the very worst finisher in the history of wrestling, and a super finisher with the knee to the back of the head. I thought him becoming a babyface would solve his problems, but now I'm less sure.

There are plenty of Shawn Michaels clones/evolutions in AEW and he's not close to the top of the list of them in-ring. People brought up Cassidy and Darby but both of them have opportunistic offense. Cassidy lures people in and his stuff (stundog/flip around ddt/jumping ddt/orange punch/even the beach break) is a lot about using his opponents' strength/momentum against them. Darby's much more about throwing his own body at people, with a few things which don't involve strength of his own (code red, reverse ddt, last rights, etc.). A mid-carder Cole could sell a ton and have a lot of opportunistic roll ups or well-timed crafty moves, but that really does move him into Darby and Cassidy's "space"

I might put him most like Ricky Starks, who has some high impact stuff, but really is carried by his charisma and his selling. If there is a brand split, it's probably best to keep the two of them on separate brands. Cole is too well-pushed and too deep into his career to have to figure out just who he is in-ring now, but that's kind of where we are. Some of that is being a heel for years and years and being a face for the first time, and not out of some sort of crowd-driven organic turn, either. All I know is that he has to figure it out quickly.

Edited by Matt D
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Posted
2 minutes ago, Raziel said:

Cole's issue isn't his size or build, it's that his moveset and offense is only really good at working as a face underneath with comeback spots and is awful in a heel control style, while he's really good at doing a heel personality and seemingly uncomfortable working face, despite that outside of the ring he's a really nice guy (by all accounts).  His skillsets don't align at all.

I think this is a big part of it for me personally. His offence is largely awful both in terms of moveset and the execution of it. He can bump and sell and is charismatic enough that he can be a fun punching bag - but that doesn't lend itself to the 30 minute workrate forced classic style him and a lot of his peers embrace. My favourite Cole matches have always been the ones where he's spent 90% of them getting splattered all over the place, but they're few and far between.

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Posted
20 minutes ago, Matt D said:

There are plenty of Shawn Michaels clones/evolutions in AEW and he's not close to the top of the list of them in-ring.

Hangman is the closest to Michaels in size and ability

Cole billing himself as 6'0 when he's clearly much, much shorter than Hangman who's legit 6'0 doesn't help things

maxresdefault.jpg

 

 

Posted
5 minutes ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

Hangman is the closest to Michaels in size and ability

 

There's deflation, right?

Hangman portrays himself in ring like this:

WWC: Scott Hall Interview (1991)

but he's not nearly as big of course.

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Posted
48 minutes ago, LF2 said:

No you’re supposed to crap on Cole, The Bucks, and Kenny because they’re not “legit tough guys like Mox”. Never mind Mox’s idea of being tough is sticking a razor blade in his forehead because he’s not the brightest bulb in the bunch, but hey. 

I’m with you that not every main event guy needs to have the same body type or be one of only two extremes (either over developed due to roids or being super fat like back in Hogans days on top). 

Plus while I love Darby I think it’s much easier to see why Adam Cole gets the bigger push (in ring is close to equal, and Cole is miles ahead on charisma and mic skill). Yet Darby gets a free pass like he’s the second coming or something. 

Not to mention I think the detractors of Cole also love Wheeler Yuta who has negative charisma, and imo wouldn’t draw a crowd if he were presented as a main event guy. Even last night I thought he was the worst part of the six man tag.

Speaking of dim bulbs, this is such an asinine oversimplification that it almost made me laugh. Not that I expect different from you, but I've got the day off, so let's get into it.

My aversion to Omega is mostly personal taste. I don't understand the "fighting spirit" Tappy Gilmore fireups and goofy faces, but it was pointed out to me that much of that is rooted in his work in Japan. I'm not nearly familiar enough with that style to comment intelligently. With him, I at least grasp why the people that like him like him. He's not for me, and I thought the company stagnated when he was the champion, but I at least understand why people enjoy him.

With the Bucks, I fundamentally disagree with how they present pro wrestling. The lack of selling, total absence of psychology, and inability to tell a story within the single match framework are glaringly obvious. I don't want to watch hours of youtube content to understand why it's important that Nick is kicking with his left leg instead of his right. The fact that they look like the Mulkeys is just an added bonus. Their blatant disregard of suspension of disbelief is borderline reprehensible. I know wrestling is a work in the same way I know Christian Bale isn't really Batman. That doesn't mean it wouldn't ruin my enjoyment of The Dark Knight if Heath Ledger winked into the camera and exclaimed "look how good at being the bad guy I am!" I know magicians aren't really sawing women in half. That doesn't mean I want to be told that it's an illusion as it's being performed. 

Adam Cole's appeal baffles me. It's as though 8 years or so ago a certain segment of the audience just decided "this guy is a star" and began screaming it from whatever hilltop would have them. His ring work is fine as long as his opponent shares his same philosophy as to how wrestling should be presented. When he's in the ring with bigger or more athletic opponents, he's exposed badly. Just three years ago he was the weakest of 8 in the Imperium/UE banger by far. I have no use for KOR either, but I at least believed he belonged in the ring with an absolute murder machine like WALTER. Cole's shitty punches and one note "charisma" dragged down what was otherwise a classic. Go back and watch that match again and tell me he isn't by far the weakest link. I also dispute that he's a good promo, in that I don't believe a word he saysm and I don't believe he believes a word he says. It takes more than "big boy voice" to cut a good promo. He sounds like when my friends and I were in middle school and would cut promos into a camcorder. We constantly straddled the line between "we are the toughest men in the world" and "we can't swear because our parents might see this and I can't lose my SNES when I'm this close to beating Donkey Kong Country." I fucks with that game. Where was I? Oh yeah, Adam Cole being the drizzling taco shits. He's glaringly, alarmingly overrated. Roderick Strong, on his first night in AEW, had an absolute banger with Chris Jericho that made both guys look like threats and advanced a story. Adam Cole, with the same opponent and general parameters, had a match so bad it's cited as a primary reason why many folks think this was AEW's worst pay per view to date. But you'll make excuses, because that's what Adam Cole marks do.

You cited Wheeler Yuta. The year-long story arc he's presented, going from "eating pins for Chuck and OC" to "earned the respect of three of the five best wrestlers alive" is as or more compelling than anything Adam Cole has done, and Yuta has done it without being allowed to hemmorhage viewers with his one note "story time with Adam Cole" dogshit promo and matches that make zero sense multiple times over the last year. You not liking it doesn't make it less true. Go back and watch Blood and Guts. While Claudio is in the ring against two JAS members, the crowd isn't chanting for Mox or Kingston. They're chanting "Wheeler Yuta." All those stars in and around the ring and that rabid, sellout Detroit crowd is chanting for the guy with "negative charisma." 

You talked in another post about the matches Danielson and Punk had with Lesnar. And you're right, those matches were great. Balor and Styles had fantastic matches with Lesnar too. So, if Adam Cole is what you say he is, why was he never put in that spot? Why was he never called up to a show that a network was paying for? It's because for as wrong as WWE often is, they absolutely knew what they had with Adam Cole; a (metaphorical) big fish in a small pond. While Styles and Danielson were carrying titles on actual tv shows, Cole was getting his teeth kicked in by Dusty's kids every week. Because he doesn't draw eyes. He isn't a star, and nothing he's done in AEW or nxt has done anything to make the case that he is. 

 

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Posted
1 hour ago, just drew said:

Careful. Some folks here get VERY in their feels when you bring up that wrestlers should look like wrestlers. That doesn’t matter anymore, apparently.

Just to be clear I was only busting chops - I do get both sides of the coin on this one. Myself, my personal preference has always been toward the Bossman, Vader, Cactus-looking guys moreso than the juice heads or cruisers, but everyone's got their place and that's what makes this all so great (insert tired buffet analogy here).

Personally speaking in all seriousness, it's difficult for me to shit on a guy like Cole when so many of my formative years were spent here and elsewhere having similar debates on everyone from Rey to Eddy to Jericho to Malenko to Kid Kash to Syxx to Jamie Knoble to Danielson, I mean, insert any supposed under-sized name

  • Like 3
Posted

One thing Cole has going for him is that the people that like him, really like him. This was before he was on UUDD, whether through ROH or PWG or BTE or maybe his own streaming he seemed to get very passionate fans. Small sample size, but a few instagram pages I follow of people that are also wrestling fans share a bunch of pictures of him and cite him as their favorite.

 I’ve brought this up before and I’m sorry if I’m misremembering where specifically I heard it. I believe on AEW Unrestricted Cole was on and he was talking about Shawn Michaels being a mentor and really teaching him to understand ring psychology. I’m sure there is more he’d have to offer on the subject, but what he talked about was very much treating a match like a rollercoaster. Also to lay down longer when he is selling to increase fan investment. I’d be interested to hear more of his thoughts and what he learned from his wrestling dad.

I think he has loads of charisma. With the right storyline or feud we could see some really neat promos. Before all the injuries and shenanigans, I thought an Elite vs Ultra Elite or whatever would have been cool. 

I’m ignorant enough on his work to not be able to reference pre-AEW greatness or weakness. Off what I have seen, I guess I’m 50-50. I think he gets a lot of love from some circles and distain from others. Not an Octopus Guy and I’m not sure he’ll fully win me over but could be an enjoyable character in the wild world of wrestling. He comes across as a kind guy so I’ll always be pulling for him to stay healthy and do cool things.

For the body talk, I think he is fine. Handsome face, a real cutie. I understand the criticism, but I will say his pointy knees are a plus and not a negative. Let those razor sharp bad boys get the back of your head and that should be protected like a Jackhammer. 
——-

Jesus! I was typing this out and say @just drew posted so I thought I’d read before posting my casual indifference but a nice guy post. Hot dang, My dude Drew has the day off and I’m not going to disagree with him today. *fearfully shuffles papers* Adam Cole looks like if a pale Daschshund with  greasy long hair stood up on his hind legs and was bad at video games. I bet he tips waitresses poorly and talks too much about his collection of beer shirts but only drinks pilsners. 
Nothing to see here bud, just casually backing away quietly.

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Posted

Can’t be bothered to quote and reply directly, but “Danielson is a better me than I was” was the gist of Regal’s first AEW promo. 
 

Kris Statlander’s indie music was More Than a Woman by the Bee Gees, not the Aaliyah song of same title.

The wrestler Adam Cole should be trying to emulate is Christian Cage. Similar body types, similar levels of athleticism, similarly undersized for their eras.

  • Like 5
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Octopus said:

Small sample size, but a few instagram pages I follow of people that are also wrestling fans share a bunch of pictures of him and cite him as their favorite.

Totally anecdotal, but my better half (who didn't grow up a fan, but has vague childhood memories of her father laughing at the mere sight of Rikishi in his thong) became a fan, obviously, from being stuck with me - for whatever reason, she also super gravitated toward Cole. Not only finds him to be a real cutie, but actually thinks the Panama Sunrise is like, a Kings Road death finisher, and will shout at the TV that it's Coles move whenever anyone else pulls out a Code Red/Canadian variation (which is early, and often). As we were in the middle of this conversation today, she actually coincidentally sent me one of those Google Photo memories of us standing with the ring and arena jumbotron behind us while Cole celebrated with the title at Takeover XXV - shit eating grin on her face (four years ago today, apparently - COVID has really fucked with my sense of time).

Whether you don't like his work, don't like his physique, don't think his work is commensurate with his physique, whatever it is, one absolutely cannot deny that there is something incredible appealing about him that people apparently really tend to gravitate toward. It's simply a matter of translating that into eyeballs and dollars

Edit: didn't want to back to back post again, but I gotta say it: @AxB you're on the money with that one - id argue EVERY wrestler should try to rip off Christian more

Edited by Zakk_Sabbath
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Posted
4 minutes ago, AxB said:

Kris Statlander’s indie music was More Than a Woman by the Bee Gees, not the Aaliyah song of same title.

Tony needs to license this. At this for a PPV.

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