AEW TV - 10/30 - 11/5/2024 - Sweet Home Aminata

[Gorman]

6 hours ago, Shartnado said:

 

Darby coming back and good guys sending Moxley Crew packing was nice.

 

I love it!

[HarryArchieGus]

5 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

But the posts you generally make don't hold a lot of weight with me because you cover for everything they do and kind of just blame the people disliking it for not understanding the greatness being displayed in front of them. You don't have a whole lot of credibility in the objectivity category.

Thanks for providing your objectivity category credibility rating. I do tend to like the product, but I'll pass on your banal attempt to further quarrel. Check the aggression. 
 

[NoFistsJustFlips]

True story I had to Google what banal meant. Sorry next time I'll just drop a gif of Rick Martel's perfume to describe your disposition lol.

[Technico Support]

Pro tip: I just recently learned it’s pronounced “buh-NALL.”  I used to think it rhymed with “anal.”

[Shartnado]

9 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

Pro tip: I just recently learned it’s pronounced “buh-NALL.”  I used to think it rhymed with “anal.”

Were you using the word often in conversations? Just to gauge at level of possible awkwardness that followed afterwards...

[JLowe]

7 hours ago, StuntmanCrowley said:

Snagged tickets for my daughter and I to go to Collision in Philly Saturday night off of gametime.  70 bucks for 2 incluing the fees, i couldn't pass that up, especially when she gets to see a womans title match.  

My wife and I might go too, or just me if she’s not feeling up to it. I’ve never been to a Collision and the idea of seeing ROH matches is appealing, as are the three announced Collision matches (and probably Outrunners).

[JLowe]

6 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

Well, it's probably safer than tanning booths. I also wonder if these guys secretly aren't Kyle O' Reilly pale 

If you watch the backstage interview, look at his lower neck/upper chest area and his hands.

[HarryArchieGus]

A lot to enjoy on a Thursday morning before work. I really liked the OC promo starting by cutting off the BCC promo package. Somewhat out of his character element, I thought Orange did well. Cole v Matthews was a fun opener. I liked the storytelling, but it was certainly a lot. Matthews and Malakai Black are far too over to be used as sparingly as they are. Tho, I assume Malakai is very particular who he'll lose to. The MJF watching on clip from his home/hotel was ridiculous. The Private Party/Daniels promo served a good purpose. The post match Cole promo was well delivered, but I'm not sure this is how you get a babyface over? The Kyle Fletcher promo was fine, but this insistence on heels calling out top level draws who are not in the building is entirely the wrong kind of heat. Mark Davis, not known for his mic work, did a nice job. The new cut is tight. The Hangman promo was pretty strong. I liked the BCC segment. They've been doing a nice job filming their entrances. The momentary turn on Yuta was a nice touch. I'd totally back the play of Darby v Claudio. The transition from this segment to the Bucks v Privates was on point. The match was a ton of fun. Great display of the Jacksons ability to build and deliver with any two guys. Total pros. I loved Okada sneaking out for the tombstone. As mentioned, I'm a bit wary of this title switch. I can't remember the last Quen/Kassidy match, not against the Bucks, that I actually liked. I find so many of their repetitive spots very weak. That said, I'm game to see how they do. Perhaps the titles and the shot of confidence can steer them in the right direction. The Ford/Hayter promo was okay. Hayter's a good talker and needs to be given more mic time. Ford did a good job even if the material is a bit needlessly melodramatic. I liked the Learning Tree promo. It seemed to indicate a ROHTV show is on the way. Did Meltzer really suggest, as Jericho said, that the ladder match with Briscoe was memorable? Or was that some heel creativity? I really liked the Jack Perry-Daniel Garcia confrontation. Great intensity and Jack really stooged for Danny. I was greatly amused by Cutler shredding documents. What's that about? My expectations are low of course, but I'm amused and curious. I ffwd passed Stat v Kamille. Maybe I'll go back. Kamille needs serious work/reps. The Stat babyface turn is still a big ugh. The Mark Briscoe promo wasn't one of his best, but it was fine. Sure, I'm into seeing the Conglomerates v Tree No DQ.  The Bucks/Daniels/Cutler/BCC segment was truly awful. Why on earth would Daniels be saying 'we need you' to the heel Bucks? Horrible, but not as bad as them setting up a camera angle that clearly shows Claudio not hammer Cutler's hand. That was embarrassing. Further, what kind of power does Daniels not have when Mox is uncaringly treating him like a nerd? EVP Daniels badly needs to be retired. Daniels' hammy delivery is bad, but the illogical creative is worse. The Swerve v Shelton main was good and solid. The MVP phone call was a bit silly, but a nice debut for Bobby Lashley. MVP's promo to close was on point. Very into this crew v Swerve. I've enjoyed this Benjamin singles run, but I'd like to see him find a tag partner. Lee Moriarty would be a helluva Charlie Haas. I also like the idea of suiting up AR Fox who, of course, has a history with Shane Strickland. The few qualms above certainly didn't get in the way of a rawkin pro wrestling show! I choose AEDubya over the nWo! 

Edited November 1 by HarryArchieGus

[DreamBroken]

With all the turns, returns, turns and turns back in the angle already, I hope there's no Kingdom turning on Cole in there too, though I could of course see it happening. I'd prefer that unit sticks together as they had already been at odds before and worked this angle to get on the same page in the first place. That and I'm interested in a potential Bennett/Taven babyface run for a change. 

[Technico Support]

2 hours ago, Shartnado said:

Were you using the word often in conversations? Just to gauge at level of possible awkwardness that followed afterwards...

Only once in a while, thankfully!

1 hour ago, JLowe said:

If you watch the backstage interview, look at his lower neck/upper chest area and his hands.

Oh lord yes.  He was pink between his fingers.  I know tans can make fat dudes and skinny dudes both look healthier in their own ways, but fuuuuuck, at least find a shade that actual humans can attain instead of defaulting to “tangerine” like “yep!  Nailed it!”

[EVA]

3 hours ago, Technico Support said:

Pro tip: I just recently learned it’s pronounced “buh-NALL.”  I used to think it rhymed with “anal.”

Actually, you weren’t wrong! “Bay-nal” WAS the generally accepted pronunciation for ages. The newer pronunciation that hews closer to the original French didn’t rise in popularity until relatively recent history (most likely because culture started getting uptight about the “anal” thing). Both pronunciations are phonetically acceptable! Keep saying bay-nal with pride.

[SovietShooter]

14 hours ago, Technico Support said:

Serious question for you…at what point do the historians and traditionalist types give the Bucks their due?  Aside from Meltzer, who has always been in the “wrestling changes” camp, I hear more stubborn dislike of the Bucks than I do credit for what they do.  Is it just a case where a certain crowd likes what they like — a more slowed down, traditional style — and thinks things outside that style are not as valid, and the Bucks have become the poster boys and favorite targets for that?  

I'm not Matt D, but I wanna take a crack at this.  I had something longer written out, but decided to cut it down to just this;

I think to some folks the Bucks represent some of the worst tendencies of the "super Indy" style -  "movez movez movez", with no psychology.  But, I think the Bucks are masters at laying out a tag match in a way that those big spots draw a maximum reaction from the fans. Instead of working a body part or building the entire match to a hot tag, they build their matches around the babyfaces breaking up pinfalls after high spots. In last night's match the whole match built to when Quen broke up the pinfall (after the OWA I believe) after crawling back to the ring after being tombstoned by Okada. That was the "hot tag". After that PP cleared house, and went home.

Most of the Bucks matches are built this way. They are masters at this, the same way the Andersons were masters at building a match around working an arm.  I can understand why some folks don't like it, but thet are really damn good at it. 

However, I think this style works best in a "big match" scenario, and kinda gets overexposed week-in-week-out.

[username]

So I have a question here. I am looking out at the wider online wrestling discourse and it seems like this was the worst received Adam Cole match in ages, even places that are usually positive towards him thought he was bad in the match with Buddy. The issue is that I think his matches generally aren't good so I can't really evaluate that, I'll go "yeah he looked bad" in even the most praised of his matches. My question for those who are less like that is was he really that much worse than usual, was the match layout that bad, or has large swaths of the wrestling fandom finally come around to the obviously correct perspective that he just ain't that good?

 

Also if there was an issue with the crowd deciding to back Buddy over him... Aleister is actually over and is up next week, that could get ugly.

(I swear, if MJF/Cole can somehow win worse feud/storyline back to back years I'll laugh endlessly).

[The Natural]

57 minutes ago, username said:

So I have a question here. I am looking out at the wider online wrestling discourse and it seems like this was the worst received Adam Cole match in ages, even places that are usually positive towards him thought he was bad in the match with Buddy. The issue is that I think his matches generally aren't good so I can't really evaluate that, I'll go "yeah he looked bad" in even the most praised of his matches. My question for those who are less like that is was he really that much worse than usual, was the match layout that bad, or has large swaths of the wrestling fandom finally come around to the obviously correct perspective that he just ain't that good?

 

Also if there was an issue with the crowd deciding to back Buddy over him... Aleister is actually over and is up next week, that could get ugly.

(I swear, if MJF/Cole can somehow win worse feud/storyline back to back years I'll laugh endlessly).

Adam Cole's had worse matches in AEW: Lights Out with Orange Cassidy on Dynamite, 26th January 2022 and especially the Chris Jericho Double or Nothing 2023 match. That's one of the worst matches in AEW history.

Edited November 1 by The Natural

[tbarrie]

I actually thought it was the best Adam Cole match I'd seen. (Which is admittedly a medium-height bar to pass at best. But still.) It told a fun story that we haven't really seen a thousand times. What was the problem with it?

[AxB]

The offical YouTube upload of the finish to Swerve vs Benjamin & the Lashley debut did over a Million views on YouTube in less than 24 hours (every other segment is at less than 500k, and some are at less than 100k. So it looks like this is a hit angle already.

[StuntmanCrowley]

6 hours ago, SovietShooter said:

I'm not Matt D, but I wanna take a crack at this.  I had something longer written out, but decided to cut it down to just this;

I think to some folks the Bucks represent some of the worst tendencies of the "super Indy" style -  "movez movez movez", with no psychology.  But, I think the Bucks are masters at laying out a tag match in a way that those big spots draw a maximum reaction from the fans. Instead of working a body part or building the entire match to a hot tag, they build their matches around the babyfaces breaking up pinfalls after high spots. In last night's match the whole match built to when Quen broke up the pinfall (after the OWA I believe) after crawling back to the ring after being tombstoned by Okada. That was the "hot tag". After that PP cleared house, and went home.

Most of the Bucks matches are built this way. They are masters at this, the same way the Andersons were masters at building a match around working an arm.  I can understand why some folks don't like it, but thet are really damn good at it. 

However, I think this style works best in a "big match" scenario, and kinda gets overexposed week-in-week-out.

Thank you for this summary because I think you really hit the nail on the head and verbalized what a lot of people can't in regards to the Bucks while still saying subjective.  I've long maintained that while I personally don't seek out the Bucks or their matches, i can't deny that they are part of one of the best AEW matches of all time (Omega/Page v The Bucks) and also apart of one of the best tag cage matches of all time(Luchas/Bucks) while in AEW.  I cant say I'm too familiar with them outside of AEW(fortunately or unfortunately), but I can see that they definitely deserve a lot of credit.  You brought up last night and honestly, i was lukewarm to the PP/Bucks title match and was watching it with a new AEW viewer.  That match took me(and her) from lukewarm on it, to biting on every nearfall and a legit moment of "holy shit" when Quen broke up the pinfall after the OWA.   

[Matt D]

10 hours ago, SovietShooter said:

I'm not Matt D

That’s not too different than what I said about the match itself. On their overall case, there are both pros and cons to their influence case in the way that they used irony and postmodernism in order to get over when they couldn’t get over any other way.

It certainly opened certain doors for certain wrestlers to succeed in certain ways that would’ve been impossible 10 years earlier. Personally, I think the cost is way too high. They busted down doors and glass ceilings that just happened to be load-bearing.

[S.K.o.S.]

Re the near falls in the Bucks vs Private Party: They did some important work in the weeks before the match too, to make it plausible that Private Party could break up. Stokely telling Kassidy that he was the real singles star, Private Party embracing before the match like it was going to be their last tag. Those near falls don't work as well if you already know who's winning the match. From a company that has done things in the (admittedly distant) past like announce a full tournament field and then telegraph who's winning by only having one guy cutting promos, this was a big improvement.

[Gordi the recovering AEW f]

20 hours ago, HarryArchieGus said:

Re: BCC and the nWo
This feels like a lazy rock critic comparison. The beats between this and the nWo are so completely different. Which contracted AEW wrestler in the BCC is invading the company? The angle is about Moxley wanting to take out complacent wrestlers happy to cash a check. A bully move would be to pick on the little ppl, and that's exactly what they're doing. There's no need for every locker room Horseman and Dungeon of Doom member to band together to stop what they're doing.

Between the tight beatdowns this Mox led crew has delivered (minus the inexcusably bad camera angle on the Cutler hammering) and the consistently excellent promos (including the terrific Nigel/Yuta sitdown), I'm a bit sad to see so many missing out on the fun.  

Look, I know I said I was stepping away from this discussion, but COME ON! They are hitting some VERY specific nWo beats VERY hard. 

The obvious example:

I was joking with a couple of my wrestling nerd friends about how my predictions for the next few weeks were 1) Claudio lawn darting a luchadore through the side of a truck and 2) Darby descending from the rafters during a mWo post-match beat-down...

 

I was JOKING. Like, haha, as if AEW would rip off those obvious nWo beats that blatantly

 

But both the guys I was joking about that with messaged me to let me know that they ACTUALLY, LITERALLY had Darby descending from the rafters during an mWo post-match beat down on Dynamite. 

So, please. Kiss the baby on this take.

 

I mean, if you want to argue that it's GOOD that AEW is hammering on nWo nostalgia beats then go right ahead. Obviously, from this thread, there are people who were DELIGHTED to see Darby doing the Sting thing. It's not for me, at all, but I don't begrudge anybody else really enjoying it. I appreciate the value of nostalgia in pro wrestling. I marked out HARD to see Tatsumi Fujinami live and in person a little while ago, for example.

 

But, really, come on, please. You cannot possibly try to argue that there isn't an obvious connection between Darby and Sting. You cannot possibly try to argue that Sting coming down from the rafters, etc etc, is NOT a clear and OBVIOUS nWo beat. 

 

Unless both of my friends (and the people who posted about it in this thread) were elaborately swerving me about Darby on Dynamite, there's no reasonable way to pretend that was anything but nWo-era-WCW nostalgia booking.

 

Spoiler

* trying very hard not to bring up Owen Hart and turn this post from kind of snarky toward HAG into straight up angry with AEW *

But I can't possibly be the only person who was a little bothered by that.

 

 

Edited November 1 by Gordi the recovering AEW f

[HarryArchieGus]

3 hours ago, Matt D said:

That’s not too different than what I said about the match itself. On their overall case, there are both pros and cons to their influence case in the way that they used irony and postmodernism in order to get over when they couldn’t get over any other way.

It certainly opened certain doors for certain wrestlers to succeed in certain ways that would’ve been impossible 10 years earlier. Personally, I think the cost is way too high. They busted down doors and glass ceilings that just happened to be load-bearing.

I know you’ve likely laid it out before, but please elaborate on  that last paragraph. Seems more than a little unfair with all those that came before the Masse brothers, but curious on your thoughts here.

[Curt McGirt]

Darby not only descending from the rafters but looking like a dead man hanging from a noose... didn't think about it that way.

Edited November 1 by Curt McGirt

[HarryArchieGus]

8 hours ago, Gordi the recovering AEW f said:

Look, I know I said I was stepping away from this discussion, but COME ON! They are hitting some VERY specific nWo beats VERY hard. 

The obvious example:

I was joking with a couple of my wrestling nerd friends about how my predictions for the next few weeks were 1) Claudio lawn darting a luchadore through the side of a truck and 2) Darby descending from the rafters during a mWo post-match beat-down...

 

I was JOKING. Like, haha, as if AEW would rip off those obvious nWo beats that blatantly

 

But both the guys I was joking about that with messaged me to let me know that they ACTUALLY, LITERALLY had Darby descending from the rafters during an mWo post-match beat down on Dynamite. 

So, please. Kiss the baby on this take.

 

I mean, if you want to argue that it's GOOD that AEW is hammering on nWo nostalgia beats then go right ahead. Obviously, from this thread, there are people who were DELIGHTED to see Darby doing the Sting thing. It's not for me, at all, but I don't begrudge anybody else really enjoying it. I appreciate the value of nostalgia in pro wrestling. I marked out HARD to see Tatsumi Fujinami live and in person a little while ago, for example.

 

But, really, come on, please. You cannot possibly try to argue that there isn't an obvious connection between Darby and Sting. You cannot possibly try to argue that Sting coming down from the rafters, etc etc, is NOT a clear and OBVIOUS nWo beat. 

 

Unless both of my friends (and the people who posted about it in this thread) were elaborately swerving me about Darby on Dynamite, there's no reasonable way to pretend that was anything but nWo-era-WCW nostalgia booking.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

* trying very hard not to bring up Owen Hart and turn this post from kind of snarky toward HAG into straight up angry with AEW *

But I can't possibly be the only person who was a little bothered by that.

 

 

I would NEVER suggest that Darby and Sting don't have an obvious connection/mentorship/etc. I get that Stang first started doing the rafter deal during the nWo run, but I've never really thought of it as being exclusive to that angle. I can see how you would argue that it was. I always assumed he didn't do it more after because of the horrible Owen Hart tragedy. That one still hurts. Yeah, I get the sensitivity there. I would say Martha Hart's approval goes a long way. As does what I assume are some heavy AEW precautions - further, Darby does far more dangerous things in and around the ring. All that said, I have absolutely no issue with Darby taking cues from his mentor. Would we see Darby descending from the rafters without the BCC? Definitely, he's already done it. He just needs a group of heels. If this was Darby's first rafter descent, or he was playing a Crow in silence or in some sort of brooding way, not clearly aligning with a side, and saving everybody with his baseball bat, then you'd have a helluva plagarism argument.

I don't recall Claudio lawn darting somebody? That may have happened, but it wasn't against a trailer. Or sorry, I'm seeing now that it was 1 of your 2 thoughts/ideas. I would have no problem with AEW creative stealing that beat. I loved that Rey-Nash bit, and Claudio bealing ppl sounds awesome to me. It'd certainly make the nWo comparaison stronger, but I'm not at all against cribbing from previous angles. Isn't that kind of Pro Wrestling in a nutshell?

My biggest issue with the nWo comparison is the fact that this is not at all an invasion. It's 5 contracted AEW wrestlers being heels in a faction. Mox is amongst the most All Elite performers on the roster. It reminds me more of CrazyMax or some Puro faction. I'd have to think Mox is studying that kind of stuff more than the Big Sexy tapes. I mean you could compare this to the Horsemen or any faction you want - nWo included. I just don't see the nWo stuff being stolen or plagarized from. Watered down Invasion factions remind me of Russo/WCW/TNA, not this. Why not call it a rip off of the J-Tex corporation with the way they've used the plastic bag?

You're always a gent, Gordi-man! We will miss you if you do step away. Maybe throw us some of those patented Dean-zingers from time to time if you do.

Edited November 1 by HarryArchieGus

[Matt D]

I'm not sure exactly how I feel about the rafters stuff but I do know I'd feel worse if I they hadn't gotten Martha Hart's permission (and they have).

[Kev]

 @username mentioned that the Cole/Matthews match seems to have been quite widely negatively received online. I suspect some of that has to do with Cole so overtly being positioned in the role of defiant babyface overcoming the odds, which is typically associated with the type of non-workrate friendly top WWE stars that your stereotypical workrate-epic-loving smark (who presumably make up a sizeable portion of Cole/AEW’s fanbase) are predisposed to dislike. Now, I’d actually argue that this is consistent with how Cole has worked for a long time (excessive nearfalls and shows of resilience, etc.) but it was previously done under cover of ostensibly being a sneaky heel. 

Despite the obvious super-indie influences, Cole is a very WWE-ified worker in many ways. There used to be a criticism of WWE for booking moments rather than telling stories (before the current wave of ‘this is cinema’ positivity), and I think that kind of encapsulates Cole’s work. The Matthew’s match had the big moments (ignoring the doctor’s orders to fight on and then the big 1 count kick out to demonstrate that he’s not fragile/still has the old Adam Cole in him). But the moments felt unearned in the context of the story they built around them (and considering they blew through these in his first match back).  

Cole is largely terrible at the context and detail, a big part of that being that he doesn’t project credibility. And yes, that includes his physique. He doesn’t look physically imposing or even like an in-shape athlete. That, in itself, isn’t an issue if you can project credibility elsewhere (ZSJ being a good example of that). But, it’s never really clear why Cole is supposed to be a good wrestler; he’s not a flyer, he’s not powerful, he’s not a technician/tactician (which is what he should be), etc. He’s maybe supposed to be a striker, but all he has is a few kick variations that he spams, which mostly look shit (he doesn’t get full extension on his superkicks and the boom finisher should be a devastating killshot but usually looks like a floaty video game animation). 

The Matthews match kind of laid this bare as Matthews looked more credible in every way, but Cole basically just blew off all the work to beat him while never looking like he’s better than Matthews at any aspect of wrestling. I’d suggest this should have been an opportunity for Cole to build himself as a sympathetic, resilient, and resourceful face; sneaking out a win by outsmarting his opponent. Instead he just defaulted to his same old spots and relied on contrived big moments to do the storytelling for him. 

The whole botched devil angle is a good metaphor for Cole as a worker; the broad strokes kind of make sense, but it all falls apart if you’re paying attention to the details in between.