MARCH 2024 Wrestling Talk

[DMN]

All the talk about SMW reminded me to go back and get to watching it, because it introduced me to a ton of dudes I love, none of them for their wrestling, though, Ron Wright being the prime example. Jim Cornette knew the power of a redneck calling other redneck's rednecks, and that's what pro wrestling should be, dammit. Plus, shit, I mean, New Jack, Candido, pretty much everyone on the show can talk, it's not so bad once you get over, uhh, Dixie Dynamite. I use up all my ability to overlook that flag on Lynyrd Skynyrd and the Freebirds, so there's not much left over...

[zendragon]

[The Comedian]

21 hours ago, Cobra Commander said:

Looking around and Kruk’s also a big Rhea Ripley guy

so the concept of Kruk being really into various women wrestlers made me realize that Kruk and Mick Foley would probably enjoy each others company.

Kruk was out of Philly before ECW really hit but I don’t know if I can imagine him getting into that, aside from my confidence that John Kruk would probably enjoy the Sandman

Most ECW guys would've been pretty comfortable in the '93 Phillies locker room. Dykstra probably did as much coke and pills as any of them. And they were so into Zubaz pants, local McDonald's literally ran a Phillies Zubaz glass promotion...

Edited March 20 by The Comedian
Zubaz

[Curt McGirt]

So the Nagata Lock at the end is what Danielson has used in a couple matches recently. Good to know. (And yes I know there is more than one so I don't know if that is numbered or whatever)

I would not have been surprised if Sasaki busted Nagata's eardrum with some of those early strikes.

[JLowe]

3 hours ago, The Comedian said:

Most ECW guys would've been pretty comfortable in the '93 Phillies locker room. Dykstra probably did as much coke and pills as any of them. And they were so into Zubaz pants, local McDonald's literally ran a Phillies Zubaz glass promotion...

I did not need to know that Phillies Zubaz promotional glasses existed...

[The Comedian]

It was a sad day when I broke my Zubaz glass.

[DMN]

I hadn't really watched much Tom Prichard, but, so, uh, BOTH Prichard brothers just do Roddy Piper impressions for promos?

[Elsalvajeloco]

This should be a huge story but it is not somehow:

Basically, TKO basically won by settling and doesn't really have to deal with the blowback of something that had been brewing for literally 9 and 1/2 years. A good portion of that time, they didn't even own UFC. $335 million is enough to buy the fighters silence.

 

[odessasteps]

1 hour ago, DMN said:

I hadn't really watched much Tom Prichard, but, so, uh, BOTH Prichard brothers just do Roddy Piper impressions for promos?

Yep. I bet Dr Tom prob does Dusty impressions too

[John E. Dynamite]

What's been lost in the AEW free agent talk is that they were bidding against a company owned by the most anti-worker entity in American pro sports. I think the number has been about 15% of the UFC's revenue goes to the fighters. Thr big four sports leagues are a hair under 50/50.

[Kevin Wilson]

19 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

This should be a huge story but it is not somehow:

Basically, TKO basically won by settling and doesn't really have to deal with the blowback of something that had been brewing for literally 9 and 1/2 years. A good portion of that time, they didn't even own UFC. $335 million is enough to buy the fighters silence.

 

You could buy a shit ton of my silence for $335 mil, in fact I would literally never speak again. So I can't blame them.

[Elsalvajeloco]

5 minutes ago, Kevin Wilson said:

You could buy a shit ton of my silence for $335 mil, in fact I would literally never speak again. So I can't blame them.

I was going to do an addendum, but this is a good enough place to add what I was to add:

1. Apparently, this is going to be that spread over 10 years. None of that covers the lawyer fees, which will be massive.

2. None of that changes what was the primary goal and the crux of the lawsuit: changing the language in contracts, which favor the company and not at all beneficial to the fighter especially when the UFC was making a lot of money in 2014 and is now making an incredible amount of money in 2024. Those contracts where copied by everyone in the MMA space. So this settlement allows the UFC to keep doing business as they plan to do business and have been doing.

I just saw the tweet from Nate Quarry and yeah, it seems like the fighters involved need the money and ten years was all they could hold out.

[Godfrey]

56 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

$335 million is enough to buy the fighters silence.

How many fighters are splitting that money?

[Elsalvajeloco]

47 minutes ago, Godfrey said:

How many fighters are splitting that money?

I think I saw about 79.

Edit - Okay, it looks to be 1,200, actually. 79 is from one of the 5 lawsuits that got eventually consolidated into one.

[Robert S]

44 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I think I saw about 79.

Edit - Okay, it looks to be 1,200, actually. 79 is from one of the 5 lawsuits that got eventually consolidated into one.

335 million divided by 1200, so basically the money goes straight to the lawyers.

[Elsalvajeloco]

15 minutes ago, Robert S said:

335 million divided by 1200, so basically the money goes straight to the lawyers.

I saw some of the rough calculations by some of the folks who have been following the lawsuit religiously over the past several years. Yeah, that is it pretty much in summary.

$150k-$180k per fighter is nothing when the damages being sought was into the billions. The fighters actually got some (small) victories over the last year or so right before it was set to go to trial. For them to settle now and for that little, it's not a good look for Nate Quarry, Cung Le, etc. This goes especially since back in December 2014 and the next year or so this whole thing was suppose to change the entire landscape of MMA. 

[Eivion]

So basically they settled for what probably should have just been lawyer fees after they either won the case outright or settled for a $billion or two more?

[BloodyChamp]

I’ve never seen that match but it’s Japanese WCW jobbers somewhere besides WCW so I’m sure it phenomenal like always.

[Elsalvajeloco]

7 hours ago, Eivion said:

So basically they settled for what probably should have just been lawyer fees after they either won the case outright or settled for a $billion or two more?

Well, they were seeking $800m to $1.6 billion. Had they won, there was a possibility they would have been awarded triple what they were seeking.

Problem is...everyone knew the plaintiffs had a very tough hill to climb (proving the UFC was suppressing wages through oppressive contracts). When the lawsuits were filed in 2014 and on, they were trying to use not only UFC business records from recent years at that time but important competitor business information. I remember Bellator wanted no part of that. Vehemently against. However, as the years wore on, what helped the UFC's case is the fact that free agency largely started to shift. IMO it didn't change much because the free agents largely weren't big enough names to stop the UFC's momentum. However, you had the emergence of Bellator as more of a competitor than usual once Scott Coker took over for the ousted Bjorn Rebney, you had WSOF which is the present day PFL on ESPN, and you had ONE FC out in Asia which spends a hell of a lot on MMA free agents (former UFC and Bellator fighters) and homegrown talent in MMA and kickboxing/muay thai. You had all these Bare Knuckle promotions start up, which pick up a bunch of past their prime UFC/MMA fighters as well as folks like a Mike Perry or Paige VanZant who had notable mildly successful runs in the UFC. A lot of those folks got good money AFTER they left the UFC. So you can say that being signed to the UFC was crippling financially, but once that contract was over and you were free and clear, you had a chance to make the same or much more than what you made in the UFC. According to Paul Gift, who is one of the people who covered this for the longest, the plaintiffs were basically using models to prove that the UFC's wage share was unreasonable and unjust. The larger issue with that is once the UFC presents their evidence, everything is basically open to interpretation. You are asking folks to basically understand the inner workings of the financial side of MMA when people who have covered the UFC, MMA, and combat sports for a living basically don't understand the inner workings of MMA business (sound familiar?). The plaintiffs survived a few motions to dismiss and they had some victories in discovery, which uncovered what folks like Ronda, Conor, Brock, etc. made in the UFC. The UFC was putting a lot of their money though on proving the UFC was just one stop in a fighter's journey and that their business dealings were normal for how any major sports league operates. According to Gift, there was going to be some emails that come out or have came out from Dana and other Zuffa/UFC brass at the time which probably would have been ugly. However, based on my understanding, there was no real smoking gun or absolutely damning piece of evidence AGAINST what was formerly Zuffa and the UFC. They had enough to stop the lawsuit from being dismissed over the matter of several years, but IMO not enough to prove what from the outset they wanted to prove and that's UFC using fighters as pawns to intentionally keep fighter wages low.

The fighters lose face in that a lot of the original goal was lost throughout the years. I mean how could it not when it just went on and on for almost ten years. They also lost basically two years due to the coronavirus pandemic. It also didn't help after the first year or so, no one covered it outside maybe three or four people on any substantial level for the better part of eight or eight and a half years. Every now and again, you would hear about a ruling on this or that in discovery. That was pretty much it up until the class certification stuff, which was relatively recent. However, I remember the day the lawsuit news originally came out in 2014. That was basically when the UFC was largely having a really rough time (some below standard PPVs due to a rampant injury bug, oversaturation, drug test failures/issues, fighter negotiations playing out in the media). You would have thought the MMA world was being shooked to its very core. Now? For it to finally end (the settlement still has to be certified) like this, I cannot think of a bigger victory for TKO and the UFC.

The lawyers are going to get 1/3 of that money. The fighters are going to get the rest, but it's not exactly clear how that's going to be divvied up yet.

[RazorbladeKiss87]

Wrestling fans are weird. I found someone with a ton of satellite dark match footage on Archive. I'm scrolling through seeing what's there and end up on a huge illuminati section and it just went downhill from there. I didn't know that Rhianna was part of MKULTRA but now I do. 

[DMN]

10 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Well, they were seeking $800m to $1.6 billion. Had they won, there was a possibility they would have been awarded triple what they were seeking.

Problem is...everyone knew the plaintiffs had a very tough hill to climb (proving the UFC was suppressing wages through oppressive contracts). When the lawsuits were filed in 2014 and on, they were trying to use not only UFC business records from recent years at that time but important competitor business information. I remember Bellator wanted no part of that. Vehemently against. However, as the years wore on, what helped the UFC's case is the fact that free agency largely started to shift. IMO it didn't change much because the free agents largely weren't big enough names to stop the UFC's momentum. However, you had the emergence of Bellator as more of a competitor than usual once Scott Coker took over for the ousted Bjorn Rebney, you had WSOF which is the present day PFL on ESPN, and you had ONE FC out in Asia which spends a hell of a lot on MMA free agents (former UFC and Bellator fighters) and homegrown talent in MMA and kickboxing/muay thai. You had all these Bare Knuckle promotions start up, which pick up a bunch of past their prime UFC/MMA fighters as well as folks like a Mike Perry or Paige VanZant who had notable mildly successful runs in the UFC. A lot of those folks got good money AFTER they left the UFC. So you can say that being signed to the UFC was crippling financially, but once that contract was over and you were free and clear, you had a chance to make the same or much more than what you made in the UFC. According to Paul Gift, who is one of the people who covered this for the longest, the plaintiffs were basically using models to prove that the UFC's wage share was unreasonable and unjust. The larger issue with that is once the UFC presents their evidence, everything is basically open to interpretation. You are asking folks to basically understand the inner workings of the financial side of MMA when people who have covered the UFC, MMA, and combat sports for a living basically don't understand the inner workings of MMA business (sound familiar?). The plaintiffs survived a few motions to dismiss and they had some victories in discovery, which uncovered what folks like Ronda, Conor, Brock, etc. made in the UFC. The UFC was putting a lot of their money though on proving the UFC was just one stop in a fighter's journey and that their business dealings were normal for how any major sports league operates. According to Gift, there was going to be some emails that come out or have came out from Dana and other Zuffa/UFC brass at the time which probably would have been ugly. However, based on my understanding, there was no real smoking gun or absolutely damning piece of evidence AGAINST what was formerly Zuffa and the UFC. They had enough to stop the lawsuit from being dismissed over the matter of several years, but IMO not enough to prove what from the outset they wanted to prove and that's UFC using fighters as pawns to intentionally keep fighter wages low.

The fighters lose face in that a lot of the original goal was lost throughout the years. I mean how could it not when it just went on and on for almost ten years. They also lost basically two years due to the coronavirus pandemic. It also didn't help after the first year or so, no one covered it outside maybe three or four people on any substantial level for the better part of eight or eight and a half years. Every now and again, you would hear about a ruling on this or that in discovery. That was pretty much it up until the class certification stuff, which was relatively recent. However, I remember the day the lawsuit news originally came out in 2014. That was basically when the UFC was largely having a really rough time (some below standard PPVs due to a rampant injury bug, oversaturation, drug test failures/issues, fighter negotiations playing out in the media). You would have thought the MMA world was being shooked to its very core. Now? For it to finally end (the settlement still has to be certified) like this, I cannot think of a bigger victory for TKO and the UFC.

The lawyers are going to get 1/3 of that money. The fighters are going to get the rest, but it's not exactly clear how that's going to be divvied up yet.

Fighters (and wrestlers) will continue to get underpaid (on the whole) because they don't have a union. The reason why NBA, NFL, MLB players get ~50% of the money is because they have unions. I'd say it was because of the team versus individual nature of the sport, but golfers and tennis players have unions (and for pro wrestlers, actors would be comparable), so it's not an excuse.

From the outside, I think that MMA and pro wrestling, as careers, breed a 'crabs in a bucket' mentality, both by the nature of the sport/business and intentionally fostered by promoters, that keeps fighter/wrestlers underpaid. They're their own worst enemies.

[Elsalvajeloco]

11 minutes ago, DMN said:

Fighters (and wrestlers) will continue to get underpaid (on the whole) because they don't have a union. The reason why NBA, NFL, MLB players get ~50% of the money is because they have unions. I'd say it was because of the team versus individual nature of the sport, but golfers and tennis players have unions (and for pro wrestlers, actors would be comparable), so it's not an excuse.

From the outside, I think that MMA and pro wrestling, as careers, breed a 'crabs in a bucket' mentality, both by the nature of the sport/business and intentionally fostered by promoters, that keeps fighter/wrestlers underpaid. They're their own worst enemies.

I would boxing in there as well cause that's basically public enemy #1 when it comes to all that even boxing had far and above some of the largest payouts in sports for almost a century.

When it comes to a union, I think all the major stick and ball leagues had an advantage of that they were pretty much (once you got past the NBA/ABA and AFL/NFL stuff obviously) one league centric/dominated. There was a central figure to attack. Yeah, pro wrestling had the NWA but we saw by the late 80s/early 90s, that itself was just a facade and sand castle that could be easily knocked down. With combat sports, the barrier for entry as a promoter, matchmaker, participant is so extremely low that the gap between one end to other is absurd. You can call yourself a pro wrestler and be paid in a hot dog and $50 in Monopoly money. You can also be paid millions to work WrestleMania or All Out. Same with boxing. You can make nothing to show up and do a four rounder at the some Ramada Inn on the weekend. That's the floor. However, the ceiling is making well over $100 million a year. You're absolutely right comparing wrestling to acting. However, to get SAG eligible, you still have to meet certain qualifications. The reason combat sport promoters can absolutely exploit labor is there are NO qualifications.

[Technico Support]

2 hours ago, RazorbladeKiss87 said:

I didn't know that Rhianna was part of MKULTRA but now I do. 

I hear the mind altering drugs hit you right in the cerebellum

'ellum

'ellum

hey

hey

[Elsalvajeloco]

Man, I am so glad Jose Aldo is coming back this year so I can hear "Run This Town" and Rihanna's yodeling.

[Lawful Metal]

Lawyers are probably getting 40-45% of that lawsuit.

Edit: probably more for "expenses."  I know some lawyers that charge per staple. 

Edited March 21 by Lawful Metal