Zakk_Sabbath Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dolfan in NYC said: The NFL does fine on Prime, the WWE should be okay too. Some quick and dirty Google numbers: TNF on Prime averages ~11m - median audience age 48.5 years old SNF on NBC averaged 22m in 2023 - median audience age 55.4 years old (6.9 years older) Obviously 11m smokes both AEW and WWE, but on paper, I think it's still worth considering that the overall audience halved. However, with Amazon skewing almost seven years younger, even with a drop-off, I would imagine it's looked at as a more valuable audience - so based upon that alone, I think all things being equal, you're likely right that Raw would be fine. You changed my mind completely with the NFL stuff, I now think more of the audience is gonna follow than I anticipated this morning Edit: Ha @Stefanie Sparkleface great timing with your post. you're probably right too - my thinking was antiquated Edited January 10 by Zakk_Sabbath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Commander Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 also Raw's a 3 hour show that if you don't watch it, you probably don't miss a lot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 I wonder what kind of recap they’ll do on Peacock if at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 2 hours ago, Zakk_Sabbath said: Some quick and dirty Google numbers: TNF on Prime averages ~11m - median audience age 48.5 years old SNF on NBC averaged 22m in 2023 - median audience age 55.4 years old (6.9 years older) Obviously 11m smokes both AEW and WWE, but on paper, I think it's still worth considering that the overall audience halved. However, with Amazon skewing almost seven years younger, even with a drop-off, I would imagine it's looked at as a more valuable audience - so based upon that alone, I think all things being equal, you're likely right that Raw would be fine. You changed my mind completely with the NFL stuff, I now think more of the audience is gonna follow than I anticipated this morning Edit: Ha @Stefanie Sparkleface great timing with your post. you're probably right too - my thinking was antiquated Premier Boxing Champions (Al Haymon's stable of fighters) has a deal to be on Prime supposedly. Boxing skews old and probably older than even the wrestling crowd. IMO switching to Prime is probably going to increase their audience given that they were doing about 300,000 to 450,000 on Showtime. Problem is with boxing not being on linear TV anymore outside a dozen Top Rank shows a year and a bunch of stuff streaming between DAZN, UFC Fight Pass, and other platforms, I am not sure how much of this stuff is being watched at all. Fight Pass is fine cause it's powered by the UFC and doesn't come up with a big price tag. DAZN and now Prime are likely spending a ton of cash. I have yet to see DAZN get any type of return after several years in the boxing game now. I can see WWE bringing in a good number of subs especially at the beginning. However, I cannot see that amount sticking around unless they devote so much in advertising. The NFL is only a fraction of the year with a much larger base audience to work with and vast pool of their own resources. Pro wrestling is year round. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakk_Sabbath Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said: IMO switching to Prime is probably going to increase their audience given that they were doing about 300,000 to 450,000 on Showtime. Forgive me if this is a silly question, but is that not like, a pretty damn good number for a premium cable station? I know by now you have to be fucking sick of playing 20 Questions with me every time you bring up the legit fight game lol- BUT - I do remember in one such conversation, you telling me Tuesday Night Fights on USA averaged something like 2-3 million back in the '90s. So looking at that, looking at Dynamite numbers, I see this ~400K on Showtime and go "Eh, what's the problem?" Were their production/talent/overhead costs just way out of control or something?? Edit: Not poo-pooing their growth strategy at all if that's what it is, I mean even one or two ads during one of those TNF games ought to pay dividends id assume Edited January 10 by Zakk_Sabbath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 1 hour ago, Zakk_Sabbath said: Forgive me if this is a silly question, but is that not like, a pretty damn good number for a premium cable station? I know by now you have to be fucking sick of playing 20 Questions with me every time you bring up the legit fight game lol- BUT - I do remember in one such conversation, you telling me Tuesday Night Fights on USA averaged something like 2-3 million back in the '90s. So looking at that, looking at Dynamite numbers, I see this ~400K on Showtime and go "Eh, what's the problem?" Were their production/talent/overhead costs just way out of control or something?? Edit: Not poo-pooing their growth strategy at all if that's what it is, I mean even one or two ads during one of those TNF games ought to pay dividends id assume Re: Showtime Boxing numbers Is that range bad? For those level of shows imo, knowing that it's basically just one promoter, and the major push being PPVs, that is not bad. However, boxing had been on Showtime since 1986. Even though they played second fiddle to HBO for 30 years, they still made it a cornerstone for their sports division outside of their NFL show. Even when the HBO audience for boxing shrunk due to an overall decline in quality, they were still hovering around one million. Those were considered good numbers. However, it still ended up getting canceled in the previous regime change before the current one. So it's hard to look at those Showtime numbers and think, "well, we can keep this around and feel good.". HBO had been out of boxing for five years by 2023, and there was no real growth in terms of what Showtime boxing was. Granted, when Bellator got moved to Showtime, there was less room to work with cause Bellator was in desperate need of exposure. Still, with boxing not being cheap and no guarantee at all those shows could generate subs, they decided to get out last year. Doesn't help that Paramount is a dumpster fire. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 3 hours ago, Zakk_Sabbath said: Some quick and dirty Google numbers: TNF on Prime averages ~11m - median audience age 48.5 years old SNF on NBC averaged 22m in 2023 - median audience age 55.4 years old (6.9 years older) Obviously 11m smokes both AEW and WWE, but on paper, I think it's still worth considering that the overall audience halved. However, with Amazon skewing almost seven years younger, even with a drop-off, I would imagine it's looked at as a more valuable audience - so based upon that alone, I think all things being equal, you're likely right that Raw would be fine. You changed my mind completely with the NFL stuff, I now think more of the audience is gonna follow than I anticipated this morning Edit: Ha @Stefanie Sparkleface great timing with your post. you're probably right too - my thinking was antiquated There were quite a few weeks this year that the Thursday Prime game was a very unexciting matchup. That may have something to do with the lower number, too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakk_Sabbath Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 3 minutes ago, Log said: There were quite a few weeks this year that the Thursday Prime game was a very unexciting matchup. That may have something to do with the lower number, too. I was kinda wondering about that too (because it got to the point with TNF where the games were so shit I was purposely benching guys in fantasy and outright refusing to bet on it) and believe it or not, that's up about 24% from last season 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodyChamp Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 Does anybody remember Don Lebarba? He was the only guy whose columns I used to make an effort to read every time (I read others, but only when I had nothing better to do). He had one that made people’s heads explode about backyarders. He explained that they all started out innocently, pretending to be wrestlers the same way we pretended to be football players. That was true and ignored especially back then. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggy Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 On 1/9/2024 at 5:29 PM, Technico Support said: I sincerely hope they make changes to production. I don’t watch WWE anymore that often at all, but I did try to check out the 2023 Rumble and tapped out after counting 35 camera cuts during one short sequence. If they get someone that's the complete opposite of Kevin Dunn then that might probably be the biggest change of regime from Vince to Hunter. It was always speculated Dunn would be gone if Hunter took over but I've always heard Hunter put him over publicly. I imagine that any of the production people in FullSail all these years were probably trained to be like Kevin Dunn. But even outside of the production, Kevin Dunn has had a shallow and negative input on the overall on air product that has tainted even Vince McMahon and Hunter himselfs philosophy on wrestling that might not ever go away 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twiztor Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 On 1/9/2024 at 4:29 PM, Technico Support said: I sincerely hope they make changes to production. I don’t watch WWE anymore that often at all, but I did try to check out the 2023 Rumble and tapped out after counting 35 camera cuts during one short sequence. same. a few years ago i watched Mania after a number of years away. the constant cuts were SO DISTRACTING. i was more focused on counting how many seconds a shot would last rather than the match itself. for the record, there were VASTLY more shots that lasted less than a second than shots that lasted 5+. I only reached 10 seconds a handful of times over the hour i watched- mostly during entrances. Haven't watched WWE since and am in no hurry to go back. 8 hours ago, Ziggy said: If they get someone that's the complete opposite of Kevin Dunn then that might probably be the biggest change of regime from Vince to Hunter. It was always speculated Dunn would be gone if Hunter took over but I've always heard Hunter put him over publicly. I imagine that any of the production people in FullSail all these years were probably trained to be like Kevin Dunn. But even outside of the production, Kevin Dunn has had a shallow and negative input on the overall on air product that has tainted even Vince McMahon and Hunter himselfs philosophy on wrestling that might not ever go away all of this. 100%. obviously Hunter is going to put Dunn over publicly, especially while they were both in executive-style roles within the company. i wonder how much of those production styles were taught that way specifically because of Dunn. Like, "you need to do it this way because that's what the boss wants" as opposed to "you need to do it this way because it is the optimal way to present this". if it's more the former, we could see a bigger change than if it is the latter. i'm sure it will take a few years to really be noticeable either way. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zendragon Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Commander Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 One thing about WWE production is that it made strike exchanges super-annoying to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggy Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 1 hour ago, Cobra Commander said: One thing about WWE production is that it made strike exchanges super-annoying to watch. If the philosophy is to do cuts during strike exchanges to avoid the apparent phoneyness off certain guys strikes then just tell guys to greatly cut down doing striking offensive. If you aren't good at working punches or kicks then don't do them in the first place. I think in Dunns case it's just he expects most strikes in Wrestling, especially historically that territory to have weak looking punches. With the WWF/E schedule historically you can't blame guys for toning down but you still had guys that matches suffered greatly on TV because of the way he shoots. This current era where everyone kicks like RVD on the main roster so that really makes no sense how they shoot tv 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawful Metal Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 I miss Mike Awesome. Did he have any good to great matches in WCW? I don’t remember any matches just his weird pasted on gimmicks about fat chicks and 70s shit. Or Canadian. Was he Canadian? I need to watch heatwave 98 again 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabremike Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 20 minutes ago, Lawful Metal said: I miss Mike Awesome. Did he have any good to great matches in WCW? I don’t remember any matches just his weird pasted on gimmicks about fat chicks and 70s shit. Or Canadian. Was he Canadian? I need to watch heatwave 98 again His match vs Spike Dudley from GAC 2000 is a forgotten classic. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakk_Sabbath Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 16 minutes ago, sabremike said: His match vs Spike Dudley from GAC 2000 is a forgotten classic. Not by me, that was a great f'n match! I think to this day, that match and Taka/HHH from that one '99 SD! are like the two biggest model examples for those kinds of matches. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorman Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 53 minutes ago, Lawful Metal said: I miss Mike Awesome. Did he have any good to great matches in WCW? I don’t remember any matches just his weird pasted on gimmicks about fat chicks and 70s shit. Or Canadian. Was he Canadian? From King of Atlanta, Page 210 (WCW Sin PPV) 5. Canadian Penalty Box match: The Filthy Animals (Rey Misterio Jr., Billy Kidman & Konnan with Tygress) vs. Team Canada (Lance Storm, Elix Skipper & Mike Awesome with Major Gunns) I didn't remember Mike Awesome joining Team Canada. Was he really Canadian? (Checks Google) No? Maybe Awesome just needed a new gimmick every three months like a car needs gas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Commander Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 “The Contract does say Kelce… Donna Kelce” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caley Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 2 hours ago, Gorman said: From King of Atlanta, Page 210 (WCW Sin PPV) 5. Canadian Penalty Box match: The Filthy Animals (Rey Misterio Jr., Billy Kidman & Konnan with Tygress) vs. Team Canada (Lance Storm, Elix Skipper & Mike Awesome with Major Gunns) I didn't remember Mike Awesome joining Team Canada. Was he really Canadian? (Checks Google) No? Maybe Awesome just needed a new gimmick every three months like a car needs gas. Vince Russo is the answer. WCW brought Awesome in and, suddenly, the guy who looked like such a monster in ECW, didn't look so big next to guys like Nash or even Hogan. Couple that with his dreadful promos, instead of pushing him as a monster, they pivoted and made him 'That 70s Guy' because he had a mullet. I mean, the easier thing to do would be to pair him with smaller wrestlers and give him a mouthpiece but that wasn't Russo's style. Then he became the "Fat Chick Thriller" so that Russo could script segments with obese women. Seeing as all that stuff basically buried Awesome as a comedy-level guy, they needed to rehab him and Lance Storm's Team Canada group (That had almost NO Canadian wrestlers, outside of PCO who was only around for a show or due to some sort of visa reasons) was pretty hot, so they added Awesome to the group in a hilariously ill-designed turn where Awesome turned around to reveal the Canadian flag on his tights but instead just looked like he was pointing at his asshole. He largely went back to being Mike Awesome once he was back in Storm's group but I honestly can't recall a single good match in his time in WCW. His ECW style wasn't really transferable to WCW (IIRC one of the few times he did that brutal Awesome Bomb over the ropes through a table, Vampire ended up with a concussion) and, really, the only matches through the Russo/Bischoff era that are memorable are weird anomalies like the Funk-Candido brawl that ended up with Funk getting kicked by a horse or the Goldberg-Steiner match which is overbooked to hell but largely memorable because both guys seemingly repeatedly forget that it's not a real fight and beat the life out of each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt McGirt Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 32 minutes ago, caley said: Vampire ended up with a concussion I know who you mean but that's just funny. Vampire with a concussion, he couldn't find my neck If he had a mullet and you didn't like it then why not have him CUT THE MULLET. It's asking to make too much sense of course. Didn't Mike have a crew cut once? That looked good on him. Make him an Ivan Drago type with a mouthpiece, keeps him from talking. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Commander Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 42 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said: I know who you mean but that's just funny. Vampire with a concussion, he couldn't find my neck the Vampire kept failing the concussion test over having light shined in his eyes 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caley Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 44 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said: I know who you mean but that's just funny. Vampire with a concussion, he couldn't find my neck If he had a mullet and you didn't like it then why not have him CUT THE MULLET. It's asking to make too much sense of course. Didn't Mike have a crew cut once? That looked good on him. Make him an Ivan Drago type with a mouthpiece, keeps him from talking. i think he did, finally cut it during the Team Canada phase. It was just so WCW: "We can sign away their world champion and change everything about him!" I still wonder what have happened if their signing of Sabu had gone through at about this time, as well: a mute guy who specializedin the type of violent matches WCW couldn't show...he might well have ended up a wrestling mime under Russo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxB Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Sabu was in WCW for a while. They had the actually good idea of having him wrestle Jerry Lynn, who designed a masked gimmick for his run. But he didn't have a name for it right away. He was making suggestions like The Phantasm or whatever, but then Dusty said "Fuck it, we'll call him Mr JL". https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvknux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Commander Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 still a shame that Sabu bounced out of WCW so quickly in 1995 that we never got a Sabu vs Macho Man Randy Savage 4 minute TV match (Sheik was one of the first promoters to use Randy, so you know he would have worked with Sabu at least once) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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