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AEW Full Gear - 11/9/2019


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Dave Meltzer star ratings:

Proud-N-Powerful/Young Bucks ****1/4

Page/PAC ****1/4

SCU/Lucha Bros ****

Riho/Sakura ****

Jericho/Cody ****1/2

Moxley/Omega ****1/2. Surprised by that with what Meltzer said about it even though it had a favourite of his in Omega.

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I've never given a fuck about his star ratings but it's hilarious that he thought Omega/Moxley went too far or whatever but still gave it almost 5 stars.

Also he apparently said Full Gear did around 100K buys, "maybe less". I know he doesn't have the actual numbers yet, but less than 100K could be legitimately anything. Could be 90K, could be 10K. Ugh.

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Look, I mostly agree with Dave's WWE and NJPW ratings despite valuing a lot of different things in wrestling but him spending the entire week trashing Omega/Moxley and then giving it 4.5 is he-fucking-larious. My God.

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And when Bryan asked him why he would call it excellent despite hating it, he had just about the weakest fucking justification. Something along the lines of, "The fans loved it, so it has to be amazing" (paraphrasing yeah). Why wasn't Hogan-Rock like 100 stars with that mentality? I love me some Dave but he's an odd human.

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This is why I hate star ratings now and generally find them to be bullshit in recent years. He gives a match he hated and didn't like 4 1/2 stars. At the very least, stick to your damn guns. They are just arbitrary numbers. 

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In theory, I have no problem saying a match was "good" but not liking it. It could be well-executed and such, just not a style I prefer or such. 

But I also eschew star ratings these days, be it rasslin, film or what have you. 

(Not pertaining to the match in question. Havent seen it and no desire either)

Edited by odessasteps
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This reminds me of Naito vs Ibushi where him and Bryan took such a hard stance on the bumps those guys took in the match, how it was unnecessary, and how the rating for it should reflect that...and then he gave it 4 1/2 stars.

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I think you could objectively determine if a match is good and still not like it.  I think Dave is probably not the best judge of that since his objective measures seems to be based on the amount of action and length.

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2 minutes ago, Goodear said:

I think you could objectively determine if a match is good and still not like it.  I think Dave is probably not the best judge of that since his objective measures seems to be based on the amount of action and length.

I think that's largely correct. It's just extremely odd because on air, across multiple WOR and WOL shows, Dave trashed the match or would damn it with faint praise like, "well, Bryan, um, um, um, like, the fans loved it and our feedback, you know, um, uh, um, more than 50% loved it" or "well, well, well, um, the thing is, um, see, you know, the storytelling was there and it, you know, it did tell a good story." He's gave his opinion in an "objective" way saying they just went from hardcore spot to hardcore spot, the wrestling they did was good and was better than the hardcore stuff, the problem was that the match was mostly hardcore stuff, a lot of the bumps were unnecessary or dangerous, WAS THAT REAL GLASS?!, both guys were just bleeding all over the place, etc. and then that turned into...4 1/2 stars.

Like odessa said, more and more I shy away from star ratings for wrestling matches, movies, or games. Death Stranding is a good example. Everything I've heard about that game during podcasts makes me not want to play it. That all tells me more about the game than a star rating does. I try to focus on what's said more than anything and personally, I tend to side with I hated it, I didn't like it, it wasn't for me, I liked it, I loved it, it blew my mind. That's a better way for me to "rate" something.

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I've personally preferred star ratings as a recommendation system rather than a measure of objective quality just so you don't get caught in the 'this **** match is better than that **** match so I guess its really ****1/8 because its not as good as this ****1/2 from three years ago' trap.  EDIT: Also the '**** matches are now the average trap'

My version

***** - Highly Recommended for everyone, a game changer for people who hate the style/participants.  The match you show people to sell them on a wrestler.

**** - Recommended for everyone except the absolute haters of the style/participants, fans would likely love it but it won't change hearts and minds.

*** - Recommended for fans of the style/participants, people who don't like the style should stay away, fans would like it 

** - Recommended only for super fans of the style/participants, most normal fans of the style would say its below average

* - Not Recommended for anyone.  The match you show people to drive them away from a wrestler.

 

Edited by Goodear
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9 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

I've read a lot of Roger Ebert and this sounds like the same bullshit he'd pull when he hit a film that made him morally squeamish but he couldn't deny its artistry. 

That said, Meltzer is no Roger Ebert

I can recognize the artistry in the Joker, but I didn't love it and rate it 4 1/2 stars. '

There's definite artistry in the way Quentin Tarantino immerses you in 1969 Hollywood for Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. DiCaprio and Pitt's performances are great. However, it's still dull and overly long at points, and it gets overwrought with flashbacks within flashbacks. It's heavily padded. and does not need to be 2 hours and 41 minutes. Those things bring down the movie to me and affect the overall score. 

I didn't hear him say really anything complimentary about the match. All I heard from Meltzer and Alvarez was them rail on how it was too violent and how no mainstream promotion ever based their product around matches like this. Their pearl clutching over the match was bad enough. Meltzer put off that he didn't like it and then rates it 4 1/2 snowflakes. That's an absolute joke.  

Edited by TheVileOne
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I personally use a rating system of personal emotions. So if I’m literally asleep, then that’s bad to me. If I’m looking like I’m taking a shit that’s surprisingly me saying that’s mediocre. If I’m smiling then that’s good. If I’m smiling with  a grin, and bulging eyes, then buddy this is great. But if I’m smiling with a massive grin, eyes bulging, and my hair is standing up, then this is H-O-T!

Edited by LoneWolf&Subs
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Guest The Magnificent 7

I like a star system, but it really bugs the heck out of me that Meltzer started giving more than 5 stars at some point. It’s dumb. This ain’t Spinal Tap. 

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I could be mis-remembering but I recall him saying there's technically no limit to the star system. At that point I'd already gotten over assigning star grades to matches, and I'm glad I did so.

Sting and Arn Anderson had a match in 1995 on WCW Saturday Night that probably wouldn't be graded even 4 stars or a MOTYC or even make a top 10 match list. But it's a matchup I freaking love. Sure there can be matches that can be seen as duds or total stink shows or universally considered great. But I don't think any wrestling fan needs to be limited for a match based on an arbitrary scale that at this point has proven to be irrelevant by its originator. 

I can't take the star system seriously right now if he's going to go six stars or 4 1/2 on Moxley/Omega after he spent half of his show hating on it. 

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Jim Cornette and one of his friends invented the four star system. Then they saw Terry Funk vs Jerry Lawler matches and decided those were worth breaking the system for, and gave them five.

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1 hour ago, AxB said:

Jim Cornette and one of his friends invented the four star system. Then they saw Terry Funk vs Jerry Lawler matches and decided those were worth breaking the system for, and gave them five.

Norm Dooley. And the first 6 star match was from 81.

 

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On 11/13/2019 at 10:11 PM, HarryArchieGus said:

Absolutely, but I'd really like it if Excalibur didn't say either.  It takes away from Jericho's arrogant self aggrandizing.    

Not really disagreeing with anything you're saying, but AEW's shows all feel exciting and important.  Post-G1 NJPW has had some moments, but overall feels kinda stale or monotonous.  Their house shows in particular feel completely pointless.  Live exercises.  Whomever is saying a NJPW house show is better than an AEW PPV - I don't know where you're coming from but to each their own.  Also, there is something about these international shows for New Japan that just doesn't feel right.  Other than Suzuki-Okada, I had such a tough time getting thru that UK show, and there were other meaningful matches on that card.  The NYC show I watched was meh, and had really weak production.  Also, it feels like when they're in the US or UK they try to work in more traditional American style elements, and it comes off kinda lame in comparison to the more natural Japan shows.  AEW obviously runs a lot less shows, but there hasn't been a single show that hasn't been exciting going in and met or nearly met any of my high expectations.  I'm a NJPW World subscriber, but thinking about taking a break until the Kingdom show.  

NJPW has felt pointless the last 2 years from the end of the G1 to WK.  I unsubbed this year after October , not even Taichi-Naito could make me pay for November.  I'll resub in January and go to at least BOSJ (I like BOSJ more than G1, BOSJ is more unpredictable)

 

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