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19 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Actually, my other criticism is that Everett Ross was a bit too teeth-gnashing and "little big man" and not fumbling and endearing in any way. I get that we only saw him 2-3 times but he's a far bigger departure, in the ways that matter (the thematic spirit of the character), than Zemo. His duncery is there, but it felt more mean-spirited than hapless. Basically, he was too confident in his role, and his role was slightly too high. It makes me think he'll be more of a begrudging antagonistic foil to make Panther look better in comparison than a point of view character into the wonder, sophistication, and intrigue of Panther's world.

To be fair, it's a lot like how Ross was originally intro'd in the beginning of Priest's BP run. I just started re-reading it again on MU, and he was a lot like that at the beginning. Especially the overconfidence. 

 

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It's been over ten years since I've read that run. I have vivid memories of devil's pants, but not necessarily that level of bluster before the world was revealed as being far bigger than he knew. I think some of that was that he was in a more junior position in the comics, no? But then we live in a different world in 2016 than in 1999 or whenever. You can't pluck an American Foreign Policy character from a pre-9/11 world and expect him to transfer 100%.

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Maybe I missed something, but a large part of Zemo's plan seemed contingent on knowing or at least having a strong suspicion of something that only Steve, Black Widow (?), and Hyrda would've known about. Was there an explanation for how he learned of the 1991 mission in the first place? 

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Probably from the encrypted stuff that Natasha released at the end of WS. I remember it being mentioned, but completely forgot who was talking about it.

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2 hours ago, APO said:

Probably from the encrypted stuff that Natasha released at the end of WS. I remember it being mentioned, but completely forgot who was talking about it.

This, and I think Zemo himself said it.  

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Regarding the treatment of villains in the MCU: I recently listened to the director's commentary on AOU, and Joss seems fairly proud of his version of Ultron. Take that as you will. 

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1 hour ago, APO said:

Probably from the encrypted stuff that Natasha released at the end of WS. I remember it being mentioned, but completely forgot who was talking about it.

Zemo plainly stated he decrypted the HYDRA files Widow released.

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9 hours ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

Regarding the treatment of villains in the MCU: I recently listened to the director's commentary on AOU, and Joss seems fairly proud of his version of Ultron. Take that as you will. 

Yeah....   I'm just glad he's gone.  The Russos are better in every way.  

So if Zemo learned about the mission from '91 because of Black Widow then it's her and Cap's fault that this happened just as it was Tony's fault that all the other shit happened.

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So, the data dump *wasn't* a good idea after all...

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2 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:
Quote
11 hours ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

Regarding the treatment of villains in the MCU: I recently listened to the director's commentary on AOU, and Joss seems fairly proud of his version of Ultron. Take that as you will. 

 

Yeah....   I'm just glad he's gone.  The Russos are better in every way.  

 

As a diehard Whedon fanboy it pains me to say but they really are. Civil War was so much better than AoU it's not even close. This was the Avengers sequel we should've gotten, not whatever that mess AoU was.

I'm late to the party so most of what I wanted to say has already been said. The Zemo thing is funny because I didn't even put him together with Baron Zemo until the very end when his name was mentioned as Watson was questioning him and my first thought was "Oh, they Mandarin'd him." Which actually isn't fair because I really don't mind the change at all. And as far as villains go, I thought he was right there with Loki as far as best ones yet. I actually like the story that a normal ordinary guy can bring down the Avengers through cunning, intelligence and force of will where these uber-powerful beings always fail. It reminded me a bit of Identity Crisis (although I realize Lord did have powers) in that the core of the story is the heroes are more dangerous to each other than the villains.

Anyway, can't say enough good things about Civil War. Loved every single second of it. I'll never forget when the screen flashed "Queens" and half the theater I was in popped big because we all knew what that meant. Seeing Spidey - my favorite character - in a MU movie was surreal yet so satisfying. And in the space of 3 scenes I'm already ready to declare him the best Spidey ever. Of course, the disclaimer being I absolutely hated his soulless and inaccurate depictions in all those awful Raimi and Webb films.

Only thing I'd disagree with is I've seen people say he felt tacked on. To me, his appearance made perfect sense - far more sense than other characters who popped up. To me, it's Hawkeye and Antman who felt tacked on. It struck me odd that both Hawkeye and Scott are portrayed as family men yet felt no compunction about becoming criminals. I know it was sorta explained and you can always say "because....heroes." but I felt the alliances were wacky. To me, it makes more sense for Hawkeye and/or Antman to stay within the law (or sit the fight out) where someone like Widow would be much more likely to side with Cap.

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2 hours ago, Raziel403 said:

So, the data dump *wasn't* a good idea after all...

They didn't think that through at all.

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I meant to say this was a far better Avengers film than the last Avengers one, Age of Ultron. When Queens came up on the screen, I knew what that meant and sat straight up. Spider-Man's brilliant in this film, please carry this version over to Spider-Man: Homecoming.

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Yeah, Civil War is my second favorite Avengers movie, too.

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10 hours ago, TheVileOne said:

They didn't think that through at all.

It was a good idea.  It is not like they had a crystal ball and knew that Zemo had gone Sun Tzu and set out to destroy his enemies without even having to put himself in the spotlight.

I like how the PTSD from the New York Invasion continues to drive Tony.  He's always looking for an angle to cash out of the super hero business whether it be Ultron or the Sokovian Accords.

He's all for restraint because he really doesn't want the responsibility of making the big super hero-y decisions anymore even though he loves suiting up.  And then all of that goes out of the window once we hit the big reveal about Bucky's Winter Soldier ops and things get personal.

Even then, Tony fucks up and equates revenge with justice.

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Tony Stark is Wile E. Coyote, always running afoul of the very plans he'd concocted to help him win.

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14 minutes ago, Mike Zeidler said:

Tony Stark is Wile E. Coyote, always running afoul of the very plans he'd concocted to help him win.

With the difference being that he was on the wrong side of the Ultron issue and arguably on the right side of the Sokovian Accords / Winter Soldier issue.

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4 minutes ago, Mike Zeidler said:

Going against Cap make you wrong by default.

Unless it's crazy 50s Commie Smasher Cap.

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In spoiler tags for those who haven't yet seen Captain America: Civil War...

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Funnies:

tumblr_o7076z1OtE1qagopoo1_1280.png

I remembered yesterday both films originally had the same release date.

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2 hours ago, Mike Zeidler said:

Going against Cap make you wrong by default.

Not after you have evidence of what really happened to your parents.

I love the Russos and their No Good Deed Goes Unpunished theme for the Cap movies, but I don't need this to carry all the way through to Infinity War.

Infinity War Pt 2 needs to send the crowd home happy.  No more object lessons on the road to Hell being paved with the best intentions.

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There was something I wanted to respond to earlier and forgot, and I don't have a clue who said it now and I'm not digging through spoiler boxes to find it, but it was a complaint about the airport fight.

Vision didn't try to kill Sam, and Rhodey didn't tell him to kill Falcon. The line was "turn him into a glider" so he didn't have propulsion, but could still glider himself down to a safe landing. Vision missed, instead of taking out Sam's tech it took out War Machine's, hence the disaster. It was very explicitly clear there was no attempt to kill anyone.

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Hawkeye was there because Tony and Vision were keeping Wanda hostage. And he still owed Quicksilver for saving his life in AoU. That's why he later on he quickly glanced at Wanda and told Cap, "I owed a debt." If they hadn't captured Wanda, he probably would have stayed home. And what was the first time he did in the airport fight? Grab Wanda and try to bring her to safety (the part where Wanda ended up raining cars on Tony).

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This is the first MCU movie I'll be seeing for a second time since Guardians of the Galaxy. I've seen them all in theater at least once with the lone exception of The Incredible Hulk but hey I wasn't the only one who didn't see it in theaters.

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