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"Tony Stank, party of one."

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12 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Spider-Man was cool but people need to get a grip calling him the best ever Spider-Man. After 10 minutes?  Come on.

The bar was set kinda low.

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Captain American movies have gotten progressively better while Thor and Iron Man took a few stumbles along the way, although Iron Man / Tony Stark remains one of the better written characters in the MCU.  Hopefully Spidey will get the same treatment going forward.

I really liked Civil War although I don't think it is better than Winter Soldier or Guardians of the Galaxy.  As mentioned above, I am really impressed by the fact that the writers and directors of Captain America movies have managed to turn a one dimensional propaganda figure into one of the most human of any Marvel character.

Spider Man has traditionally been Marvel's everyman but in the MCU, we're all Captain America.

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It's tough to judge a character from only two scenes, but Holland already made a tremendous impression.  He does nerdy-teenage-outcast Peter Parker much better than Andrew Garfield did, and he does quippy-carefree-motormouth Spider-man much better than Tobey Maguire did.  And it certainly doesn't hurt that I think his costume, special effects, and fight choreography all looked better here than they ever have before (that perfect sound effect for the web shooters!).  So.. yeah, it MIGHT be the single best live-action portrayal of Spider-man we've ever seen.  If nothing else, they didn't fuck anything up.  

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Why do people complain about the non-powered super villains?  Arguably those are the ones that are the most successful in the MCU.

So what if Zemo only has one scene with any of the Avengers?  His plan is textbook Sun Tzu and most villains fail because they force confrontations when they don't have to.

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The issue with Zemo isn't that he only had one scene with Avengers, it's that he's basically only Zemo in name only.

Somebody else said it better than I could, this was an excellent Avengers movie, but it wasn't as great a Cap movie as the ones who preceded it.

 

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I loved this movie, with my main concern being with - again - the Marvel-verse not knowing what to do with a villain. I don't know who this guy was but he's not Zemo. 

That being said, Spider-man is pitch perfect. Easily the best incarnation since Spidey 2.  Ant Man was great. Chris Evans killed it again. And I really wanted it to end with someone dying, but that wasn't in the cards.  

Will need to re-watch, but my current rankings (Marvel only): X-Men 2, Cap 2, Cap 3, Spidey 2, Avengers -- roughly in that order. Still have Dark Knight above all of them though. 

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44 minutes ago, Ace said:

The issue with Zemo isn't that he only had one scene with Avengers, it's that he's basically only Zemo in name only.

 

27 minutes ago, Dolfan in NYC said:

I loved this movie, with my main concern being with - again - the Marvel-verse not knowing what to do with a villain. I don't know who this guy was but he's not Zemo.

He's not the Zemo I grew up with but given his goals and not having the backing and resources of an AIM or Hydra to back his plan, I thought it was actually very intelligent of him to use proxies and stay behind the scenes.

Also, I think I was fine with Zemo sans facial disfigurement and purple battle suit for the time being although they missed a prime mark-out moment. 

Spoiler

I was kinda bummed by the mid or end credit cutscene not being of Zemo escaping prison six months later or something, suiting up, and assuming leadership of the new HYDRA.

The one thing that bothers me about the new Zemo is the removal of his super scientist portfolio.

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You people and your love of Spider-Man 2. 

Did we watch the same movie? Jesus Spidey being carried by New Yorkers on the train? Toby taking off his mask to cry every 10 minutes? Some of the worst romantic dialogue since Attack of the Clones? 

What is wrong with you people?

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He's not German.  He's not a Nazi.  He's not the son of Heinrich Zemo.  He's not a legacy supervillain in a long inherited line of the same.  He's not a member of Hydra.  He's not a scientist.  He's not a world-class master of weapons.  He has no personal history with Captain America.  His face isn't disfigured.  He doesn't wear a mask.  He doesn't call himself "baron".  Absolutely nothing about this guy says that he's Zemo in any way whatsoever.  The Wolverine Origins version of Deadpool took fewer liberties with the character than Civil War takes with "Baron Zemo".  They should have just called him another name, period, because the name is literally the only thing linking him to the classic villain.  

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So they could evolve the character down the line like they did Crossbones in Winter Soldier/Civil War?

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2 minutes ago, Buy Me a Burrito said:

So they could evolve the character down the line like they did Crossbones in Winter Soldier/Civil War?

In theory, sure, but Movie Crossbones was SO much closer to Comic Crossbones than Movie Zemo was to Comic Zemo that it's nearly impossible.  Especially since the original Baron Zemo's character is based so heavily upon his backstory and his inherited legacy, none of which exists in the movie version.  

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And how Arnim Zola did not have a face built into his stomach?

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24 minutes ago, Jingus said:

He has no personal history with Captain America.

He holds Cap and the Avengers personally responsible for the deaths of his family. 

He has the same motivation that Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver had and adds to the whole Civil War premise ergo Zemo is one of the cobblestones on the path to Hell that superheroes pave with good intentions.

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12 minutes ago, Jingus said:

In theory, sure, but Movie Crossbones was SO much closer to Comic Crossbones than Movie Zemo was to Comic Zemo that it's nearly impossible.  Especially since the original Baron Zemo's character is based so heavily upon his backstory and his inherited legacy, none of which exists in the movie version.  

So it is imperative to the acceptance of Zemo as a villain that he wear a mask that is eventually stuck to his face?

Spoiler

The thing that bugs me about Zemo being Zemo In Name Only is because ZINO is pretty much Lee Woo-jin from Oldboy that succeeds in his psychological warfare to tear the protagonists asunder but does not get to commit suicide to "cement victory."

 

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18 minutes ago, Buy Me a Burrito said:

So they could evolve the character down the line like they did Crossbones in Winter Soldier/Civil War?

Maybe the guy who got a full movie's build only to blow himself up in five minutes in a move that neither the comics nor previous movie established as in-character isn't the best example?

 

Seriously it would have been better if it was a hail mary for them to get distracted by while he escaped. 

 

12 minutes ago, Buy Me a Burrito said:

Remember how Jarvis is a computer?

I always took it as a computer based on the person. Didn't take it off the table like Zemo.

 

9 minutes ago, J.T. said:

And how Arnim Zola did not have a face built into his stomach?

Yeah but the WWII version wouldn't and the Winter Soldier take was just missing the robot body. Also, a fully formed Zola using his algorithm would have been more satisfying and true to the comics than Zemo while also making more sense logistically. Less narrative punch though.

 

Honestly, I liked the narrative of the Zola character and how revenge drove the story in the back end. If anything I wish that drove more of the movie instead of the Accords. That said, it super wasn't Zemo and they maintain a pretty bad track record with adapting villains well *and* keeping them on the table.

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Past maybe one person on this board (maybe), I care way more about comics Zemo than any of you guys. The most important thing with Zemo is the dubious morality and twisted honor. In fact there's only one thing that really bugged me and that was:

 

 

that he's too much of a megalomaniac to ever shoot himself

. 

Past that, I'm fine because he played a much better role than a "pure" 1960s version of Zemo "just another nazi" would have. There were a lot of the shades of grey and "mentality of resenting the hypocrisy of so-called heroes" in him. That's the most important aspect of Modern Zemo, so even the annoying Nick Spencer version we just saw in Standoff had it in spades. You're confusing the trappings of the character or the backstory for the thematic heart of the character, which is way more important than pesky little details.

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I agree with Matt D.

Spoiler

Even if the new Zemo has no aspirations of world conquest, he would certainly be too much of an egomaniac to commit suicide and if he did, he wouldn't do it until after he made certain that there was no hope of the Avengers ever reconciling their differences.

Zemo would not check out with the job half done.

 

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I can't believe any of you guys are actually defending this.  That character is not Zemo.  He's not even close to Zemo.  They share practically zero connections, with only the most tenuous and circumstantial of "well they both kinda sorta blame Cap for killing their family" motivations and "they're both Machiavellian planners" being literally all that they have in common.  They should have given him a different name, period, because he's less like the comic Zemo than Ben Kingsley was like the comic Mandarin.  

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BTW, when the Masters of Evil used Adhesive X to glue down most of Manhatten, the Avengers went to Pete and he invented the solvent that frees everyone.

That should have gotten him a shot in Caps Kooky Quartet instead of Hawkeye. 

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I liked Zemo. I don't give a fuck who he was in the comics. It's just a fucking name. People constantly complain about the big villain in these movies and so they go the route of the villain being not that big of a deal. He's just a guy. I love that he admits he is just a guy, that no way could he succeed where Gods failed, and the best way to have some semblance of a victory would be to have the Avengers crumble from within and he succeeded in that regard. As for him wanting to kill himself, what else did he have to live for? His family was dead. He succeeded in what he set out to do. He may as well be dead too.

Instead of once again having a big villain with an army at their disposal to fall at the hands of the good guys, they went the more personal route. I thought it worked and the reaction to Zemo not being 1:1 to his portrayal on paper reminds me a lot of Iron Man 3 and Mandarin/Trevor. What good would it have done anyone if Zemo was just another masked villain who winds up getting defeated all within the span of a movie? I understand some people feel a greater attachment to this one villain, but he was never going to amount to much in the grand scheme of things, at least at this juncture.

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