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Marvel Phase III Movie Discussion Thread


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On 5/10/2016 at 1:37 PM, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

Regarding the treatment of villains in the MCU: I recently listened to the director's commentary on AOU, and Joss seems fairly proud of his version of Ultron. Take that as you will. 

As well he should be, because that version of Ultron was fantastic. A brilliant blend of the worst traits of his creators. Tony's sarcasm and pride and ego, Bruce's violent rage, both men's self-loathing. A scary twisted vision of black humor and destruction. One of my favorite villains ever.

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It could have worked better if he did anything but we really only see him involved in the one big fight at the end and he wasn't looking like a legit threat to the Avengers. They wiped him out pretty easily. It was an extended squash. Also,  Quiksilver and Scarlett Witch probably shouldn't have been in that movie at all. Lastly, I hate robots with lips or mouths that move a lot.

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4 hours ago, Brian Fowler said:

As well he should be, because that version of Ultron was fantastic. A brilliant blend of the worst traits of his creators. Tony's sarcasm and pride and ego, Bruce's violent rage, both men's self-loathing. A scary twisted vision of black humor and destruction. One of my favorite villains ever.

I liked him too, but I have to admit I would have preferred the Pym-based version who could be a lot more frightening.

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On 10/05/2016 at 9:45 AM, Matt D said:

Zemo's plan:

 

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There were convenient lucky breaks there, yes, but I think his endgame wasn't luring Cap and Iron Man to a bunker to show them the video but instead to obtain the video itself. Very likely he was just still going through the data in the bunker when they arrived. His endgame was to obtain the video in the one place that it was stored, the bunker with the other Winter Soldiers. Presumably, if no one showed up, he'd leave and then release the video to the general public to stoke the fire even more in a way that couldn't be dismissed. He knew that it would be discovered that Bucky wasn't the one to kill T'Chaka, but by the time it did, he'd have the video of Bucky killing Stark, and that would be a genie that could never be put back in the bottle once it got out. So while I think there were some convenient elements to the movie, though not unbelievable ones, I don't think there were necessarily convenient elements to the plan itself.

 

 

Nope. He's looking for the records of that mission specifically from the start. You can argue he could have released it on a different staging ground but we also see that Tony has sort of already forgiven Cap once he had time to process and some of those other heroes may well have held Tony back in a bigger context. It's all about that final showdown in Siberia, which works fine narratively but entirely depends on Falcon giving up their location to Tony *and* Tony not bringing like...Vision as backup. 

 

It's narratively satisfying but a logistical mess that depends heavily on things just going the way he needs. Which they do because narrative but it undercuts the master planner angle a bit when you think about it for more than five seconds. As compared to Lex in BvS actively positioning all parties by feeding them information or doing things from a distance to play on their fears or in a better case, Joker in TDK who created multiple win scenarios so that he'd benefit in the majority of likely outcomes. Or in a Marvel property, Killgrave in the first half or so of Jessica Jones having a ton of contingencies and paranoia as well as playing on Jessica's lack of knowledge about the limits of his powers.

 

There's no real logic to why his plan works. The narrative tells us he's a brilliant strategist and his plan has to work to fit that narrative, but the plan itself is garbage which *is* a problem and a fixable one at that. If Zemo had left tracks *only* Tony could follow that would resolve a lot of issues. Not everything, but a lot.

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Zemo's last line of dialogue displays how broad his goal was. He ultimately felt like he won, so the exact outcome in Siberia wasn't as consequential as the release of the information itself. 

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54 minutes ago, The Unholy Dragon said:

 

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Nope. He's looking for the records of that mission specifically from the start. You can argue he could have released it on a different staging ground but we also see that Tony has sort of already forgiven Cap once he had time to process and some of those other heroes may well have held Tony back in a bigger context. It's all about that final showdown in Siberia, which works fine narratively but entirely depends on Falcon giving up their location to Tony *and* Tony not bringing like...Vision as backup.

 

Spoiler

Zemo had actively avoided going into the spotlight so he could continue to move freely and cause further havoc by manipulating Bucky, so one could conclude that the plan was to keep doing just that even after the discovery of the records.. Continue to wage guerilla warfare against the Avengers until they collapsed.

It didn't really matter who backed up Iron Man, if anyone, as the desired endstate was the gelding of the Avengers as an organization by disbandment, infighting, or by having them so horribly discredited that no government on earth would allow them to operate within their borders.  That was Zemo's goal.

At the end of the movie, Cap is in exile in Wakanda, War Machine is down, yet another Iron man suit has been trashed, and the members of Team Cap are fugitives from justice.  Zemo - 1, Avengers - 0.

Now we have to see how (if ever) the Avengers will get their shit together in time to stop Thanos.

I also think we are doing Zemo a slight disservice by bringing in the ideal moves from Falcon and Iron Man that led to the final confrontation.   Part of a good strategy is knowing how your adversaries think and subtly guiding their actions. 

Make them believe they are acting on their own while all the time, you are herding them like cattle.

That's why I honestly think that the showdown in Siberia was a happy accident.  I think that Cap and Iron Man got to Siberia sooner than Zemo was prepared for them to be there and the evidence had a much more profound effect on Tony than Zemo expected it too.   Sometimes a plan works too well.

I think the suicide attempt was a ham fisted and euphoric response to his plan succeeding far faster and better than Zemo expected it to.

 

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Movie Zemo does not have an anti-nationalist agenda.   He has a pro-Sokovian agenda.  He has no other super villain aspirations other than the destruction of the Avengers.

And ULTIMATUM may be the worst acronym in the history of comic books.

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Spider-Man and Ant-Man's motivations come back to Mick Foley's point about how people that bitch about Vince McMahon killing Wrestling would mow the lawns at the McMansion if Vince asked. If you're Scott Lang, recently paroled, brand new to all of this and trying to do the right thing, and someone says Captain America needs your help, you go. Because it's Captain America. And same for Spidey - if the other person had asked, they'd be on the other side, most likely. Maybe not with Lang being full of 'Never trust a Stark' ideology, but maybe.

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1 hour ago, odessasteps said:

Very annoyed I did not recognize Zemo until the credits. #nationspride

I hope caps Kooky Quartet is still in wakanda by the time they make the BP movie.

Where do you stand on the Zemo argument?

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Given the character as is in the movie, i would have preferred they'd have used someone other than Zemo. Trying to think of a Cap villain you could have substituted. Maybe since he was masquerading as a psychiatrist, Faustus? 

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I'm trying to think which of Rd Skull's cronies fro mthe cmics could have filled the roe instead of Zemo and nothing fitsunless you wanna completely screwup Machinesmith. I do like the I dea of it being Flag Smasher, but I'm a mark for Flag Smasher. Shit I even started an ULTIMATUM fan group on FB a few yers back!

James

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34 minutes ago, Casey said:

He was already in Agent Carter, though. And died.

A legacy Faustus from a post Cold War Sokovia could have worked (maybe even better) but there was no way they were going to reference Agent Carter like that.

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If he wasnt tied into Natasha's continuity (in the comics), id say Red Guardian. But i recall he got brought back a couple years ago and i think they tinkered with his origin. 

 

I bet there are Strucker leftentants they could dig up, either from wwii or hydra. 

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Seriously though, I've thought for years Flag Smasher was a character that could break out huge with a writer that treated his anarchistic revolutionary philosophy the way Geoff Johns used Sinestro as a fascist to revamp him.

Treat his ideals with respect, while still making it crystal clear he's a monster, you know?

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