MARCH 2024 Wrestling Talk

[AxB]

47 minutes ago, RazorbladeKiss87 said:

Anyone with Honor Club: how much early ROH is on there? I really want to rewatch Joe vs Kobashi and see how it holds up. I haven't seen it since high school probably. 

The Joe vs Kobashi match is on  ROH's YouTube (twice). Although I don't think the entire show it happened on is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSonUA168fo

That's a pandemic era watchalong of the match, with Ian Riccaboni and Todd Sinclair

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSonUA168fo

That's a 3-match compilation of Joe vs Kobashi, Joe vs Kyle O'Reilly, and Joe vs Jay Briscoe.

[Gorman]

1 hour ago, RazorbladeKiss87 said:

Anyone with Honor Club: how much early ROH is on there? I really want to rewatch Joe vs Kobashi and see how it holds up. I haven't seen it since high school probably. 

Most of Year 1 is on there.

[tbarrie]

16 hours ago, Technico Support said:

I feel like a lot of wrestling criticism has its roots in Meltzer’s writing in the 80s, where guys who worked a technical style were just automatically seen as better workers.

Hey! In my early days I saw guys who worked a technical style as automatically just better workers, but I came by that attitude the right way - via Pro Wrestling Illustrated.

[zendragon]

On 3/23/2024 at 5:00 PM, BloodyChamp said:

I wasn’t a fan of most of that stuff but the SCSA and Nation exchanges were great.

 

Both of these promos contain 2 subtle real world references that not everybody caught, that probably wouldn’t have been ok’d by a producer. 

What are the references?

also the watching these makes me realize that the Austin v Owen summerslam match is pretty historically significant because Austin’s injury lead to an over use of skits and overalls long promo segments and the creation of main event brawl style

[Log]

13 hours ago, Cobra Commander said:

would we wanna know what SGW Uganda would book if MJF showed up there?

EDIT: seriously, Lord White sounds like the name of a Kamala heel manager on an indy because you couldn't suit someone up as a fake Kim Chee

When Kamala was doing territories, was it his responsibility to bring the Kim Chee gear with him everywhere he went?

[AxB]

According to his personal Twitter, Lord White has been living the gimmick for his entire online existence. VERY racist, VERY homophobic. For YEARS.

[Robert S]

13 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

The only real time I remember him is his debut which was done to complete silence cause 90% of the crowd didn't learn about Apartheid in South Africa or was born after it was ending/ended. He cut a few short promos on Raw and that was pretty much it before Callis replaced him.

However, it's crazy that he was the 1st victim of the "we need you to be able to wrestle even though we hired you to just manage".

Even the name of name of the group was weird. I mean the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was not a white supremacist group and it did not control a militia or whatever that group was supposed to be or stand for.

Did Vince have financial interests in South Africa in the 80ies that suffered by the end of Apartheid? Because this really reeks like Vince's MO: Vince hates paying taxes -> here comes Irwin R. Schyster, he distrusts lawyers -> hello, Clarence Mason, he feels televangelists are a joke -> hey Brucy, I've got an idea, he is a lifelong republican -> let's put some Clinton impersonator on PPV, Lawler, make as many Clinton jokes as you can think of on Raw, how about having Gennifer Flowers at Wrestlemania 14? fake Clinton was such a great idea, let's repeat this with a fake Obama etc. etc. etc.

[Cobra Commander]

15 minutes ago, AxB said:

According to his personal Twitter, Lord White has been living the gimmick for his entire online existence. VERY racist, VERY homophobic. For YEARS.

I mean, that's not surprising. Congrats to Lord White on his future work as the Jimmy Hart of Zimbabwe Wrestling.

1 hour ago, Log said:

When Kamala was doing territories, was it his responsibility to bring the Kim Chee gear with him everywhere he went?

I don't think Friday and Kim Chee had the same mask, but I figure that they could at least pair him with a manager and find a generic white/black mask and a safari outfit if they were suiting up a dude as his handler.

[Elsalvajeloco]

32 minutes ago, Robert S said:

Even the name of name of the group was weird. I mean the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was not a white supremacist group and it did not control a militia or whatever that group was supposed to be or stand for.

Did Vince have financial interests in South Africa in the 80ies that suffered by the end of Apartheid? Because this really reeks like Vince's MO: Vince hates paying taxes -> here comes Irwin R. Schyster, he distrusts lawyers -> hello, Clarence Mason, he feels televangelists are a joke -> hey Brucy, I've got an idea, he is a lifelong republican -> let's put some Clinton impersonator on PPV, Lawler, make as many Clinton jokes as you can think of on Raw, how about having Gennifer Flowers at Wrestlemania 14? fake Clinton was such a great idea, let's repeat this with a fake Obama etc. etc. etc.

I really wonder if had WWF been doing more international touring then if the Sun City Super Bowl would have been destination for WWF. I say that because boxing in the early half of the 80s, there was some interesting developments to say the least. I believe one of the first integrated sporting events in South Africa was a world heavyweight title fight with Gerrie Coetzee vs. "Big" John Tate in 1979(!). That drew 86,000 people. Then, the next two times Coetzee fought in South Africa in world title bouts (one another failed attempt to win a world title and the other as champion), both were at the Sun City Super Bowl during the height of the controversy of international artists performing there. Now boxing has a long history of sports washing prior to that (Rumble in the Jungle and the Thrilla in Manila being the most famous examples), but the way Coetzee's promoter at the time Bob Arum justified it is was, "well, I mean this is going to be above board and on the level". So you had black South Africans there with Afrikaners. However, the first several rows was just the latter. Even Rock Newman pre Riddick Bowe took Dwight Muhammad Qawi over to South Africa to fight for a cruiserweight title at Sun City Super Bowl in 1985. So you have this weird thing where African-Americans like Qawi, Tate, and Mike Weaver are going over to fight in a place where a bunch of black people are being brutally oppressed and under the thumb of a racist government. It's kinda like WWE bringing over female wrestlers to Saudi Arabia, talking about progression and growth, and then they still have to cover up.

If some South African hotel magnate would have thrown money at Vince to do Hogan vs. whomever, would Vince have moved on doing a deal?

31 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

I mean, that's not surprising. Congrats to Lord White on his future work as the Jimmy Hart of Zimbabwe Wrestling.

I don't think Friday and Kim Chee had the same mask, but I figure that they could at least pair him with a manager and find a generic white/black mask and a safari outfit if they were suiting up a dude as his handler.

I was looking at who was Friday, and apparently, it was just some dude who has some connection with pro wrestling at like a lower level wrestler.

[Technico Support]

Vince did Saudi shows despite the outcry after the Kashoggi murder.  He absolutely would have played Sun City.

[Cobra Commander]

Hulk Hogan vs Colonel DeBeers with Hogan saying he's gonna slam DeBeers so hard that it causes Nelson Mandela to be released from prison

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, Cobra Commander said:

Hulk Hogan vs Colonel DeBeers with Hogan saying he's gonna slam DeBeers so hard that it causes Nelson Mandela to be released from prison

Man, if folks thought Hogan fumbled the steroid topic on Arsenio, those apartheid questions would have made it look like he was coming apart at the seams.

[Infinit]

Great Bock story. I've never heard of this before. 

 

[Mister TV]

30 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I really wonder if had WWF been doing more international touring then if the Sun City Super Bowl would have been destination for WWF. I say that because boxing in the early half of the 80s, there was some interesting developments to say the least. I believe one of the first integrated sporting events in South Africa was a world heavyweight title fight with Gerrie Coetzee vs. "Big" John Tate in 1979(!). That drew 86,000 people. Then, the next two times Coetzee fought in South Africa in world title bouts (one another failed attempt to win a world title and the other as champion), both were at the Sun City Super Bowl during the height of the controversy of international artists performing there. Now boxing has a long history of sports washing prior to that (Rumble in the Jungle and the Thrilla in Manila being the most famous examples), but the way Coetzee's promoter at the time Bob Arum justified it is was, "well, I mean this is going to be above board and on the level". So you had black South Africans there with Afrikaners. However, the first several rows was just the latter. Even Rock Newman pre Riddick Bowe took Dwight Muhammad Qawi over to South Africa to fight for a cruiserweight title at Sun City Super Bowl in 1985. So you have this weird thing where African-Americans like Qawi, Tate, and Mike Weaver are going over to fight in a place where a bunch of black people are being brutally oppressed and under the thumb of a racist government. It's kinda like WWE bringing over female wrestlers to Saudi Arabia, talking about progression and growth, and then they still have to cover up.

If some South African hotel magnate would have thrown money at Vince to do Hogan vs. whomever, would Vince have moved on doing a deal?

Larry Holmes refused to fight Coetzee in Sun City, when they decided to have the fight in Las Vegas the financial backing fell through.

It would have taken a lot of money for Vince to let Hogan go over to South Africa, the WWF's house show business with Hogan on top was printing money, that's pretty much the reason Hogan stopped doing the New Japan tours. I could see Vince sending Andre, Studd and a mishmash of low carders over though.

[Elsalvajeloco]

16 minutes ago, Mister TV said:

Larry Holmes refused to fight Coetzee in Sun City, when they decided to have the fight in Las Vegas the financial backing fell through.

It would have taken a lot of money for Vince to let Hogan go over to South Africa, the WWF's house show business with Hogan on top was printing money, that's pretty much the reason Hogan stopped doing the New Japan tours. I could see Vince sending Andre, Studd and a mishmash of low carders over though.

That's what is compelling though. When it comes to sportswashing, the folks in control only tend to want the biggest names possible. For example, a story I saw last night for an upcoming card between Dmitry Bivol vs. Artur Beterbiev, the undercards going to be a best of five between Matchroom (Eddie Hearn's promotional outfit) vs. Frank Warren's Queensberry Promotions. That itself is amazing cause it would be like, "hey, pro wrestling folks, can we get WWE vs. AEW matches...I know you're direct competitors as can be, but make it happen." Then next thing is the guy who has been the lead for Saudi Arabia is obsessed with heavyweight boxing (and said as much in the story) and is responsible for choosing a couple of those matchups of the 5 vs. 5 series. And his love for HW boxing is reflected over the last year and change cause we have had Fury vs. Ngannou, Joshua vs. Ngannou, a stacked multi-promotional end of the year card last year, and a bunch more coming like the Bivol vs. Beterbiev and Fury vs. Usyk. The one good thing is they are somehow able to untangle years of promotional beefs and even political issues (i.e. WBC allowing a Russian in Bivol to fight for a WBC title that Beterbiev holds when they refused to let Russians to fight for their titles since the Ukraine conflict started). However, it's backed with all the bad that comes with it.

I don't see a scenario where they request Hogan and then Vince comes back with everyone EXCEPT Hogan. And then they accept it.

[zendragon]

1 hour ago, Robert S said:

Even the name of name of the group was weird. I mean the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was not a white supremacist group and it did not control a militia or whatever that group was supposed to be or stand for.

Did Vince have financial interests in South Africa in the 80ies that suffered by the end of Apartheid? Because this really reeks like Vince's MO: Vince hates paying taxes -> here comes Irwin R. Schyster, he distrusts lawyers -> hello, Clarence Mason, he feels televangelists are a joke -> hey Brucy, I've got an idea, he is a lifelong republican -> let's put some Clinton impersonator on PPV, Lawler, make as many Clinton jokes as you can think of on Raw, how about having Gennifer Flowers at Wrestlemania 14? fake Clinton was such a great idea, let's repeat this with a fake Obama etc. etc. etc.

Well they did run South Africa I believe around 96 when they where running Kuwait ect cause they couldn’t draw domestically 

[Curt McGirt]

1 hour ago, Robert S said:

Even the name of name of the group was weird. I mean the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was not a white supremacist group and it did not control a militia or whatever that group was supposed to be or stand for.

Did Vince have financial interests in South Africa in the 80ies that suffered by the end of Apartheid? Because this really reeks like Vince's MO: Vince hates paying taxes -> here comes Irwin R. Schyster, he distrusts lawyers -> hello, Clarence Mason, he feels televangelists are a joke -> hey Brucy, I've got an idea, he is a lifelong republican -> let's put some Clinton impersonator on PPV, Lawler, make as many Clinton jokes as you can think of on Raw, how about having Gennifer Flowers at Wrestlemania 14? fake Clinton was such a great idea, let's repeat this with a fake Obama etc. etc. etc.

See, he has two levels of humor, not just poop jokes. The other one is edgelord political mockery.

[Mister TV]

12 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

That's what is compelling though. When it comes to sportswashing, the folks in control only tend to want the biggest names possible. For example, a story I saw last night for an upcoming card between Dmitry Bivol vs. Artur Beterbiev, the undercards going to be a best of five between Matchroom (Eddie Hearn's promotional outfit) vs. Frank Warren's Queensberry Promotions. That itself is amazing cause it would be like, "hey, pro wrestling folks, can we get WWE vs. AEW matches...I know you're direct competitors as can be, but make it happen." Then next thing is the guy who has been the lead for Saudi Arabia is obsessed with heavyweight boxing (and said as much in the story) and is responsible for choosing a couple of those matchups of the 5 vs. 5 series. And his love for HW boxing is reflected over the last year and change cause we have had Fury vs. Ngannou, Joshua vs. Ngannou, a stacked multi-promotional end of the year card last year, and a bunch more coming like the Bivol vs. Beterbiev and Fury vs. Usyk. The one good thing is they are somehow able to untangle years of promotional beefs and even political issues (i.e. WBC allowing a Russian in Bivol to fight for a WBC title that Beterbiev holds when they refused to let Russians to fight for their titles since the Ukraine conflict started). However, it's backed with all the bad that comes with it.

I don't see a scenario where they request Hogan and then Vince comes back with everyone EXCEPT Hogan. And then they accept it.

What was going on with Sun City in the 80's was totally different than what Saudi Arabia is doing today. Remember Sun City was basically a casino/golf resort similar to what you'd see in Las Vegas at the time, that's why the majority of acts they were booking like Frank Sinatra and Liza Minnelli were also playing Vegas and Atlantic City, they had boxing for the same reason Las Vegas does, it brings in the high rollers. Yes the South African government was using what was going on in Sun City to improve their image, but they weren't throwing around the type of money Saudi Arabia is today, it was more "see Dolly Parton" is preforming at our version of the Desert Inn or there's a big fight at our version of Caesars Palace.

[clintthecrippler]

I just assume that the Truth Commission is another in the line of Vince struggling with the overall global climate of the 1990s screwing up the "foreign heel" trope since evil Germans and evil Russians had become passe by then. See for example going ridiculously over the top with some of the imagery around Yokozuna when even concerns about Japan overtaking the US an an economic empire had started to quell (was it his squash of Duggan that had the comically dumb "Japanese broadcast celebrating Yokozuna's victory") and "Finnish ecoterrorist" Ludwig Borga. Those felt so much like he was trying to FORCE a new "foreign heel" menace in the wake of prior tropes no longer being relevant. 

[AxB]

You have to bear in mind, in the 80s Thatcher and Reagan considered apartheid South Africa to be a strong political ally. The Reagan White House considered Nelson Mandela to be a terrorist, not a Civil Rights Activist. Margeret Thatcher publically said Nelson Mandela was a terrorist. And that's the political worldview that Vince identifies with.

In his mind, the actual Truth and Reconciliation Commission were the villains, and the post-Apartheid Afrikaners were victims. The fact that the vast majority of people in the Western World don't share that mindset is something that wouldn't have occurred to him. He was probably very surprised that it didn't get over.

[Elsalvajeloco]

10 minutes ago, Mister TV said:

What was going on with Sun City in the 80's was totally different than what Saudi Arabia is doing today. Remember Sun City was basically a casino/golf resort similar to what you'd see in Las Vegas at the time, that's why the majority of acts they were booking like Frank Sinatra and Liza Minnelli were also playing Vegas and Atlantic City, they had boxing for the same reason Las Vegas does, it brings in the high rollers. Yes the South African government was using what was going on in Sun City to improve their image, but they weren't throwing around the type of money Saudi Arabia is today, it was more "see Dolly Parton" is preforming at our version of the Desert Inn or there's a big fight at our version of Caesars Palace.

The last part is why I don't think it's TOTALLY different in Saudi Arabia in that they just had a PFL vs. Bellator. That wasn't a big money event. I mean the closest connection to "hey, this is what we want" is PFL signed Ngannou who was the legit UFC champ when he left the UFC and he just fought Fury and was about to fight Anthony Joshua. However, Ngannou himself wasn't on that show. I think Bivol vs. Beterbiev is probably lower on that totem pole as well cause those guys really aren't big stars (Beterbiev is kinda a star in Canada, but a lower level star compared guys of the past). They just wanted to make the fight happen. The concerts, yes, were just a revolving door for tourism. However, you start stealing fights from Atlantic City and the Hilton and Caesars in Vegas, then you're were dead serious because those weren't cheap.

And that's not to say Andre wouldn't have been a get cause he was a big star. However, if that was the case, they probably would have went over to South Africa before they actually did several year later.

However, I am guessing the point is whether they viewed WWF as just another entertainment attraction or a real live sporting event and how much Hulkamania transcended pop culture worldwide.

[odessasteps]

Plus, in the 70s and 80s, an American performer could probably perform in Sun City without it getting much attention at home. Similar to them making commercials in Japan. Almost no one in America saw Sean Connery doing Japanese tire commercials. 

id bet most Americans didn’t even know what or where Sun City was until the music video. 
 

 

(And now this will be stuck in my head all day)

 

[JLowe]

28 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

Plus, in the 70s and 80s, an American performer could probably perform in Sun City without it getting much attention at home. Similar to them making commercials in Japan. Almost no one in America saw Sean Connery doing Japanese tire commercials. 

id bet most Americans didn’t even know what or where Sun City was until the music video. 
 

 

(And now this will be stuck in my head all day)

 

There are some pretty solid songs on the album, I had it on cassette back in the day.

[Elsalvajeloco]

I was thinking looking at the screencap...is that Nona Hendryx?

It is.

A great artist unfortunately saddled with the label "one of the other two people in LaBelle who wasn't Patti LaBelle".

[Mister TV]

1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

The last part is why I don't think it's TOTALLY different in Saudi Arabia in that they just had a PFL vs. Bellator. That wasn't a big money event. I mean the closest connection to "hey, this is what we want" is PFL signed Ngannou who was the legit UFC champ when he left the UFC and he just fought Fury and was about to fight Anthony Joshua. However, Ngannou himself wasn't on that show. I think Bivol vs. Beterbiev is probably lower on that totem pole as well cause those guys really aren't big stars (Beterbiev is kinda a star in Canada, but a lower level star compared guys of the past). They just wanted to make the fight happen. The concerts, yes, were just a revolving door for tourism. However, you start stealing fights from Atlantic City and the Hilton and Caesars in Vegas, then you're were dead serious because those weren't cheap.

And that's not to say Andre wouldn't have been a get cause he was a big star. However, if that was the case, they probably would have went over to South Africa before they actually did several year later.

However, I am guessing the point is whether they viewed WWF as just another entertainment attraction or a real live sporting event and how much Hulkamania transcended pop culture worldwide.

They didn't really steal fights from Las Vegas(AC didn't really become a player for big fights until later in the 80's) they had Coetzee fights since he was South African and non-marquee weight divisions like cruiserweight, those fights would be off strip at places like the Showboat or during the afternoon at some random arena so it could be on CBS or ABC.

Hogan did work Sun City against Terry Funk in 1982, the poster is floating around the internet, it was playing off his Rocky III fame. I don't think the WWF was even on South African tv back then, remember they didn't get television until 1976 and what they did get was limited since the government controlled it. Vince most likely never had to deal with that dilemma since they didn't have tv there, even then I don't think he'd ship Hogan off for a random payday when he was drawing huge houses in North American arenas, he pulled Hogan from New Japan and never sent him overseas until business was down after the Gulf War angle.

Edited March 25 by Mister TV