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Elimination Chamber XIII - 2/18/2023


Dolfan in NYC

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34 minutes ago, EVA said:

Lol. Noted super chill and not at all vindictive guy, Paul Levesque.

I'm not expecting him to be the exact same as the sort of guy he was (or was rumored to be) 10-20 years ago. Maybe having some time away from the scene due to the whole near heart failure will impact him enough? (I'm adding extra words since obviously there'll be some emotional impact from almost dying)

As for the overall product, is it safe to say that the WWE is sorta out of the "Triple H is undoing some recent mistakes" phase and more towards him setting a path for better or worse?

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I think the other point about fans needing to riot like they did Bryan probably doesn't hold weight when you consider the broader picture of it coinciding with the launch of the Network and the requirement for a certain level of subscribers as promised to stockholders amongst fans (and cringe Foley) destroying their TVs and cancelling their subscription en masse. 

By contrast, when they're clearly out here just trying to sell the company, that level of give a fuck just isn't there.

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3 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

The Bloodline story is just as much about Jey/Roman or more so than Sami/Roman.. 

I'm completely dumbfounded that people can't see how The Bloodline is crumbling and Roman is ripe for the pickings..  that's the story.

Sami has only been a part of The Bloodline for about a year, and didn't even get beyond comic relief for several months into it. The Bloodline itself has been around over a year longer and we're all tired of hearing every few minutes he's had the belts for whatever number of days. I'd even say that Sami's main story in The Bloodline is with Jey, as he was always the one who went to bat for Sami and it's been demonstrated they have the much closer dynamic with eachother than any other parties involved. Jey also has the history of schism with the rest of his family. There are a lot of moving parts in the story and Sami is just one of them.

The story with Sami wasn't nearly as hot as it is now when Cody initially came back and got super over. After the cage match with Seth he was probably one of the more over guys in the company. As someone who was incredibly tired of Cody in AEW I was fine with him coming back to the main event here as everything about him fit.

3 hours ago, EVA said:

The behind the scenes perception/politics of Cody winning the title continue to fascinate me. Vince brought Cody back and saw big things for him while HHH was out of the loop in talent relations. But now Vince is (allegedly) gone and HHH has the book. Well, Cody spent quite a bit of his time away from WWE taking not-so-thinly-veiled shots at HHH and Roman.

THOSE dudes really gonna let Cody stand tall to end Mania?

I can see all parties involved putting aside whatever beef they may have when it comes to what's Best For Business.

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I know "am I the only one" is an annoying type of question because you're probably never the only one, but am I the only one who preferred babyface Roman that was desperately clinging on to the imagery of the Shield and getting mixed reactions? I think part of it is my preference for weird misshapen objects like that rather than things as cleanly black-and-white as Roman's current presentation. But it's more than that. Maybe it's something that they started doing more and more of during the PC/Thunderdome days and whatnot (and maybe someone who was watching more of that can confirm or deny), but Roman's matches don't feel like wrestling matches to me -- They're like plodding, overly-verbal-for-the-TV-mic plays that just happen to be taking place in a wrestling match. And I remember Roman used to have what I conceive of as wrestling matches. Weird babyface Roman that some people found off-putting probably would have had a more satisfying match with Sami last night, correct? There certainly wouldn't be the worst kind of slow, flat, nothing heat that Roman seems to enjoy these days. The road here might not have been as hot and satisfying, but there's a better Roman Reigns-Sami Zayn match in them. 

I don't know. I used to have Roman matches I really would like to have seen. I'd have liked to have seen Roman vs Omega at one point. The king WWE guy vs the kind non-WWE guy at one time, fun clash of styles. Not so much with this Roman though, even if this is what the king WWE guy does now. 

Regardless, the MVP was Mrs Sami Zayn. A great "spouse who isn't part of the show and is very concerned" performance. If they're going to go for very heavy drama, that stuff plays well. Happy for Sami getting the push too. The match? I'm happy some people were satisfied, but not for me. 

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Depends. The Sami match was definitely more of a story focused drama rather than physical based drama, but Roman's matches with Bryan and Riddle were both very much wrestling matches. Sami/Roman from years back on Raw was pretty enjoyable and I was hoping to see something similar but bigger, but I can't complain about last night because I do enjoy shit talking posing heel drama as well. Last night in particular was something you don't get often so it was appreciated even if not perfect. 

Edited by Eivion
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I'm someone who absolutely adores Rick Rude hitting a move and then taunting the crowd, swiveling his hips, etc on repeat or Stevie Ray hitting one move and then walking around shit talking the crowd.. so yeah... 

What Roman has been doing is right up my alley and i would go as far to say that he NEEDS to stall and talk shit and just be a complete prick during these matches with Sami and Cody because The Bloodline was getting to be too cool.. there were a million 1's up in the air at these shows and that is not great long term, we saw how nWo fell into the trap after a while of no clear separation between the face and heel dynamics of all the characters.

In order for Roman to get the "Fuck You Roman!" Chants and engage the crowds with the babyface, he needs to be that bastard.

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There's taunting and then there's borderline reciting prepared lines. This stance isn't anti-taunt or shit-talk. We all appreciate that when Mark Henry charges for air, you keep your bill paid. It's wrestling, Ric Flair getting heated and going off on a "fat boy" in the crowd or MJF taunting "the poors" is part of the sauce. There's a distinction between that and what this was, or what I remember the Roman-Jey matches being. People praised those two also, but it's definitely a case of laying stuff on VERY thick in a very scripted and almost rehearsed manner. I don't remember WWE in-ring storytelling always being this heavy-handed, even when it was being heavy-handed. 

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Baba insisted that Kawada couldn't beat Misawa until they could do it at the Tokyo Dome and so the greatest story ever told ended with a *** match in 1998 instead of an absolute barn burner in 95 when both guys were at the top of their game. Sometimes you just don't wanna fuck around with this stuff for too many years or insist that a thing can only be pulled off properly if it happens at Mania. 

 

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Just to chime in on the Cody/Triple H "beef" stemming from Cody "targeting" him by destroying the throne.

Triple H had to have loved that shit. When your ego is the size of his and your mentor is Vince McMahon himself, the fact that the other company is taking shots at you and not at Cena or Roman or Vince means that you are the guy that is symbolically "The 'Fed."

Cody Rhodes could've come out and mocked the Undertaker. He could've come out and done the "Vince walk." He could've done any number of things to point out that the WWE was still all about nostalgia and main eventers from 15 years ago and part-timers and that AEW was all about the future. 

But he used symbols linked to Triple H. If you're Triple H, that's not a scathing indictment, its a form of flattery. 

 

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2 hours ago, John from Cincinnati said:

but Roman's matches don't feel like wrestling matches to me -- They're like plodding, overly-verbal-for-the-TV-mic plays that just happen to be taking place in a wrestling match. 

It’s not wrestling. It’s glorious Sports Entertainment. It’s surrounding the concepts and themes of wrestling, but the show is about making movies. This was a great episode. Tune in next week, sponsored by C4 Energy.

edit to add: I’m not fully being sarcastic. WWE is a whole different genre. The amount of mid match characters stopping to smack talk each other or pose to the cameras is a thing throughout the show. 

Edited by Octopus
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Yeah @John from Cincinnati Bloodline Roman matches almost universally stink because they inevitably turn into community theatre instead of wresting.

I won’t get to watch the Sami match until tomorrow, so no judgment on that yet, but the KO match at the Rumble was dog shit. And they had some good matches in the past pre-Bloodline.

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Honestly, I'd rather have mid match shit talking and character work for the back row than a non-stop parade of "bangers" just for the sake of it.  It's probably because I'm a wrestling boomer and liked it better when people didn't chase snowflakes and told actual stories that weren't "how many times can I kick out of a finisher".

 

Not saying WWE doesn't do that *stares straight at Brock*, but I've been somewhat appreciative of focusing more on characater work than getting 2000 moves in.

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5 minutes ago, Raziel said:

Honestly, I'd rather have mid match shit talking and character work for the back row than a non-stop parade of "bangers" just for the sake of it. 

Give me both. I don’t think “wrestling” should be one thing. Give me a buffet of different styles and types of pacing. And/or different companies that present different philosophies of bookings and match types. 
This path month has been wonderful having the Bloodline segments on one show and Danielson epics on the other. Gunther chipping with one company and the Elite sprinting on the other. Such a fun time to be a wrestler. Even the stuff that doesn’t do it for me, I know enjoyment isn’t far away. 

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I'm someone who loved The Ultimate Warrior vs. Macho Man as a kid and on rewatch it holds up.. it will always hold up. It's not nostalgic to me, it's pro wrestling.. 

Pro wrestling comes in various sub-genres and the best events to me are the ones that explore various sub-genres.  

I don't want 8 "bangers" either.. I want a match with limbwork followed by a match with mid match character work and shit talk. 

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5 hours ago, John from Cincinnati said:

 Roman's matches don't feel like wrestling matches to me -- They're like plodding, overly-verbal-for-the-TV-mic plays that just happen to be taking place in a wrestling match. 

For what it's worth, I don't watch enough WWE to say one way or the other but 1) this is definitely an extremely apt description of his 1/2 of last night's match, and 2) this actually perfectly describes everything I hated about post-back injury HBK matches full of emoting and bad acting and overselling and audible talking and not very much compelling wrestling (including the Taker stuff it's everyone's job to drool over -- speaking of "am I the only one"). 

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I wish I had the time to write a deeper critical analysis of the Roman/Sami story, because for all of the fawning over the storytelling, nobody (that I’ve read yet) has sniffed out the far more interesting stuff going on under the surface—specifically, the way the story changed after Vince was forced out and what that change says about Vince, HHH, and their relationship to each other.

I think writers tend to reveal a lot about themselves through their work, whether they intend to or not. So, consider…

In Vince’s version, Sami is a bumbling, wannabe family member, a hanger-on. He’s a joke, and the punchline is that he’s never going to REALLY be accepted, no matter how hard he tries. Roman lets him hang around because he’s amusing and an occasionally useful idiot.

In HHH’s version, Sami is cast in a more sympathetic light. He’s a put upon hero who jumps through every hoop, endures every taunt, and compromises his own values to earn Roman’s respect and affection, but is met with second-guessing, derision, threats, and suffering, building to a breaking point where Sami stabs him in the back and attempts to take away what matters most to him.

Gosh, it’s almost like Roman is Vince, Sami is HHH, and the Bloodline has been their own story as viewed from each of their perspectives.

If someone from The Ringer is lurking this thread, you can have that idea for free, but I’m expecting 5,000 words on it by Wednesday.

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I didn’t think the Usos were even allowed into Canada with their DWI convictions! How does the Bloodline avoid Immigration authorities?

Roman’s melodrama is my least favorite genre. I came in with such hope that WWE wouldn’t fuck this up. 

I can only hope the crowd Goldberg / Lesnars the shit out of Cody / Roman. 

it’s not supposed to be this boring

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Also Jey Uso is clearly at least *a little bit* Stephanie in HHH’s version (though that doesn’t line up as cleanly) but was maybe a Shane stand-in during the early days of Vince’s Bloodline.

Edited by EVA
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Is the argument whether Sami is a top guy or not, or is it whether he should be the one to end Roman's title reign? Because those are two different questions with two different answers in my mind.

But no matter the question, I don't see Jey Uso being a yes to either of them like some believe.

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I went back and watched the full show and it was really good overall. They can book Brock vs Lashley over and over like Ziggler vs Kofi back in the day and I won't get sick of it. I'd rather see them against each other at Mania instead of Lashley seemingly being fodder for Wyatt. The Men's Chamber was dope , Everyone got shine. Tez is ready to break out but I also think Dawkins has improved too so if they split it might be a good showcase for both. 

Beth looked like a beast out there too.

Roman is top tier but so was Sami. I agree with Bryan Alvarez that this was a once in a lifetime moment to put the belt on Sami but they didn't. I'm sure he will be Champ at some point soon but it won't be the same as if he won tonight.

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