Elimination Chamber XIII - 2/18/2023

[odessasteps]

You can be popular and a merch seller but not be a main eventer. 

Two words: handsome Jimmy.

[Hamhock]

8 minutes ago, Mario said:

I’ll take your word for it, but I rewatched the finish a half-hour ago and didn’t really notice much of that.  Crowd put heat on Roman (he is a cheating heel, after all) and perked up after KO came out and ran off the Bloodline.

Yeah, absolutely- all of the post-match stuff worked fine. And it could have just been my initial impression in real-time was skewed.

I’m totally fine with Roman retaining/dropping it to Cody - I just think there was a better way to get there last night. Hell, Sammy could have lost clean! Just have him make one little mistake that costs him. Or a tiny amount of chicanery (Sammy gets his foot on the rope; Heyman pushes it off).

Edited February 19, 2023 by Hamhock

[For Great Justice]

I know we keep starting new threads tight but it would be interesting to see a poll on this topic (whether or not Cody / this build warrants a title swap at Mania). Seems legitimately 50/50. 

[HarryArchieGus]

10 hours ago, jaedmc said:

It was the most passionate anyone has been for a main event match in the WWE in years. But they'd rather manufacture a different moment. I haven't enjoyed a Wrestlemania in years because I can just feel them pressuring everyone to feel all the feelings, even when the feelings aren't there.

Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how this decision effects Cody's babyface heat. I suspect the broader appealling WWE universe that has thus far cheered the American Nightmare's act and wordy scripts may turn sooner than later. Maybe not. We'll see.  

This was indeed the most interested I've been in a WWE match in nearly two decades (RVD-CENA from ECW ONS being the last I can remember). I dug what I saw until the ref bumps and illogical WWE style overbooking began. I don't give a shit about anything other than Zayn in this bloodline angle, so I skimmed passed the Jey stuff to Sami's misfire on Jey. Yeah, that was a dumb and deflating (tho totally expected) finish, but easily explainable by WWE's standards of operations. And by the viewers that fully accept them. I'm of passive interest, skimming at least 70% of the weekly TVs for bright spots in this generally mundane 'hot' product. It's necessary to never forget you're watching WWE when you're watching WWE. 

Edited February 19, 2023 by HarryArchieGus

[Mario]

10 minutes ago, Hamhock said:

Yeah, absolutely- all of the post-match stuff worked fine. And it could have just been my initial impression in real-time was skewed.

I’m totally fine with Roman retaining/dropping it to Cody - I just think there was a better way to get there last night. Hell, Sammy could have lost clean! Just have him make one little mistake that costs him. Or a tiny amount of chicanery (Sammy gets his foot on the rope; Heyman pushes it off).

I think the play is to continue Sami & the Bloodline story after WM and let Sami finalllyyyy get the big win in spring or summer after Roman drops the title.  Really no reason the story has to end here or at WM.  My only gripe with continuing the feud is that I’d prefer to see Jey as Roman’s post-WM feud.  Though I’m skeptical they’ll break up the Usos for any length of time.  Also, Meltzer claimed two years ago (when they started the Bloodline angle and Jey feuded with Roman for a bit) that one of the reasons Jey’s babyface turn seemed to end so abruptly was that Roman, Jimmy, and Jay didn’t want to feud with each other.
 

[StarChief EagleDemon]

People always say good stories have a beginning, middle, and end. If this is the end for the Sami part of this story, the conclusion is that no matter how much hope there is, how much you believe in yourself, and how much everyone loves and believes in you, forces will always work against you. You're just not going to win. Move on to something else.

What a nice story! (The best in wrestling history, I guess?)

[Casey]

I hated Cody in AEW but I really don't see the argument against him being the one to dethrone Reigns on a big stage like WrestleMania. He's basically John Cena with how he carries himself outside of the ring in media appearances and whatnot. I could see the crowd on Monday in Ottawa maybe being a little hostile towards Cody because of Sami not winning, but I don't think ALL of the markets they visit will do it ala Daniel Bryan in late 2013/2014. I'm not even really convinced that Cody will get booed at all. Not yet, anyway. People will get tired of his super duper babyface act eventually, but it's still basically brand new and he has a lot of crowd support from the limited viewing I've seen.

I love Sami Zayn, but he's not the guy to do this. The Bloodline thing isn't even ABOUT him, from what I've gathered. He joined relatively late in the story. I don't think Jey Uso is the one to do it either, but he has a bigger role to play than anyone else not named Cody or Roman. Daniel Bryan got the B+ player thing as a gimmick, but I honestly see Jey & Sami (in WWE anyway) as that in reality. Maybe they'll hold the title for a few months eventually, but to be the one to end a 900+ day title reign? I don't think so, personally. Jey's role should be dissolving the Bloodline for good and helping Cody (or whoever, ultimately) end Roman's reign of terror and then go on to send Roman on a vacation for a little while.

Maybe I'm way off base. I'm just now watching WWE PPVs again on a regular basis, and I don't watch the weekly TV. But these are my thoughts based off that and reading about it on here and Wreddit, and seeing clips over the last couple of years.

[odessasteps]

Much like real life, the babyface doesn't always win. 

[Octopus]

I think there are many ways this can play out that will be both entertaining and story fulfilling. 

Saying that, if Cody dethrones Roman then Nick Khan and HHH unlock Ricky Starks and other AEW secret playable characters. It will be well worth it.

[StarChief EagleDemon]

45 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

Much like real life, the babyface doesn't always win. 

100 percent true. It's the age old debate, isn't it? Should a certain type of entertainment hold up a mirror to real life or be escapist nonsense?

My vote doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, but when it comes to wrestling my vote is for escapist nonsense.

[cubbymark]

I didn't hate the Rudy Charles ref bump as much as most people did. He was smooshed in the corner and took several back elbows before clumping in typical ref fashion. 

Would I have liked Sami to win? Sure. Did it make sense to beat Roman now? I don't think so. I'd rather see this than anything with Bray Wyatt. 

Montez Ford came out of that chamber looking like a million bucks. The sky is the limit for him. Logan Paul is such a great scumbag that he fits wrestling like a glove. 

[NoFistsJustFlips]

3 hours ago, Andrew POE! said:

The problem is WWE (and let's say it - Vince McMahon) sees Sami Zayn only as a midcarder.

Vince still has nothing to do with creative as of now. Remember he was gone in July. Which is before Sami was even paired with Roman on screen yet. But you do speak to a larger point. This as Triple H's first big creative test. Would he keep the status quo and do what WWE has done for 20 years now? Or would he be the guy that actually rewarded the talent for grabbing that brass ring? Well we got our answer. The day to day narratives have more focus now, but the booking philosophy is still the same.

And to a larger extent, I think this has more to do with Bruce Prichard who is the director of the writing staff. Triple H still has to okay whatever gets pitched. But I really think it's Bruce who doesn't see Sami as worth the Foley moment. He's the one talking everyone out of it. That's just baseless speculation, but his 40 years in the business has been molded by Vince. I really think he is the Vince proxy in this scenario.

[Greggulator]

I was jumping up and down like a maniac with each near fall while wearing my NXT Sami shirt while texting with my friends and family about the match. I started the match with tears in my eyes at the joy of Sami’s ovation. I ended with tears in my eyes at the heartbreak of the loss. I am 45.

That was absolutely magical. Every single second of it. Every single second since Sami offered her services to The Bloodline.

That is my Match of the Decade right there.

[NoFistsJustFlips]

Here is why this isn't the same as The Yes Movement and Cody won't get booed out of the buildings. In 2014 the TV audience was around 4.5 million. That vocal audience that were passionate about Bryan are by and large gone. They moved onto New Japan / the indys /AEW later on / just left wrestling. WWE sill gets about 2.5 million as an audience for Smackdown. But the 2.5 million left are not the rebellious sort.

Cody is legitimately over and well liked by the WWE audience. Not all of that 2.5 million, but the majority. So they're not going to revolt against him. And the vocally displeased fans just aren't there anymore to try and force their desires on the company. Had someone as well liked as Cody gotten Bryan's spot in 2014 there wouldn't have been a revolt then either. It's because the direction was Orton vs a returning part timer that "quit on wrestling". Batista had some of that 2003 Hollywood Rock heat. The fans hadn't learned to forgive and admire his movie career yet.

Edited February 19, 2023 by NoFistsJustFlips

[Niners Fan in CT]

I HATE HATE talking the business side of things but some of these takes that WWE screwed themselves because Sami didn't win..  Cody is the #2 merch mover in the company.. Cody is selling out house shows.. The Bloodline is about more than Sami Zayn. 

It feels like people are now saying it's badly booked simply because YOUR guy didn't win. That's not how this works. 

Edited February 19, 2023 by Niners Fan in CT

[StuntmanCrowley]

the more I mull over this, i really think that they missed the boat, badly.

[NoFistsJustFlips]

2 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I HATE HATE talking the business side of things but some of these takes that WWE screwed themselves because Sami didn't win..  Cody is the #2 merch mover in the company.. Cody is selling out house shows.. The Bloodline is about more than Sami Zayn. 

It feels like people are now saying it's badly booked simply because YOUR guy didn't win. That's not how this works. 

I'm one that's on board with the Sami not winning choice.

I think the vocal displeasure here is less to do with this specific scenario, and more to do with WWE just spamming the same thing over and over. For 20+ years in these scenarios they don't pull the trigger. They stick to the manufactured plans and don't change course if something gets hot. I'm not even saying they are always wrong for doing so, or even in this specific scenario. I just think having excitement in something not fulfilled over and over and over rubs people the wrong way.

We all look back fondly on Eddie Guerrero beating Brock Lesnar for the title in a similar situation. Some people would like to see more of that out of the box booking. And WWE just never does it anymore. That's what the issue is more so than someone's guy losing or people not being down with Cody. Just for once people want to have a hand in changing the stories and not being spoonfed what they'll be told to like.

[Mario]

10 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I HATE HATE talking the business side of things but some of these takes that WWE screwed themselves because Sami didn't win..  Cody is the #2 merch mover in the company.. Cody is selling out house shows.. The Bloodline is about more than Sami Zayn. 

It feels like people are now saying it's badly booked simply because YOUR guy didn't win. That's not how this works. 

Also worth noting that the Rami Sebei . the pro wrestler who plays a character named Sami Zayn on tv - is making the most money he ever has and is part of one of the hottest angles in company history. Sami is far mote over than he was just a year ago and is moving a lot of merch.  This isn’t working out poorly for Sami/Rami by any stretch of the imagination and putting the title on him probably wouldn’t drastically improve his standing.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Mario

[Andrew POE!]

3 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Vince still has nothing to do with creative as of now. Remember he was gone in July. Which is before Sami was even paired with Roman on screen yet. But you do speak to a larger point. This as Triple H's first big creative test. Would he keep the status quo and do what WWE has done for 20 years now? Or would he be the guy that actually rewarded the talent for grabbing that brass ring? Well we got our answer. The day to day narratives have more focus now, but the booking philosophy is still the same.

And to a larger extent, I think this has more to do with Bruce Prichard who is the director of the writing staff. Triple H still has to okay whatever gets pitched. But I really think it's Bruce who doesn't see Sami as worth the Foley moment. He's the one talking everyone out of it. That's just baseless speculation, but his 40 years in the business has been molded by Vince. I really think he is the Vince proxy in this scenario.

I guess whenever Bruce Pritchard (who never drew a fucking dime) gets his idiotic podcast started back up, people can direct their ire towards him on this and hopefully Conrad Thompson will read them with his monotone reading voice. "A listener sent into the show this question and I want to get your thoughts. 'You are a fucking idiot for screwing over Sami Zayn. What were you thinking?' *Bruce proceeds to do a Vince McMahon impression or a Dusty Rhodes impression to hopefully distract from the question*"

But even then - sadly, it's just not the same as it was when Daniel Bryan got the World title despite WWE Creative / Head of Creative's efforts. It's still the wrong decision not to have given Bryan the WWE title then and to not given the Undisputed Universal titles to Sami now. It completely screws over the storyline with Sami and the Bloodline. Now the Bloodline will get a muted response when they appear. Roman Reigns will get a muted response (and he'll probably notice and comment on it).

If anything, a Sami Zayn title win would have helped longer term and actually have helped The Bloodline. It would have given them something to chase after and given Reigns something to chase too (or he even could have taken off and let the Usos or Solo Sikoa go after the titles).

[StarChief EagleDemon]

To me, if I view this story in isolation, it feels like they've told us a "feel-bad" story. (They seem to have gotten very good at that over the years.) 

They greatest story in the history of pro-wrestling (as purported by some) is a "feel-bad" story? That's just a weird vibe. 

 

[Niners Fan in CT]

7 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

I'm one that's on board with the Sami not winning choice.

I think the vocal displeasure here is less to do with this specific scenario, and more to do with WWE just spamming the same thing over and over. For 20+ years in these scenarios they don't pull the trigger. They stick to the manufactured plans and don't change course if something gets hot. I'm not even saying they are always wrong for doing so, or even in this specific scenario. I just think having excitement in something not fulfilled over and over and over rubs people the wrong way.

We all look back fondly on Eddie Guerrero beating Brock Lesnar for the title in a similar situation. Some people would like to see more of that out of the box booking. And WWE just never does it anymore. That's what the issue is more so than someone's guy losing or people not being down with Cody. Just for once people want to have a hand in changing the stories and not being spoonfed what they'll be told to like.

I hear you on that but I think fans get mad whether WWE sticks to the script or not..   They have changed plans before and pulled the trigger. Daniel Bryan.  Hell, I was at WM35 when Kofi won and people were crying in the seats around me, it was a moment..  but all anyone wants to discuss online is how he lost to Brock. 

In this scenario, Roman is on a 900-day reign, you have to have a satisfying conclusion to that and I'm not sure Sami was the guy or not.. maybe he is but that doesn't take away from Cody's story or Jay Uso's story... they all have a story to tell, treating Sami's story as the only story that matters is sour grapes.

[Cobra Commander]

I remember when someone on here said that the WWE would elevate AEW if they pushed an AEW midcarder like Cody Rhodes

[Niners Fan in CT]

The Bloodline story is just as much about Jey/Roman or more so than Sami/Roman.. 

I'm completely dumbfounded that people can't see how The Bloodline is crumbling and Roman is ripe for the pickings..  that's the story.

[Belgian_Waffle]

I like Cody and I'm fine with him being the new guy but I also think it's funny that the arguments in favor of "sticking to the plan" and not changing the plan by having Roman lose to Drew in the UK or Sami in MTL are essentially arguing that "the plan" is a 2+ year storyline ending with the coronation of a guy who signed with the company -1 year ago. 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Belgian_Waffle

[For Great Justice]

I gotta think "THE" plan for the Bloodline going back 3 years has always been Roman/Rock fighting over the head of the table. It just hasn't logistically been possible to get there.