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FEBRUARY 2021 Discussion of Wrestling


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2 hours ago, NikoBaltimore said:

You know as much as I want to see Mox vs Kenta I don't feel bad now cancelling NJPW World for a bit.  I hope they change course but if they bring back Scurll along with Owens being there then I may need to reconsider things.  It also won't look that good for AEW if they're associated with a group that has him there.

Yeah, it sucks. Best way to protest is with your wallet. Since Speaking Out movement, there's a number of wrestlers I have nothing to do with any more. Scrull is one as is Riddle and especially the Velveteen Dream.

Edited by The Natural
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NJPW and, well, Japan in general, seems to not care about any scandals except those involving drugs so not surprised Scurll is back in the fold and once travel is opened up he'll get pushed over there. 

Realistically, though, a lot of the Speaking Out guys are going to find themselves back in work inevitably if they continue on with their career, with the exception of Joey Ryan and maybe David Starr who seemed to be the most egregious cases. 

Edit to add further thoughts: it's pretty clear that the WWE won't shy away from signing people with pasts, especially in these cases that aren't cut and dry (like the Riddle stuff). AEW is definitely more hyper-aware of Twitter and social media reaction but a time will come where someone of value who is problematic will be too good to pass up. Hell, I mean, Jericho has engendered a ton of bad will these last few months due to his personal life but they'd be foolish to pull him off TV. 

Edited by Hagan
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My Riddle and Dream shirts make such lovely rags.

I get that every industry has awful people in it but I'm tired of it. Especially someone who had the defense of "it's legal over there". The only power I have is closing my wallet.

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I don't disagree with you and certainly everyone has the right to make their judgment on issues and make a moral stand on what they will and won't support. 

My favorite artist of all time is Ryan Adams and when he got called out in a NYT profile for his sexual manipulation I didn't listen to his music for a long time. Then slowly got back into it and then when he released a new album it was in my rotation. That said, he's still an asshole. It helped that no legal charges got filed against him so I, personally, could contextualize that while being a toxic person he wasn't a criminal. 

I guess my point is that it just has to be hard to constantly weigh whether someone is a good person or not when evaluating whether you'll support an artistic work. 

Of course, we all have different lines. 

I guess my question is: for someone like Scurll - what would it be necessary for him to do to be allowed to resume his career without personally turning off you guys who do draw that line in the sand? Would an apology suffice? Therapy? The woman in question giving her blessing? Is it just an arbitrary amount of time that needs to pass? 

Or is it just a blanket, permanent write off?

Here's what's weird - I don't/can't watch Benoit matches for obvious reasons but don't have that barrier when Snuka shows up on my screen. It's funny how we justify things. 

Edited by Hagan
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I couldn't care less if Scurll works for NJPW. However, if someone like Joey Ryan were to start working for NJPW, then I would care. Joey tried doing the bullshit "I found Christ!" thing while also suing the shit out of a bunch of folks. He's essentially looking to exact revenge against the people he hurt.

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I do not think Ryan or Starr should ever return. They are predators.

That said, for Scurll, I would need to see a few things. I need to see genuine remorse and understanding. Again, so far, all he has said publicly is words justifying and minimalizing what happened. That does no one any good and normalizes it. If he is the same person as he was before the Speaking Out movement then I don't want to see him. If he has actually attempted to make amends and not just tried to wait it out, I am open to him returning. I feel if someone actually tries and genuinely makes an effort then I am OK.

What bugs me is when it's decided that time alone heals all wounds. If he's still the same person, I'm out. It sounds like it's just NJPW not caring so far. 

Edited by Spontaneous
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Also, and this needs to be said, the age of consent in Japan is 13 years old. I may be speaking out of my understanding of Japanese culture but would they have the same moral opprobrium towards Scurll over the age issue as we do in the United States? 

Note: I'm not getting into issues of consent/non-consent which are irrelevant to age but they may look at the Scurll allegation and see it as an unfortunate scandal but nothing disqualifying. 

 

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Ignoring the remark about a trainer who doesn't work there anymore and is irrelevant to this conversation, I think there is the added layer to the allegations against Scrull, that being the victim was a teenage and intoxicated trainee of his. 

Also, NJPW wants a foothold in the USA. I imagine that would be the fanbase that is upset by this. 

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59 minutes ago, Hagan said:

Also, and this needs to be said, the age of consent in Japan is 13 years old. I may be speaking out of my understanding of Japanese culture but would they have the same moral opprobrium towards Scurll over the age issue as we do in the United States? 

Note: I'm not getting into issues of consent/non-consent which are irrelevant to age but they may look at the Scurll allegation and see it as an unfortunate scandal but nothing disqualifying.

I mean, you can buy used schoolgirls' panties from vending machines in Japan. So probably not.

Anyway, I've seen my fair share of Hart Foundation matches and rank a few of them among my favorite matches of all time, and I consider the idea that Neidhart contributed at least much to the team as Bret to be thoroughly worthy of derision. More often than not, he was either actively detracting from matches or clearly being hidden so he wouldn't drag things down too much.

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8 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

I mean, you can buy used schoolgirls' panties from vending machines in Japan. So probably not.

That's a slight exaggeration. They're not really used and those machines are like in super seedy weird areas based on some quick googling. The only way to know for sure is to get @El Gran Gordi's views on it!

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24 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

I mean, you can buy used schoolgirls' panties from vending machines in Japan. So probably not.

Anyway, I've seen my fair share of Hart Foundation matches and rank a few of them among my favorite matches of all time, and I consider the idea that Neidhart contributed at least much to the team as Bret to be thoroughly worthy of derision. More often than not, he was either actively detracting from matches or clearly being hidden so he wouldn't drag things down too much.

Like I said: 80%

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Is there a wrestling promotion that hasn't had scummy characters in it? 

ECW maybe?  No, that doesn't sound right.

WCW?  Well, I mean, they had Hulk Hogan, Chris Benoit, Tank Abbot, and enough drug addicts and steroid abusers to fill a football stadium

WWF?  Looks sideways at Vince and Jimmy Snuka  and cackles

Oh, well.  I guess there's always World Class.  The Von Erichs seem like a pretty wholesome bunch with good values.  Nothing odd going on in that household.

---

Um, Toryumon?  Oh, wait, CIMA named a move after his favorite steroid.  AAA?  Um, we don't want to get into that.  How about Ring of Glory?  They had some sort of religious connection.  

All Japan?  I mean they had Baba and Jumbo and...... well, a lot of yakuza connections, supposedly.

I guess we could try Puerto Rico.  Anyone hear of any sketchy characters in WWC?

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2 hours ago, Spontaneous said:

I do not think Ryan or Starr should ever return. They are predators.

That said, for Scurll, I would need to see a few things. I need to see genuine remorse and understanding. Again, so far, all he has said publicly is words justifying and minimalizing what happened. That does no one any good and normalizes it. If he is the same person as he was before the Speaking Out movement then I don't want to see him. If he has actually attempted to make amends and not just tried to wait it out, I am open to him returning. I feel if someone actually tries and genuinely makes an effort then I am OK.

What bugs me is when it's decided that time alone heals all wounds. If he's still the same person, I'm out. It sounds like it's just NJPW not caring so far. 

I wonder if they run this by the talent first because it's not like wrestling is this single individual thing. The person he's working with likely knows what's up. If I have a problem working with you, you and the company I'm working for would know it.

And I think that's where New Japan (at least the US side) would show their true colors. If they end up shunning someone who had a problem with this, then that would adversely affect their reputation. 

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4 minutes ago, Eoae said:

Is there a wrestling promotion that hasn't had scummy characters in it? 

ECW maybe?  No, that doesn't sound right.

WCW?  Well, I mean, they had Hulk Hogan, Chris Benoit, Tank Abbot, and enough drug addicts and steroid abusers to fill a football stadium

WWF?  Looks sideways at Vince and Jimmy Snuka  and cackles

Oh, well.  I guess there's always World Class.  The Von Erichs seem like a pretty wholesome bunch with good values.  Nothing odd going on in that household.

---

Um, Toryumon?  Oh, wait, CIMA named a move after his favorite steroid.  AAA?  Um, we don't want to get into that.  How about Ring of Glory?  They had some sort of religious connection.  

All Japan?  I mean they had Baba and Jumbo and...... well, a lot of yakuza connections, supposedly.

I guess we could try Puerto Rico.  Anyone hear of any sketchy characters in WWC?

What's your point?  If someone doesn't want to financially support a promotion for whatever their reason, that's their prerogative.  

Also, I personally wouldn't equate steroid users with rapists, murders and racists.

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That brings up a good asterisk about Japan only caring about drug scandals -- it depends on the drugs. 

I've never even heard of Ring of Glory, what's up there? This also brought to mind how "clean" Ring of Honor is and my mind immediately went to Austin Aries being a shithead. Currently they might have the least-sleazy fed in wrestling history, at least as far as we know (and are making an exception for whatever the Briscoes probably say behind closed doors). 

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4 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

That brings up a good asterisk about Japan only caring about drug scandals -- it depends on the drugs. 

I've never even heard of Ring of Glory, what's up there? This also brought to mind how "clean" Ring of Honor is and my mind immediately went to Austin Aries being a shithead. Currently they might have the least-sleazy fed in wrestling history, at least as far as we know (and are making an exception for whatever the Briscoes probably say behind closed doors). 

Yes, clean Ring of Honor.  We should probably ask Taylor Hendrix about how clean it was back there.

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I am skipping a few pages to make this post because I haven't read the thread in a week or so but I will share my anecdotal evidence of Bad Bunny's popularity: I am 33. Like a lot of us on here, I feel out of touch sometimes. I do try to keep up on music. I'm also a kitchen worker. There are some oldtimers in the biz but there's also always an influx of kids (I say kid to mean anyone from like 16-25). Also, a lot of minorities in my area. Bad Bunny plays in many kitchens and servers loveit. The Puerto Rican cooks love it (partially because he gets the girls to dance.) He's a star. The girls asked if he's a wrestler now. If WWE really wanted to get current and find stars who want to be there, the Detroit and Bay Area rap scenes would be good places to start. Sada Baby raps about his bricks being big and white like Brock. He wears SCSA shirts. YN Jay, the Coochie Man, just put a song out called "Monday Night Raw" and he's super popular on YouTube with younger kids. Lil Yachty is an Atlanta guy but has latched onto the Detroit guys. Atlanta guys always namedrop wrestlers (Migos' "Ric Flair Drip"). It's easy. They just are so out of touch.

 

EDIT: To be fair (even though no one associated with the scene will ever read this) I should be saying "Detroit/Flint rappers" as many of these dudes are not from The D. I also should mention that this fantasy is inspired by a selfish desire to see the anarchy that could be Sada and BFB Da Packman (A Flint-to-Houston mailman turned rapper) on national television. And also to somehow see ShittyBoyz Baby Tron get more hype. Obviously, none of this would ever happen. These guys are punchline rappers who clearly are trying to make each other laugh as their first goal, which means a lot of things they say are DEPLORABLE and would cause TV execs to promptly keel over. Not to mention the violence that follows a lot of the current rap scene (I know rap and violence always have gone hand-in-hand but to me it seems worse now than ever), owing to a lot of these dudes continuing to live the street life even as they are blowing up. 

Edited by RazorbladeKiss87
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On 2/22/2021 at 10:05 PM, twiztor said:

mucho gracias!

i was sure my request got buried under the ton of conversation since.  MLW is #1 on my list, as i don't know anything about it. very much looking forward to it.

will probably browse some XPW results and catch what seems interesting. i'm torn on watching TNA, but Raven/Sabu sounds mighty fun....

MLW had a fun L.A. Park/Sabu feud. I can't speak to how well it holds up but those two were just being nuts and beating the shit out of each other plus Fonzie was being his usual Fonzie-self.

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BTW - in one of those things the WWE will never acknowledge technically true

Due to the pandemic and how it basically shut down NXT UK for so long

Gallus has the longest Tag Title reign (of any tag title) in company history

WALTER is the longest reigning NXT UK champ ever

And there was something with Kay Lee Ray too - maybe it was longest women's champ in NXT (both versions)

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