Full Gear V - 11/18/2023

[Zakk_Sabbath]

36 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

Awww. Should I even ask? I'm gonna end up not liking the dude now aren't I? 

FWIW this has only ever been brought up in reference to his WWE release - there was something going around when he was let go about how apparently he was really annoying the shit out of everyone on a bus ride in Europe by talking about his preferred prez candidate, and I seem to remember something else about him really overreacting to a rib (or something comparably innocuous). I've heard nothing about it since - I'm in no way whatsoever defending his reported views at the time or rumored bad behavior, but I feel like it would have definitely come up by now if it were an issue. They could have very easily thanks-but-no-thanks'ed a guy talking about that kinda stuff 'at the office' so to speak.

[Cobra Commander]

2 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

If they had gone 20-25 minutes with no frills and just had a great technical match or match revolved around some limb work it would have been really good and nobody would have complained. 

People would have complained. This is Pro Wrestling afterall.

[Fighting a man with a perm]

Thoughts I scribbled down while watching, apologies if I duplicate anyone else's thoughts - let's put it down to "great minds think alike" and ignore the "fools seldom differ" of it.  

I groaned when Ric flair started punching Christian but cheered massively when Christian smashed that old sex offender in the nuts!  

Love some Chekhov's ring buckle action! Massive victory for OC! He's my Ace! Yuta is such a great prick after the match.  

Big bad Brody Fucking Kingsize! Roooooosh knows how to own a crowd, doesn't he? Cash man, the turnbuckles are not your friend, learn to accept it. Big Bill has shown incredible improvement, it's heartening to see knowing the struggles with mental health he's had.  

Both women's title switches earned big reactions and that's due to the focus on character in the division of late. There's talent there if they're given time and space for creativity. Credit to both Stat and Shida for holding the division on their backs the last few months.  

Absolutely fuck that guy with the Fire Tony Schiavone sign!! YMMV but Ospreay has massive aura and is a brilliant signing in my book.  

Prince Nana getting his own "I didn't do it dancers". Hanger bringing the hate early here! Rare American sports reference from this Mick - hangman seeing all the Lakers colours and thinking he's in the Staples Centre! (Does that work?!). Incredible blood here tonight! Incredible, hate-filled, visceral match! Why then add Brian Cage and Nana nonsense?? Both men deserved better than that level of distraction.   

Oof, the crowd was not into the Elite plus Jericho match at all! On the other hand, they (along with I!) Loved all the MJF melodrama. It's all so over the top but he makes it work.    

[Cobra Commander]

2 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

the Swerve/Page finish unfortunately leaves an opening for a white guy named Hangman to get away with choking out a black man with a chain. And in storyline it would be justified

Actually having the finish be something that Page can’t really do to Swerve down the road isn’t great either. Justified doesn’t mean that the whole concept wouldn’t end up on TMZ or AwfulAnnouncing like how the roll of coins promo got that coverage.

Swerve being a former Lucha Underground guy explains a bit about his on-screen angles in AEW.

3 hours ago, Octopus said:

It could be spinner off into a Hangman vacation, a new feud with Cage

Brian Cage isn’t the most valuable heel named Cage to feud with in this company. Brian Cage’s AEW function is basically “big dude who smaller babyfaces can occasionally get impressive looking wins over”.

As cliche as it all sounds, you’d almost have to pivot to the “unrelated heel butts into Page’s business to get his attention” and then you have Hangman Page working matches against Sammy Guevara if Sammy can get cleared anytime soon. Or maybe you actually do something with Takeshita since it looks like the Callis/Kenny thing is cooling down unless they put the Bucks with Callis just to consolidate some storylines.

[Octopus]

Just now, Cobra Commander said:

Brian Cage isn’t the most valuable heel named Cage to feud with in this company. 

 

Lol, Hangman takes on the Patriarchy would be oddly fitting and kinda funny.
 

It’d have to be after the Cope vs Christian match though

[Cobra Commander]

Maybe they haven’t changed anything since the initial arrival but it kinda feels like TWFKA Edge has been sorta deemphasized compared to his first few weeks around AEW. So I don’t know what sort of timeline they’re working with for Christian/Edge.

So in theory, they could be looking for a new babyface for the feud if it’s still going on after Sting’s retirement

[Curt McGirt]

Ack, I just remembered how irritating Nigel was down the stretch. Not that saying "Chris-tee-ann" a thousand times was a good start...

[NoFistsJustFlips]

6 hours ago, A.M.B. said:

Completely ignoring that medical clearance means nothing apparently, why would any heel ever compete in an actual match for a belt when all you have to do is jump the champ beforehand and the title is just awarded to you for having done so.

I've seen so many people complaining about the booking here and people don't understand the nuance. Gong over most people's heads. So let's break it down.

MJF got hurt in / immediately following a match. He didn't get jumped in the back. It wasn't some "out of bounds" in terms of kayfabe thing. There's no impetus to be allowed to run someone over with a car at an airport and become champion because of it. MJF doesn't have to work twice. He can forfeit the ROH tag belts to focus on the AEW world title but he does it because the titles mean a lot to their friendship. A sacrifice for their friendship. So the potential consequences of that are on him. Not AEW, in the kayfabe sense. Cole didn't work the match because he's hurt. Not that he wasn't allowed to work it by AEW. That he's hurt and chose not to. AEW let MJF use a replacement.

MJF gets hurt and can't wrestle. Not that he wasn't allowed to work by AEW. He couldn't because it was so bad he had to go to the hospital. AEW let MJF use a replacement (same thing they allowed for the tag title match). Adam Cole is hurt and didn't want to do it, but because the world title means so much to MJF and he made him that promise, he decided to try and work the match. A sacrifice for their friendship.

There's no logic inconsistencies with the story. People are projecting things into the story. AEW never said Adam Cole isn't allowed to work one match but is allowed to work the other match. From AEW's perspective he's allowed to wrestle, he just is hurt and letting MJF do it without him. MJF doesn't have to work twice. They both made the choices they did because the friendship means so much to them.

[Jamal]

46 minutes ago, Fighting a man with a perm said:

Both women's title switches earned big reactions and that's due to the focus on character in the division of late. There's talent there if they're given time and space for creativity. Credit to both Stat and Shida for holding the division on their backs the last few months.  

   

As much as I enjoyed both Stat and Shida as champs, I can't argue with either decision. Toni has been killing it lately and Julia has improved a lot these last few months. Plus having the TBS Title involved adds something more to her issues with Skye Blue. 

[NoFistsJustFlips]

A few other thoughts.

Hangman and swerve fucking knocked it out of the park. I loved that match so so much. The violence. The storytelling. The spectacle. I have been super high on Swerve for awhile now. I hope he gets a noticeable move up the ladder here. I don;t know the hierarchy of the titles outside of the World Title. I don't feel like he's factored into the World Title plans currently but man they should pivot and get him a run.

They Black Scorpion-ed themselves. When the devil first appeared I'm certain it was planned to be Cole. But Cole got hurt and the story has changed. And they definitely don't know the ending to the story as of now. I never expected a Devil reveal here. But a little surprised there wasn't any story interaction at all with it.

Ospreay was obviously the only person the signing could be, like I said earlier in the week. The very specific wording TK used "someone AEW fans are very familiar with" clearly meant someone who had already wrestled for them. So people making all the guesses where just not paying enough attention. With that tho, I'm surprised he got such a pop coming out. Was such a forgone conclusion I'm genuinely surprised the audience was good with it.

There's too many belts. What shall we do about it? Add another belt! What the fuck is a Continental Champion. Is it higher or lower than All-Atlantic. Is it higher or lower than International. Why is it getting grouped with AEW's developmental world title & New Japan's developmental world title. Is it officially recognized by NJ Strong or NJPW? Does calling a grouping of developmental world titles and a presumably mid-card AEW the triple crown make any sense at all? Just give the not-G1 winner a World Title Shot or something. This is confusing and weird and there's ALREADY TOO MANY BELTS. Gah.

Fun show.

[Godfrey]

2 hours ago, odessasteps said:

How much of the company’s is there that is not “perpetually online fan”? Isn’t there almost everyone in 2023? 
 

if you generously say the promotion has a million fans in the US, how many of them would be “casual?” 

There’s a difference between being online and being perpetually online. Someone might see Jay White’s name in passing but have seen none of his New Japan run

If you give them a million fans you could argue 200 to 300k are casual since that’s the amount that generally tunes out on the average Dynamite (in the limited view of the ratings we get). It might not be the same people every time though so perhaps the number is higher, closer to 500k. It could also be lower if folks who change the channel are still recording the show. You could also argue the difference between the average Dynamite rating and this PPV’s buy rate is the amount of casual fans since the conversion rate would be highest with the hardcores, especially now, although piracy throws that off significantly. It’s an interesting thought game though

[Cobra Commander]

How many titles would a Belt Collector gimmick wrestler need to produce photos as neat as a wrestler holding the J-Crown belts? plus if there's enough overlap, then when he defends one of the titles, it'll be picked at 'random'

As for hospitals and MJF and the such... in theory, if this was all real, shouldn't a promotion just have the person in this match stay where they are and then the medical attention comes to them? as opposed to sending him off-site. But at least with the Forum being next to So-Fi Stadium, there'd be a real world infrastructure if you needed actual medical attention.

As for distinctions between online wrestling fans... would it be fair to say there is a distinction between the online fans who watch Japanese wrestling and the ones who don't? With now NJ's network aggressively polices copyright, I could see some companies not being very accessible to American fans even if they try at it

[John from Cincinnati]

6 hours ago, Sublime said:

Would it make sense for Hangman to be the Devil? That would explain why the devil didn’t show up last night. It could work as the two of them we built from the stat of the company to be a hero (Page) and villain (MJF) and now with MJF being a hero maybe Hangman changes alignment for this era of AEW. The henchmen devils could be the Dark Order.

Not sure the “Hangman is the main character of AEW!” people would go for it. But those people are wrong and shouldn’t deter them from making choices. 

[Cobra Commander]

Quote

 

SCENE: MJF is being hauled off to the hospital

CUT TO- Wardlow, in wherever he's held when he's not doing vignettes, watching this on TV

WARDLOW: I've seen this show before. Is he going to his hotel room?

 

I guess there's one obvious reason why Wardlow can't be a full-on conspiracy guy about MJF even if he hates MJF a lot on-screen.

But there should be at least one heel for the void to say that some good guy who just got their ankle attacked on-camera is actually running and hiding like a coward (only for that babyface to make their comeback later)

[J.H.]

Julia Hart huh?

Truly the Eydie Gorme of women's wrestling

James

[Cobra Commander]

Women's wrestling in America has marched forward to a point where you need an interesting look/gimmick to do stuff. Which I believe is equality since there have been men getting pushes for years mainly due to interesting looks/gimmicks.

[zendragon]

3 hours ago, Fighting a man with a perm said:

 

Prince Nana getting his own "I didn't do it dancers". Hanger bringing the hate early here! Rare American sports reference from this Mick - hangman seeing all the Lakers colours and thinking he's in the Staples Centre! (Does that work?!). Incredible blood here tonight! Incredible, hate-filled, visceral match! Why then add Brian Cage and Nana nonsense?? Both men deserved better than that level of distraction.   

 

Its been Crypto.com for a bit now but I'll give it to ya

[zendragon]

5 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

 

EDIT: Also, I just did a skip-through on the Hell of War. AR Fox bled like a stuck pig from his back, and the last spot (long fall through a glass plate) was pretty gnarly. I don't think it looked half as crazy as the Texas death match though. 

 

I'm gonna have to find a way to watch The Last Man Standing match from last night to see how glass shards in the back compare to a staple gun to the face

[MrKothoga]

I just wanna see Hangman go back to Silver and Reynolds. He was about to kill and man and still lost to someone who broke into his home and threatened his child. Hangman needs to find himself and AEW hasn't been the same since they parted ways.

Hangman-Swerve was great, but I really don't like Swerve winning this way. In general, I'd rather see the babyface win this kind of match, but if you let Swerve win, then let him without inteference by Cage. You shouldn't win a Texas Death Match by inteference. People intefering in Texas Death matches should be fired.

Edited November 20, 2023 by MrKothoga

[A.M.B.]

3 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

I've seen so many people complaining about the booking here and people don't understand the nuance. Gong over most people's heads. So let's break it down.

MJF got hurt in / immediately following a match. He didn't get jumped in the back. It wasn't some "out of bounds" in terms of kayfabe thing. There's no impetus to be allowed to run someone over with a car at an airport and become champion because of it. MJF doesn't have to work twice. He can forfeit the ROH tag belts to focus on the AEW world title but he does it because the titles mean a lot to their friendship. A sacrifice for their friendship. So the potential consequences of that are on him. Not AEW, in the kayfabe sense. Cole didn't work the match because he's hurt. Not that he wasn't allowed to work it by AEW. That he's hurt and chose not to. AEW let MJF use a replacement.

MJF gets hurt and can't wrestle. Not that he wasn't allowed to work by AEW. He couldn't because it was so bad he had to go to the hospital. AEW let MJF use a replacement (same thing they allowed for the tag title match). Adam Cole is hurt and didn't want to do it, but because the world title means so much to MJF and he made him that promise, he decided to try and work the match. A sacrifice for their friendship.

There's no logic inconsistencies with the story. People are projecting things into the story. AEW never said Adam Cole isn't allowed to work one match but is allowed to work the other match. From AEW's perspective he's allowed to wrestle, he just is hurt and letting MJF do it without him. MJF doesn't have to work twice. They both made the choices they did because the friendship means so much to them.

Again, I said ignoring the medical clearance, because while it’s silly, it happens in wrestling, it’s a common trope, I get it and am willing to look past it. What I’m talking about is the fact that Tony Khan would watch Jay White’s buddies break the rules to injure his champion (I guess you’re saying a post match beatdown is fair play?) and then act like there’s no other option but to award Jay the title since his champion can’t compete. Also ignoring the fact that they didn’t vacate when Punk was injured and they didn’t even wait for a diagnosis for MJF. I have to accept that the main event is completely thrown out because apparently no one in the back is willing to fight Jay for a vacant title on a whim, or Tony just didn’t think of that as an alternative and was okay losing the main event for his big show even though he has all the power to fix things. This all might work if there was a cut throat heel booker who had no sympathy, but TK is constantly watching his booking plans get ruined by heels and is apparently fine with doing nothing about it.

[Cobra Commander]

I think the #1 thing about authority figures in wrestling is that unless it's a  heel general manager, they're pretty much powerless. Referees, Doctors, The dude who has to hit the music for run-ins.

And since AEW, thankfully, doesn't do a general manager, wrestlers occasionally make their own matches with the rest coming from the Twitter account.

So if we're doing wrestling logic, obviously one guy who could be out due to a busted ankle can be replaced by a different guy who would otherwise be out due to a busted ankle.

This promotion had Julia Hart working in an eyepatch for like 6 months. Danielson would be working every week with his eyepatch if it wasn't a legit injury that he needed to heal.

Kudos to them on not doing the January 1999 Georgia Dome sequence of events last night, at least.

[John E. Dynamite]

5 hours ago, odessasteps said:

How much of the company’s is there that is not “perpetually online fan”? Isn’t there almost everyone in 2023? 
 

if you generously say the promotion has a million fans in the US, how many of them would be “casual?” 

The reports from the arena that the crowd was by-and-large with the main event. The regular jagoffs on non-wrestling message boards and the side chat (when you don't feel like paying). The strangers I chat with about wrestlinf behind the counter at work or at a bar. The people on my social media + inbox who watch, but not religiously.

When I say "perpetually online" I mean "not following every possible bit of online wrestling discourse". People who don't read dirtsheets/news sites, who don't check SquaredCircle and cagematch, who aren't part of a wrestling Dischord, who don't post somewhere like here. The majority of the audience, who never saw a Jay White match before he debuted.

[Jenalysis]

doublepost delete

Edited November 19, 2023 by Jenalysis

[Jenalysis]

16 hours ago, Octopus said:

You never know how these things go in AEW. He could end up in the tag title picture like Starks or random midcard feuds for all we know. The people chasing MJF is pretty packed with Samoa Joe, Wardlow, and the secret Devil. 

I’m very much in the minority in that I feel the Jay White stealing the belt (although I wasn’t a fan of the angle as a whole) helped Jay White. I liked what I saw from him specifically. But I know most (that I’ve read on Reddit) didn’t like his promo style which I oddly adored. He’s more if a sneaky snake (like Christian) than an epic killer (Samoa Joe, Will Ospreay, and now SWERVE). Shenanigans can keep him relevant but it’ll just depend on booking and if that’s what people want to see. 

 

I'm super biased, I'm probably the biggest Jay White fan on here.  Been all in on him since his NJPW match with Hangman where they both figured it out at the same time, followed by the Cow Palace match with Juice.  The one piece of wrestling merch I feel ok displaying in my place is from Jay.   (It's also the one piece I have in my actual name)

So I'm not just pissed, I feel the same way I felt during the Roman wins LOL Rumble.  I know some of this is personal, but this was so fucking stupid and it hurt my favorite wrestler.   If TK reads this, I want him to know that I want to kick him in the nuts for this match, though I will forgive him eventually if things turn around.   This is legit the angriest I've felt as a wrestling fan ever, which I know is irrational as hell, but it hurt watching this, especially since there was like 8 to 10 different ways to have a  more logical ending to this- the easiest being Joe saves MJF to save his title shot.

I understand if I get a vacation due to this, I probably deserve it, but it's how I feel.  I've been around this board and previous iterations 25 years or so, and this is the first time I've posted something like this.

I wonder if it's ok to feel this way?

 

[Cobra Commander]

I've probably typed this a few times but I forget when I last typed it but having the most bored looking motionless fans on the hard cam all night probably has a way of making people think that the fans in the arena not on camera are represented by the people on the hard cam.

(edit: and to clarify, that sort of fan approach is more the fault of the promotion so i'm not blasting hard cam fans although some of them can be convicted of being attention-starved)

Just something that comes to mind when the topic of how fans in the arena feel and how i've read about how dead crowds can come off.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Cobra Commander