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Dynamite - 11/17/2021


Gordlow
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14 minutes ago, Stefanie the Human said:

Prior to my transition, I did eight years of play-by-play and color for a couple of indies in the Mid-Atlantic. Post-transition, I managed the announcer selection process for an international women's sports organization, including their ESPN broadcasts, for five years, in addition to another six years of play-by-play and color of announcing that sport.

From now on I'm just going to assume everyone on the board has commentary experience because I was way off lol. Currently you have the most extensive on air broadcast resume that I know of. So you are now on the hook every time I have a broadcasting question lol.

 

17 minutes ago, Stefanie the Human said:

Right now, he's a detriment to the call and is coasting based on his reputation. If he were not Jim Ross, he would have been dropped for half of the mistakes he's made.

If I'm being honest there's really no way to disagree with this. No one else would get away with a lot of the things he gets away with. But I just have to keep harping on the respect factor and the blow back. You're totally right. But even being right, it would upset a lot of people in the company to take Ross out of that spot against his wishes. So I suspect TK is going to allow him to stay in the saddle until he doesn't wanna ride anymore. I bet there's also a bit of hero worship wrapped up in this. How many of us would have benched the legends of our youth if we were thrust into being there boss later on in their career? Ain't no way I'm benching Bobby Henan if I'm running 2000 WCW ya know.

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25 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

How many of us would have benched the legends of our youth if we were thrust into being there boss later on in their career? Ain't no way I'm benching Bobby Henan if I'm running 2000 WCW ya know.

Oh good, I get to talk about announcer development philosophy! I never get to do this here. 😄

*ahem*

If you're not actively building and recruiting your next generation of talent underneath your current generation of talent, you're in deep trouble. You need to be operating under a "next person up" philosophy if you want to have any hope of not cratering your show if any link in your chain breaks.

Because really, I'm not into the idea of hero worship. Are there announcers I've loved in the other sport I've worked that I wish I didn't have to bench? Absolutely. Did I bench them anyway because they weren't the right fit for what I needed? You better believe it.

Heck, for the last tournament I ran, I BENCHED MYSELF. Seriously. Everyone else was great and I wasn't needed on-mic, so I gave my slots up and was simply a staff manager. So even I wasn't exempt.

You ideally would want to keep people constantly striving to improve themselves each step of the way. If someone regresses, you slide them up and down your scale accordingly. But this whole "I'm the lead announcer or I'm going home"? Okay cool, you need to do the work and beat everyone else for the job. Someone having a lead role in perpetuity because they were a big name in the past is an absolute demotivating factor to anyone else that may come up.

And if that's too abstract a concept to grasp since AEW only has a handful of announcers, well, they've kind of put themselves in this corner where they've got a ton of announcer seats and aren't really developing anyone, because Excalibur's all over their shows with a rotating cast of talent as his sidekicks. A show like Dark or Dark Elevation would be a perfect spot for them to say "hey, great, let's hire someone like Veda Scott or Sam Leterna or [insert indie announcers that I'm not aware of] and let them host Dark permanently".

And if that's STILL too abstract a concept, just imagine if they trot out Ric Flair to main event right now, and someone goes "well, we can't cut Ric Flair, he's Ric Flair".

Edited by Stefanie the Human
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From a bit before All Out up until a couple weeks ago, I thought JR had really gotten in a decent groove for the first time in years. Punk and Danielson seemed to have reenergized him, he was being grumpy and undercutting guys less.

It seems like that just kinda wore off in the last two or three weeks and he's back to where he's mostly been the last decade or so.

And yeah watching today The Good, The Bad, and The Elite videos really did remind me how damn good he can be in other roles still.

Also, just for the record, please dear God don't let a company I watch bring back Joey Styles. Holy Christ has his schtick aged terribly.

I think they do need a more structured "Excalibur is PBP, one or two other people are color" for the main team. I'd personally go with either Ex and Taz or Ex, Taz, and Tony personally.

Also, as long as I'm talking about announcers and such... Why does anyone ever put Marvez on TV? He's actively awful whenever they put him out there doing a backstage interview (thankfully not very often anymore) while Tony and Dasha are both really good at it.

And controversial opinion alert; Brandi Rhodes is the best ring announcer in the company.

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2 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Goreman is the only one I knew of for sure to name drop. (Because whether he knows it or not he's called a few of my matches lol).

But I still just don't see how you take him out back old yeller style without any blow back. 
 

It strikes me as extremely cool that Gorman has called matches that NoFists has participated in. For whatever reason, that makes me really happy.

As for what's to be done about JR in AEW, I honestly feel like he'd contribute so much more in a reduced role... but I have no idea how the people around him in AEW feel about that, and it seems at odds with what the man himself wants. And, thinking about it, if he were to just disappear from AEW TV completely I am quite sure a lot of us would miss him. I'm sure glad it's not my decision to make!

1 hour ago, Stefanie the Human said:

I did eight years of play-by-play and color for a couple of indies in the Mid-Atlantic.

That is really cool! I either didn't know that or I forgot it. ESPN experience, as well, is an impressive thing to have on your resume. 

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you can see why this place is (probably) the best place on the internet to discuss pro wrestling. There really are a lot of interesting people, with interesting and varied points of view, participating here. 

Edited by Gordberg
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I have nothing to add, but I wanted to kick in that I did post-production color commentary for like 3 years worth of ultra-tiny shitbox NorCal indies for shows that never got video releases.

I would have loved to have done it live to tape, but I was in-ring refereeing most of the time as well. 

Fucking everybody here has commentary experience! What a group we are!

 

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8 hours ago, Matt D said:

Like I said, it’s been litigated, but I’m new to the product, and I didn’t speak lightly when I said I thought it was the single biggest issue I’ve observed with AEW over the last few months. I really feel that way. I can understand people not wanting to talk about an issue where the ground has been covered and am happy to move on if everyone else is.

I’m also new to the week to week and I’ve enjoyed this conversation!

 

JR is not discerning. He rises to the moment at times. Sometimes he even gets things right, but now that I have started watching week to week it’s hard to ignore.

He used that “these guys need to keep their eyes on the prize / too much showboating” thing in a 2.0 match and it made the most sense and was value added and fit the moment. Then I realized he was going to say some variation of that every week even when it didn’t fit the moment.

It’s just a bad judgement thing. He doesn’t see the difference between shitting on Rick Knox in a goofy Bucks match and snarking about Aubrey’s 10 count during A BRYAN DANIELSON MATCH!

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I did ring announcing for 3 years, including for Samoa Joe's first ever match, John Cena's smallest crowd,  and for the company that inspired PWG. I also did entrance lighting for UPW for a year when it was a WWE developmental company. 

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I still like how the seeds of an UE are being planted.  This week with Omega not having faith/trust in Cole to lead.  Then Cole calling on his good friend Bobby Fish to help Friday night.  What happens bwhen Fish eats the pin?  Or does someone show up to help their former UE partners? 

 

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6 minutes ago, romdam said:

I still like how the seeds of an UE are being planted.  This week with Omega not having faith/trust in Cole to lead.  Then Cole calling on his good friend Bobby Fish to help Friday night.  What happens bwhen Fish eats the pin?  Or does someone show up to help their former UE partners? 

 

I don't think KOR is free until January.

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To me the commentary problem is not solely JR's fault.

I think Excalibur is part of the problem as well, like when he starts getting confused when JR or Tony insult him or throw him a curveball he doesn't get and then there are these awkward pauses or flubbering around. While I do enjoy Tony's enthusiasm, his problem is that he's also trying to do play-by-play when JR and Excalibur are also trying to do play-by-play. 

The way it sounds to me is that JR is frustrated he's not the lead guy directing the action. That's how it comes off on TV. He feels he's being upstaged by Excalibur.

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I don't think Excalibur gets confused, but I feel he sometimes doesn't know how much he can get away with banter wise with JR specially. Like he's worried how JR would react or even offend him if he goes a bit far with the banter. Because he clearly is quick witted and doesn't mind shooting the shit with Taz/Jericho/Etc.

 

 

Edited by eikerir
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Sidebar on Shida-Deeb - I think they've definitely given this enough juice that they could run the blow-off or next encounter as a Dynamite main event. What stipulation would be worth them adding to it though? I'd like to see them mix it up from a standard garbage brawl, maybe a 30 minute Ironman match or 2/3 falls or something.  

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17 minutes ago, killsteve said:

Sidebar on Shida-Deeb - I think they've definitely given this enough juice that they could run the blow-off or next encounter as a Dynamite main event. What stipulation would be worth them adding to it though? I'd like to see them mix it up from a standard garbage brawl, maybe a 30 minute Ironman match or 2/3 falls or something.  

Submission or I Quit maybe?

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I think the thing to remember when it comes to issues with JR is that ultimately, it’s not really hurting (at least) the overall enjoyment of AEW.  
 

I’ll admit though that I have a golden editor installed into my brain to only hear what I want to.  I manage to almost never see Peter Avalon matches because his moustache hurts my eyes.  I gather I do much of the same with JR because to me he is largely muted.  I barely notice him there.  I prefer to focus on Tony and Ex because one, I haven’t heard much of in recent years.  The other, I’ve hardly ever heard before so what he offers is fresh and new.

 I’m really glad I posted this instead of an anecdote about “Hey! I did commentary too.”  Then tell you all about how I called Boys Varsity Basketball in high school as if it were Monday Night RAW.  So what I lacked in product knowledge.  I made up for in unbridled enthusiasm and a word set of Vinceisms.

To this day I’ve no clue what a Full Court Press is.  But I’m pretty sure Billy Kidman does one.
 

 

Edited by Brandon Bones
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13 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

He has a few flubs but his commentary voice and cadence is the best they have. 

I know it's cool to call knowledge of MOVEZ nerdy but, as has been mentioned, watch any Botchamania and you'll hear Schiavone egregiously calling moves by their wrong names.  Imagine watching pro football and hearing the PBP guy call an I formation a shotgun formation, for example.  That's unacceptable and there's no way anybody should be clamoring for Schiavone to be lead PBP if he can't correctly call the action.

The idea that Ross is going to be allowed to get older and get worse and worse on commentary because, for him, it's that or nothing is ridiculous. 

Edited by Technico Support
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This is fucked up to say, but J.R. probably isn't gonna be on the road much longer. I get that he wants to work around his illness, but eventually, someone involved is going to realize that flying a 70+ year old immunocompromised cancer patient around during a (still very ongoing) pandemic is no bueno. Whether it's his doctors, himself, TK, some insurance company, his kids, who knows. But 18 rounds of chemo, I would imagine that knocking even a much younger person on their ass.

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5 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

This is fucked up to say, but J.R. probably isn't gonna be on the road much longer. I get that he wants to work around his illness, but eventually, someone involved is going to realize that flying a 70+ year old immunocompromised cancer patient around during a (still very ongoing) pandemic is no bueno. Whether it's his doctors, himself, TK, some insurance company, his kids, who knows. But 18 rounds of chemo, I would imagine that knocking even a much younger person on their ass.

Going to be TK or his doctors. JR is old school - don't get paid if you don't wrestle mentality. And well this and OU football is his life now. 

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8 hours ago, Gordberg said:

That is really cool! I either didn't know that or I forgot it. ESPN experience, as well, is an impressive thing to have on your resume. 

I don't bring it up because... meh. I dunno. Feels like bragging. I only like to bring it up when relevant to point out that I'm coming from a position of knowledge (somewhat).

37 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

I know it's cool to call knowledge of MOVEZ nerdy but, as has been mentioned, watch any Botchamania and you'll hear Schiavone gregariously calling moves by their wrong names.  Imagine watching pro football and hearing the PBP guy call an I formation a shotgun formation, for example.  That's unacceptable and there's no way anybody should be clamoring for Schiavone to be lead PBP if he can't correctly call the action.

The idea that Ross is going to be allowed to get older and get worse and worse on commentary because, for him, it's that or nothing is ridiculous. 

I'm very much into the idea of Excalibur PBP/Schiavone color for the idea of Excalibur knowing the moves and what makes them tick, and Schiavone's joyful enthusiasm about them. Color can be a lot of things, and sheer enthusiasm can definitely be one of them. Ideally you want your color to blend well with your PBP, so if your PBP is incredibly technically proficient, then your color can afford to be a little more anecdotal and enthusiastic. If Excalibur is explaining the hows and the whys of the moves in addition to calling them, and Schiavone's over there going "wow that's amazing" and gushing about how much he enjoys wrestling (as he is wont to do)... that feels like it's a good team to me.

Then when you have an Excalibur/Taz team, you have Excalibur lay back on the move explanations and let Taz get into the technical specifics so Taz can get into the nitty gritty on that aspect, because he has the ability to deliver that knowledge in a timely fashion.

I've always been a big believer that commentary should talk to the audience, not at the audience. You have to show your audience that respect, because if you don't, why would they keep believing in anything you're saying?

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1 hour ago, AxB said:

I don't think Gorman watches AEW and nobody has atted him, so we're never going to get his thoughts on this.

No, here I am! I'm just reading all this now. Usually I try not to be critical of the announcers on TV because I don't want people to think I'm jealous that I'm not in that spot. I have a weird TV situation where I don't get to watch Dynamite and Rampage, but I've watched every episode of Dark and Elevation (well, I'm caught up to September). So the one time I've heard the JR-Tony-Ex trio was the one PPV I saw, which was Revolution 2020. 

This discussion reminds me of Ring of Honor before I joined in 2002. The consensus was, "Wow, this wrestling is great, but the commentary could be a lot better." Coach Tony has heard the criticism of JR, but he is clearly sticking with him. With that said, the best thing is to make sure the trio has clearly defined roles.

My team with Joe Dombrowski and Kingdom James in IWC worked because we had clear roles. I was the play-by-play guy, Joe was the "Mike Tenay" giving background on the wrestlers, and Kingdom was the intelligent heel. If JR has to be the lead play-by-play guy, Tony should stick to color, and Ex should be Mike Tenay. There's nothing more annoying than being the play-by-play guy and someone else starts calling the moves. it's confusing for the viewers, too.

I think Excalibur and Taz make a great duo on Dark. Tony is super smooth as the lead voice of Elevation. Sometimes he doesn't know the name of a move, but then he will hear it in his headset and say it. 

If there's one piece of advice I would give AEW, it's don't be afraid to coach up your announcers, even JR. Let him know how much or how little he should criticize the referees, for example. Big Show needs some coaching. He needs to stop talking about himself all the time. He needs to stop saying the same things about the same wrestlers over and over:

  • I just love saying her name: Thunder RRRRRROSA!!!
  • I want to see Mike Sydal and DDP have a Yoga-Off
  • Angelico's just out here grooving, he's just trying to catch the wind

I think there's a reluctance to ask these "legends" to keep improving, when it would really help the shows a lot.

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1 hour ago, Matt D said:

Can we double back and note how much fun Garcia vs Kingston is going to be? 

This match is another example of their deep bench.  Before it was announced, I had no idea I wanted to see it so bad.

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