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AEW Navel-Gazing Thread Number Two


Gordlow
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On 9/3/2022 at 2:54 PM, John from Cincinnati said:

I think this belongs in this thread? Please refrain from pelting me with vegetables that are starting to look a little funky.

https://wrestlepurists.com/tony-khan-people-not-liking-each-other-not-getting-along-can-actually-be-positive/

He's the data guy. So if he's saying friendship doesn't sell, he probably has something to back that up. Release the minute-by-minute ratings for friendship, Tony! 

Jesus I'm just seeing this now

Ok, if any of the scuffles kerfuffles are real incidents and not a work, fire everyone involved in throwing hands/chairs

If he's coming out talking about he's cool with that shit, fuck him and fuck any "stars" unprofessional enough to throw hands backstage off camera instead of working it out on TV for the payday

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6 minutes ago, Hayabusa said:

Jesus I'm just seeing this now

Ok, if any of the scuffles kerfuffles are real incidents and not a work, fire everyone involved in throwing hands/chairs

If he's coming out talking about he's cool with that shit, fuck him and fuck any "stars" unprofessional enough to throw hands backstage off camera instead of working it out on TV for the payday

I'm gonna take this to another thread because there's enough other places for this. 

I'm sure Gordlow won't mind at all, lol. 

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Cheers. I feel like I would generally  prefer not to be part of this particular (current ongoing) conversation. I don't think it can be avoided this week, though. So, I'll vent now, then back off:  Work or shoot, this is the last thing I want out of AEW. Those episodes of BTE from before the Bucks turned heel, and particularly Wrestlers on the Road Getting Room service really had me believing that AEW was a happy friendly workers paradise. But this current bullshit is certainly generating lots of clicks and conversation, so I feel it's likely they are going to lean into it hard.  That was a pretty great pro wrestling show. As long as they keep giving us matches like Kingston vs Ishii and Acclaimed vs SioG I'm very likely to keep watching and chatting about AEW.  The PPV thread is 40 pages and growing, 90+% hot goss talk. I got three years of the promotion I wanted. It was great while it lasted. An awful lot of people seem really happy and excited to be able to participate in Monday Night Wars style insider backstage gossip speculation now. I don't wanna harsh anyone's buzz, in this case. Done venting now. I'll happily rejoin the convo if and when the subject returns to the pro wrestling matches. In the meantime, I'm happy to lurk. There might be plenty of fodder for this thread a wee bit down the road (if and) when the smoke clears.

Edited by Gordlow
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15 minutes ago, Gordlow said:

Cheers. I feel like would generally  prefer not to be part of this particular (current ongoing) conversation. I don't think it can be avoided this week, though. So, I'll vent now, then back off:  Work or shoot, this is the last thing I want out of AEW. Those episodes of BTE from before the Bucks turned heel, and particularly Wrestlers on the Road Getting Room service really had me believing that AEW was a happy friendly workers paradise. But this current bullshit is certainly generating lots of clicks and conversation, so I feel it's likely they are going to lean into it hard.  That was a pretty great pro wrestling show. As long as they keep giving us matches like Kingston vs Ishii and Acclaimed vs SioG I'm very likely to keep watching and chatting about AEW.  The PPV thread is 40 pages and growing, 90+% hot goss talk. I got three years of the promotion I wanted. It was great while it lasted. An awful lot of people seem really happy and excited to be able to participate in Monday Night Wars style insider backstage gossip speculation now. I don't wanna harsh anyone's buzz, in this case. Done venting now. I'll happily rejoin the convo if and when the subject returns to the pro wrestling matches. In the meantime, I'm happy to lurk. There might be plenty of fodder for this thread a wee bit down the road (if and) when the smoke clears.

Gord, you are always welcome in the Dark thread, that's still going to be your source of quality.

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@Gordlow

 Gordfather my liege,

I'm hoping if abyone reads my post and understands I was just reacting to the article, I hope it would be you

Wasn't trying to drag that mess into this thread, I mean I've long been a fan of your posts along others like Elsavage, Eivion, FlipsandFists, etc aka the good Bubbas (if i can steal from KawadaSmiles) who get in depth with their thoughts and opinions and bring up interesting pov's. Believer it or not I also count Newbury among that group in recent months, there's lots of great discussions in this thread and many others and it's all you good bubbas making it such a great place to relax and unwind after a day at work and peruse things of MattD and Dean and you too naturally 

Tldr didn't want to drag the convo over here, Newburys link was here and I reacted to it here but I wasn't planning or hoping to revisit the talk here, and seeing the ppv thread closed I'm absolutely not gonna linger on the gossip in this holiest and most sacred of threads*

In closijg I hope to see you post reviews of live events or even past events, your stories and pictures are awesome as hell bubba. I've got a best friend living in Fukuoka who married a local girl and they had their 1st kid recently and trust me, I love reading about and hearing about the daily life in Japan from good bubbas like yourself and my brother Sergio so hopefully you won't only lurk but will still drop some road stories past or present ?

 

***Not being insincere at all, if you recall I rejoiced in the first navel gazing thread how awesome it was to find a thread that was just discussion without the photos eating up bandwidth every other post. These threads are what I love about the board and its the laid out thoughts of the good bubbas in detail that make it such a great time to browse

 

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On 9/3/2022 at 5:07 PM, Gordlow said:

Well. Shoot. Looks like I've been wrong about AEW all along. I am legitimately a wee bit saddened. People being friends is legit a thing I watch AEW for. A major thing.

I guess, now, it's only a matter of time before "strong men stand alone" stories start to define the main event narrative.

It will kill me a little when John Silver turns on Hangman. 

Well its a business. even if the backstage atmosphere is generally good everyone isn't going get along at all times cause thats life

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I must admit that I've been glued to the gossip all week. I want to look away, but can't. I find it all so fascinating.

That said, I'm oddly not worried about AEW. What is it that people always say about their bloated roster? Yeah, I understand Punk would be a big loss from a marketing perspective. But, from my own personal perspective as a fan, he's one guy. He's a guy I liked to see wrestle, but they have a lot of those guys. They are short on guys who bring his star presence or whatever you want to call it, but they've got guys who could get there.

My point is (if I have one) that I'm going to keep watching. If AEW suddenly becomes a mess on tv and they're doing run-in finishes to every match and Big Cass is chokeslamming the whole tag division and the whole vibe of the show changes, I might tune out. I don't think that's going to happen. I think this is definitely a "make or break" situation for TK, but I hope he handles it as well as he can.

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On 9/7/2022 at 4:07 PM, Log said:

I must admit that I've been glued to the gossip all week. I want to look away, but can't. I find it all so fascinating.

That said, I'm oddly not worried about AEW. What is it that people always say about their bloated roster? Yeah, I understand Punk would be a big loss from a marketing perspective. But, from my own personal perspective as a fan, he's one guy. He's a guy I liked to see wrestle, but they have a lot of those guys. They are short on guys who bring his star presence or whatever you want to call it, but they've got guys who could get there.

My point is (if I have one) that I'm going to keep watching. If AEW suddenly becomes a mess on tv and they're doing run-in finishes to every match and Big Cass is chokeslamming the whole tag division and the whole vibe of the show changes, I might tune out. I don't think that's going to happen. I think this is definitely a "make or break" situation for TK, but I hope he handles it as well as he can.

I'm the same, and probably have let if affect my mood too much (thankfully taken a couple of days off work this week). I've emotionally and financially invested a lot in AEW and truly loved modern wrestling consistently again for the first since mid-late 90's WCW, and at least was a big fan of all parties involved in the fracas (and hate that my very first instincts about Punk and AEW turned out to be correct, as I was instantly back on Punk bandwagon the minute he first stepped out on the United Center stage). In a perfect world, The Elite returns at least a touch reflective and maybe an apologetic Punk can have a retirement match at All Out next year if it's back at NOW Arena (cause objectively, Punk should be listening to the message his body is trying to tell him). Realistically, I would be planning for a world where all parties are gone. While I preferred the idea of All Friends wrestling, I didn't mind TK letting things fly way too close to the sun since the in-ring action remained largely awesome and the spice could have helped liven things up (And the other channel is now trying to rip-off the everything is sunshine and rainbows feeling). However, AEW ended up getting severely burned.

That being said, there is still a ton of talent on the roster (and some big stories like MJF's return and The Acclaimed's ascent) remain intact. The crowd in Buffalo was very forgiving and still gave a great response to the show Wednesday, so the good will with the company is far from bankrupt (and my good friend that jumped onto AEW bandwagon after Punk's debut is still on board and even is ready to side with AEW over Punk). Also, the optimist in me looks at how TK has helped stabilize Fulham after some bad luck and initial poor strategy the first time they returned to Premier League, and believes that he can the do the same in a sport/subject that he is far more knowledgable about. Short-term, AEW has lost same overall value and likely cost itself money on its TV renewal. Long-term though they could still be fine and even better by getting back to basics, and I do not expect the kumbaya and outside positive feeling on the other channel to last with the competing interests in the front office and lack of boundaries they are willing to push as a sterilized, publicly traded company).

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Saw somebody on twitter post something a little over the top along the lines of "if they lose Punk, they lose their top draw. If they lose the Elite, they lose their identity." Sure, their name is in the brand name and all but li'l dramatic.

When AEW was announced, it was basically my dream scenario. My favourite active wrestler heading a big promotion with a mainstream tv deal with the best tag team of the last ten years and it's funded by a DVDVR poster. Cody still didn't have the tattoo and in many ways he was the MVP of year one. If the Elite leave, I'll have a hard time following with the same passion I originally did. I mean, it was always inevitable they'd leave eventually,  but just how soon it was possible jumped way up, especially after Cody's departure. 

The roster is so deep that they'll be fine in the long run regardless of what happens and who leaves. They have guys like Miro, Andrade, Pac, and others that have largely been peripheral to the main event scene that could finally really move up with the likes of Danielson and Moxley. Khan's attention to investing in young wrestlers will pay off for years and allows him to survive something like Cody, Punk, and The Elite leaving potentially in the span of a year. But my investment will drop massively. Just anywhere but WWE as a landing spot, man. Please. I beg. 

Edited by Jiji
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It's interesting that NFL has a term called "Next man up" and the son of an NFL owner has a very similar philosophy. Hell it feels like Dark exists as his own version of a taxi squad. They have a lot invested in Punk but if you look at ratings and such its probably not enough of a bump to justify the chaos. 

Also on of the ancillary benefits is giving American wrestling a kick in the ass. Whether its WWE realizing they can be so complacent and stale after years alone at the top, getting promotions like NWA and Impact exposure or even idies being more interesting with AEW doing shots and wrestlers they have another possible golden ring to grab if they wheren't VKM idea of a wrestler

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  • 2 weeks later...

I think Sammy Guevara is a way better heel than MJF.

Cuz people are, like, "Man! MJF is such a good heel!" but " Fuck Sammy! I hope Eddie beats the hell out of him!" and in my opinion the latter is a much better reaction.

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5 hours ago, Gordlow said:

I think Sammy Guevara is a way better heel than MJF.

Cuz people are, like, "Man! MJF is such a good heel!" but " Fuck Sammy! I hope Eddie beats the hell out of him!" and in my opinion the latter is a much better reaction.

I think this touches on the age old "cool heel" debate, which I don't really care to litigate. At the moment, I'm not overly concerned if I'm watching a match where heel Flair is getting more cheers than the babyface among some segments of the crowd so long as I get the sense that the audience is invested and I'm invested. Other people's mileage will vary, but whatever. 

Speaking specifically about MJF, I find him to be the most interesting recipient of the "such a good heel" tag in a while. Because I started out where a lot of his contemporary critics started with him: this is low-hanging fruit, he's a boring edgelord, he comes across as playing a wrestling heel, etc. When he complains about people changing their opinion of him, I'm one of the people he's complaining about. And it's a credit to him: he's so committed to the bit that he wore me down. He's doing all of those things his critics accuse him of. But he's doing it with such commitment that I can allow myself to believe he's really that guy. He's easy to believe as an edgelord bully who's playing something so people don't see who he really is, as alluded to in his feud with Punk. 

Part of what works about his act right now is that even though he's incidentally getting cheers from some sections of the audience, there's nothing "cool" about his act. It's all hacky. Calling people cucks? Hacky. I know he's a fan of Punk, but pulling out the "greatest trick the devil ever pulled" line in 2022? Hacky. Calling people ugly and fat? Hacky. He's so committed to being abrasive in the least cool way possible that it's almost admirable. There's nothing cool about him on screen, even if he's doing it well enough that some people appreciate the performance. 

Even his commitment to the bit in softball interviews reinforces the act. His favourite movie as he revealed this week: Goodfellas! It's a good movie (says so in the title), but it's also the exact thing a hacky bro like him should be saying is his favourite movie. When he's on screen in any setting, his committed lameness is seeping out of every pour. It's the best. It's very easy to buy. 

Sammy may be getting less divided reactions. But MJF's getting the reaction many stars do, which is every kind. That continues to be a worthwhile dynamic. And who knows, maybe this honeymoon period of people being happy MJF is back will pass. And then he can once again perform in front of audience that more closely conform to your preferences. 

I don't know who's a better heel. But they're both great reactions for my purposes. 

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I think the problem with Sammy is they were really wishy washy about his booking during his feud with Scorpio Sky. 

The fans were turning on him, just like Cody and Brandi, and they booked it in a really bad, half-assed, dumbass way.

But I think he and Tay are a good heel duo at this point.

Edited by TheVileOne
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On 9/23/2022 at 2:49 PM, John from Cincinnati said:

Even his commitment to the bit in softball interviews reinforces the act. His favourite movie as he revealed this week: Goodfellas! It's a good movie (says so in the title), but it's also the exact thing a hacky bro like him should be saying is his favourite movie

Now hang on a minute, playa

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On 9/23/2022 at 11:49 AM, John from Cincinnati said:

I think this touches on the age old "cool heel" debate, which I don't really care to litigate. At the moment, I'm not overly concerned if I'm watching a match where heel Flair is getting more cheers than the babyface among some segments of the crowd so long as I get the sense that the audience is invested and I'm invested. Other people's mileage will vary, but whatever. 

Speaking specifically about MJF, I find him to be the most interesting recipient of the "such a good heel" tag in a while. Because I started out where a lot of his contemporary critics started with him: this is low-hanging fruit, he's a boring edgelord, he comes across as playing a wrestling heel, etc. When he complains about people changing their opinion of him, I'm one of the people he's complaining about. And it's a credit to him: he's so committed to the bit that he wore me down. He's doing all of those things his critics accuse him of. But he's doing it with such commitment that I can allow myself to believe he's really that guy. He's easy to believe as an edgelord bully who's playing something so people don't see who he really is, as alluded to in his feud with Punk. 

Part of what works about his act right now is that even though he's incidentally getting cheers from some sections of the audience, there's nothing "cool" about his act. It's all hacky. Calling people cucks? Hacky. I know he's a fan of Punk, but pulling out the "greatest trick the devil ever pulled" line in 2022? Hacky. Calling people ugly and fat? Hacky. He's so committed to being abrasive in the least cool way possible that it's almost admirable. There's nothing cool about him on screen, even if he's doing it well enough that some people appreciate the performance. 

Even his commitment to the bit in softball interviews reinforces the act. His favourite movie as he revealed this week: Goodfellas! It's a good movie (says so in the title), but it's also the exact thing a hacky bro like him should be saying is his favourite movie. When he's on screen in any setting, his committed lameness is seeping out of every pour. It's the best. It's very easy to buy. 

Sammy may be getting less divided reactions. But MJF's getting the reaction many stars do, which is every kind. That continues to be a worthwhile dynamic. And who knows, maybe this honeymoon period of people being happy MJF is back will pass. And then he can once again perform in front of audience that more closely conform to your preferences. 

I don't know who's a better heel. But they're both great reactions for my purposes. 

MJF will be calling people soy next, I agree with what you are saying but there is a whole segment of amercia that thinks calling people "cuck" is the best thing since sliced bead #2

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That’s a real “tree falls in the forest” thing.  Is it still parody if the people being critiqued don’t get it and instead take it at face value?  People of a certain political ilk didn’t realize until just this season that The Boys was making fun of them, for example.

Edited by Technico Support
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26 minutes ago, zendragon said:

MJF will be calling people soy next, I agree with what you are saying but there is a whole segment of amercia that thinks calling people "cuck" is the best thing since sliced bead #2

I know. As much as I'd prefer to pay them no mind and just enjoy the performance and commitment, I know they're right there. 

There's a thought that I was trying to find my way to in that post, but eventually dropped, about how there are underlying factors that contribute to MJF's cheers and Sammy/Tay's heat that reflect very poorly on some segments of wrestling fans. I don't know what to do about that, but in a big enough room you're probably only a row or two away from some obsessive creep or edgelord or everybody's crazy Uncle Frank. 

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On 9/27/2022 at 3:38 PM, Technico Support said:

That’s a real “tree falls in the forest” thing.  Is it still parody if the people being critiqued don’t get it and instead take it at face value?  People of a certain political ilk didn’t realize until just this season that The Boys was making fun of them, for example.

i'm dumbfounded every time i hear somebody say that Rage Against the Machine was great until they went political.

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4 hours ago, twiztor said:

i'm dumbfounded every time i hear somebody say that Rage Against the Machine was great until they went political.

All they hear is “Fuck you I won’t do what you tell me”.

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18 hours ago, twiztor said:

i'm dumbfounded every time i hear somebody say that Rage Against the Machine was great until they went political.

So they were great before they started?!? Yeah, there's been a few bands like that, I guess?

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On 9/27/2022 at 4:38 PM, Technico Support said:

That’s a real “tree falls in the forest” thing.  Is it still parody if the people being critiqued don’t get it and instead take it at face value?  People of a certain political ilk didn’t realize until just this season that The Boys was making fun of them, for example.

I keep wondering about this myself. I definitely know a guy from my high school days who unironically thinks Blackpool Cuckold Club is "amazing". It will be interesting to see how much of that fanbase is out there and how hard they push to make MJF a legit alt-right babyface. I kind of think the success of, say, the Acclaimed suggests that the audience is generally a little more progressive than that, but by contrast we've seen Cody and Brandi and then Sammy and Tay all turned hardway heel largely due to a very bitter and pathetic incel mentality running through the sections of the fanbase, which becomes hard to shout down when it takes over a live crowd. I was thinking about this specifically on Wednesday when the crowd shut up while Menard and Parker talked but wouldn't let Anna Jay (whose heel character is a hoot!) get a word in. It also doesn't help that you have more middle of the road guys like Meltzer talking about how he's conflicted about AEW confiscating transphobic signs. It's one of the reasons I think they really need to get behind the women's division right now and start putting 2 or 3 women's matches on Dynamite a week, even if it's in part just a litmus test to see what the scumbags in the audience will tolerate and how pervasive their presence is ATM. 

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