AEW Navel-Gazing Thread Number Two

[John from Cincinnati]

This is a thread for navel gazing, so please excuse me while I hit you with what’s likely to be some very rambly bullshit. I’m prone to being in a funk around the end of year holidays, sorry. 
 

Reread your@Gordi the former AEW fan post a couple times since last night thinking about how I wanted to engage with it. I enjoy engaging with your stuff even though I know I can be a contrarian little shit. Thought about quibbling about our definitions of “disingenuous.” Is Nigel disingenuous? We know it to be true he wants to be that guy again and fight Danielson. Is it disingenuous for OC to be a full on lazy, unthinking wrestler when we know that not to be true? None of this is really important, but it’s the kind of inane nonsense I find mentally stimulating. 
 

(confession: I also mostly don’t like heel commentators)

Then I came to the bit about your being nostalgic for 2019 and how this has become more of a late capitalist venture. And as usual, I bristle against the concept that AEW was ever anything but. It was always the challenger brand looking for a big rights increase to reach profitability. And then Matt really crystallized something for me, which is that like him my experience of wrestling is more solitary than communal like yours. So why am I always bumping up against you and trying to clarify that I think you had blinders on this whole time? And it occurs to me that while I don’t think my perspective is wrong (who does?!), all I’m doing by engaging in a contradictory manner on this issue is trying to ask other people to start from a place of cynicism and close their heart off to things like I’m inclined to. And that’s a shitty thing to do, and I apologize for having engaged your posts in that way. And I think it fucking sucks that we’re here now having an existential dilemma about what it means that Ric Flair is on these shows in the year of our lord 2023. 

Now onto nostalgia: I think it’s a cheap trick to keep going to those wells, especially after they’ve long run dry. And it’s really troubling how dry some of the wells are. We did ECW nostalgia in mid-2000s WWE and then again in 2010s TNA. Were good! Hook doesn’t need the FTW belt as a crutch, and Impact certainly doesn’t need to be doing any Bully Ray vs Tommy Dreamer stuff! And with Sting and Flair, we already had our nostalgia time with them — in TNA a decade ago! We don’t need more! We’re good! 

And yet it’s undeniable how powerful some nostalgia is. The last concert I went to with multiple generations of my family involving multiple cars on the voyage was Elton John and he brought the fucking house down with a pretty diverse crowd. Nostalgia can bring people together. I heard so many versions of multiple generations of dudes going to see Top Gun: Maverick last year and how it brought people together in a way the movies hadn’t for them in ages (of all the movies that got bumped in 2020 because of the pandemic, nobody played their hand better than Cruise). I think the memberberries stuff does suck most of the time, but it can clearly be executed at a high level and brings great joy to many people. I don’t know if I want to take that joy away from people, but it’s also normally empty calories. I struggle with it.

And there are some wells that haven’t run dry! You have no formative memories of Steve Austin, but they haven’t rung that bell too many times. I think that last Spiderman movie is cynical CGI sludge, but I know what age I was when I first saw Tobey McGuire as Spiderman and can resentfully admit that shit activated something in me (it also helps that Tobey kind of fucked off and disappeared from movies for a while). I understand why people respond to this. 

 

But I really don’t like seeing Ric Flair these days and I get that too. 

On the topic of pandering: I think my favourite anything of the 2010s was Twin Peaks: The Return. Among the “legacy sequel” nostalgia trend, it was the most prickly and interesting and least pandering of the bunch. A beautiful misshapen object that seemed like it was designed to actively make people annoyed. Great vibes. Nobody likes to hear about anyone else’s dreams, but that rule doesn’t apply to David Lynch.  
 

To bring this back to wrestling, I’m one of those silly people who think we’re kind of in a movie star crisis. All this nostalgia and IP floating around, and very few stars really breaking through the noise. Tom Cruise is still a number one and Will Smith is still doing Bad Boys movies. Black Adam flops and the Rock cynically runs back to the Fast movies. For some people, culture peaked when they were a certain age, and they refuse to throw their action figures away. And I’m probably as guilty of it as anyone because I like some of it while rolling my eyes at people who indulge in versions of it I don’t get (there’s no way that new Ghostbusters movie is good, and the cool thing is I’ll never know for sure). It doesn’t feel like a coincidence that this culture resulted in Sting and Flair together on TV in 2023. And we enjoyed some of those Sting matches, and him authoring a worthy final chapter, so we participated in bringing us to this place. There’s a reason Tony thinks we want this. And it sucks.

I don’t know what the solution is. Tony’s as online as any of us. Maybe he’ll solve the problem, maybe he means it when he endlessly insists everything is fine. Maybe he can’t throw away his action figures. 
 

Merry Christmas and happy holidays to you and yours, Gordi. Thanks for letting us ramble at you. Hope you get more of what you want in the new year. I’m looking to hit play on as many matches in the Secret Santos thread as possible to wash the taste of Ric Flair on AEW TV out of my mouth. 

[Cobra Commander]

WBD is apparently gonna merge with Paramount, which feels like an added source of uncertainty for AEW and their TV situation

[John from Cincinnati]

Sting and Flair in a Yellowstone spinoff? 

[Technico Support]

@John from Cincinnati I really liked that long post.  Thanks!

I actually don't like nostalgia, which is funny because I'm pushing 50 and have watched wrestling since 1985.  I just feel like I want to see what's fun and current.  To me, the old guys had their time and I really don't need to see the Seniors Tour where they're brought out for a pop or to maybe reel in people who don't typically watch AEW.  I feel like AEW signing old acts is a combination of two things:

1) Hiring recognizable faces from yesteryear to bring in people who know Sting, Edge, Flair, etc. but don't really watch AEW

2) Tony's a fan and gets a kick out of having these guys around

For me, there's a real sliding scale of whether I want to see a "legend" (usually guys who are best known for WWE but not exclusively), whether I'm ambivalent, or whether I actively don't want them on my TV.  A big part of it is whether they're trying to do something cool and new, or are are at least being booked to their level.  Indulge me here:

Guys I'm good with:

• Chris Jericho: I really don't mind him at all.  He's been with AEW from the start, which counts for something, and his programs are inoffensive if not slightly above average.
• Sting: Sporadic appearances.  Fills a role very well and was never booked in AEW as a top guy.
• Bryan Danielson: He maybe shouldn't even be on this list.  He's awesome and is working at such a high level.  Ditto Moxley
• Dustin Rhodes: Just fine.  Still a good worker.  Fills a role and is at the level he should be at.
• Jeff Jarrett: see Dustin

Guys I'm ambivalent about:

• Jake Hager: Shrug
• Christian: I'm really on the fence here.  He's a good worker and I like his new gimmick.  So he's at least doing something different.  But I just don't really care.
• Paul Wight: I could do without him but he's not really working matches too much.
• Mark Henry: I have no idea what he does.  I don't like him because of some past statements (he was always the guy WWE trotted out to defend them when a black wrestler was publicly expressing discontent), but I don't care that much.

I wish they would go away:

• Billy Gunn: has ruined the Acclaimed's act and the trios belts lose value every day they have them
• The Hardys: I wouldn't miss them.  Jeff is complaining about not being booked at a higher level, yet got popped for his 67,345th DUI just before they were to win the belts.  Matt is boring.
• Adam Copeland: No desire to see him at all.  Doesn't bring anything to the table.  In the hottest run of his career, he was still like the #5 guy or even further down, a midcarder pretending to be a main eventer.  I FFWD'd his match vs Christian.  I just don't care.
• Saraya: I don't like her and she's not that good in the ring.  Taking up space in a division full of better workers who are already getting limited TV time.
• Flair: No fucking way.

Essentially, I want AEW to be more state of the art wrestling from guys who maybe haven't gotten a shot or vets who can still go and have something to prove.  If you're an older guy who can't exactly contribute at a higher level, I'd rather see you as an attraction or a midcard supporting role who's not dragging the younger guys down. 

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Technico Support

[Gordi the recovering AEW f]

 

It sure has been one hell of a year for great matches! I think my top 3 are Kenny vs Ospreay 1 @ WK, Bryan vs ZSJ @ WD, Bryan vs Okada @ FD; and Kento vs Nakajimmy 1 is probably up there too (it was NASTY) but there's a massive logjam after my obvious (to me) top 3. Male Wrestlers of the Year are probably Eddie Kingston, Bryan, Ospreay, Orange, and Speedball. Best match I saw live was probably Ospreay vs Shota. Best time I had was karaoke at Bodybar and hanging out with friends at Ranmaru Fest and the Osaka Castle Park O-Pro free show, and partying with Cooger and our many drinking buddies. I have a great bunch of wrestling pals I chat online with during Dynamite and big AEW or NJPW shows and they know how much I appreciate them. I also wanted to express my appreciation for everyone who has contributed to the discussion, on this thread in particular. Andy from Kansas and Matt from Segunda gave me a genuine bit of insight into my own character on this thread recently. Pro Wrestling is almost entirely a communal thing for me. Going to pandemic shows here in Japan was deeply unsatisfying for me, for example. Not just because it was weird to be quiet while Abdullah Kobayashi got thrown from a ladder onto thumbtacks, but mainly because we couldn't chat and share drinks and snacks... Even watching alone on my tablet I prefer to chat with my pals and have a drink and a snack and to know what they are eating and drinking... That's how this "former" AEW fan rolls! Anyway, I genuinely and sincerely appreciate everyone who wants to talk wrestling with me. I don't appreciate the dickheads who just constantly complain about the same things to the exclusion of all else and in denial of all evidence to the contrary and I kind of wish folks here would stop engaging with those pricks like there's any point in trying to argue rationally with flat-out trolls. But the appreciation outweighs that by a HUGE margin. It's  probably a mistake to name names because I am sure to forget someone OBVIOUS (and also likely to include someone who hasn't actually engaged in discussion with me recently). I apologise if you have argued with me, agreed with me, supported me, challenged me, laughed at my dad jokes, made me laugh, or whatever, and your name slipped my mind. But, more or less off the top of my head I want to thank Matt, Andy/John, Paul, Octo, Baltimore, Zen, Log, Infinit, twiz, Whatever Colletti's name used to be, Sharty, Dyno, Samm, Hamm, Bacon, Casey, Drew, Marcel, Stephanie, Tech, HAG, Zakk, Dream, Drew, Axe, Eivion, John, Porky, Smelly, Sturm, Craig, Dolph, Loco, Nice, etc etc etc (edit: Gorman, Kevin, Turtle, Lost, hobo, t... I almost forgot CURT, who INSPIRED THIS THREAD! I might keep adding names as they occur to me, or I might just leave it at this. You get the idea, probably) ...for the discussion. It adds a little to the overall quality of my life. It made this year better than it would have been without you all. That's a hell of a list of people to discuss wrestling with. Cheers! *pours one out for DEAN*

Edited January 1 by Gordi the former AEW fan

[Octopus]

I like being listed with my wrestling E-friends.

[Octopus]

Wine drinking. 

This has been a tough year outside of wrestling. lil Octopus having a few medical things (breathing issues on Father’s Day with an overnight in the hospital) that was expensive (he’s healthy and happy now, now need to worry) car theft that put us in a really tough spot and made me a little paranoid of the constant car sirens etc going off at night, a close friend going through a bad moment and taking it out on me (everything is good now and he wasn’t in a good space), a tough move due to finances that was stressful and physically beat us up pretty well, etc. 

Wrestling World:
I’ve been off and on watching and enjoying wrestling. A lot of the drama was silly and involved good memes but was ultimately a bummer.

One constant was Bryan Danielson. Hot dog, what an interesting year! A solid year of absolutely excellent matches and depressing injuries. Even with the time off I have him as my Wrestler of the Year. My match of the year is him vs Zack Sabre Jr (Which I rambled about here). I have it at my All Time #2. I can see it revolving around my top 4 though. 
 

Holy smokes I’m feeling this wine. I’m gonna pour myself more. lil Octopus is asleep and now so is wife Gazelle.

The back rack is an underrated move. I really appreciate Mox bringing it back into the fold last year (I believe) he really dogged in there. 

Nakajima is out of NOAH. I’m not deep enough into the Puro scene to wax too poetically about that, but he was my main desire to watch NOAH. Does this mean I should become a kinda All Japan fan? Do you think I can pull that off? 

Oh, this is an AEW thread. Let’s talk about WWE. I love the improvements. They’ll prob win promotion of the year and arguably rightfully so. Still, I’m more of a clips based watcher and occasional big events for them. Gunther is cool. I was a holdout in thinking he was always a Walter, but he earned respect as a Gunther. I enjoy the Bloodline matches to the level of appreciating it as a marker of the wrestling cultural times we are in within the ever turning wheel of history. Several matches stopping the action to prolong the story with a cutscene-esque moment that creates ramifications for the story going forward. MJF as a face started doing this whether mimicking what was working or merely moving along as a cog in history. So far though, even with so much I enjoy about WWE, it doesn’t give me the electrolytes I crave. There is a level of magic to the E that no one else can provide, but that physical struggle I see between Mox and Kingston grappling (even when a little sloppy) is what tickles my fancy the most. Even going from dudes chopping off and then going to unnecessary flips and then going to wild violence, etc, AEW is a lovely buffet. The Sports Entertainment is perfectly appreciated by me, but I like mixing it in with everything else. 

AEW THIS YEAR:

MJF started the year with the title he won by having the current champion’s mentor betray him. Then tossing it aside to show his distain for personal relationships (really, Regal was leaving but they came up with stuff to make it work). He was a heel that regularly cheated to stay on top. Amongst all the company drama, his reign was mostly unaffected. We hit the second half of the year and he starts his story with Adam Cole that slowly turns him face. The joke at first being who will turn on the other, it builds to actual friendship. Adam Cole’s injury possibly prolonged it, but like when Brit was in a wheelchair, lead to some beloved segments and character development. MJF is now a face. Clearly an underdog that is outmatched and outmanned to the point he can’t even hold on to his title physically. Despite being a very fiery babyface and able to withstand enormous pain and not give up, he still needs to cheat to win. We point to the Jay White match as a burial (maybe it was) but on paper it took a deadly elbow from the top rope to the outside floor, a diamond cutter flying over the top rope off the apron to the outside, and a diamond ring that is a super finisher. (The ambulance stuff for that event could be vacuum fun but was unnecessary to the story that was already told). Then the Demon stuff. Yada yada yada. He doesn’t trust Joe but has to. Joe proves untrustworthy. The match happens and MJF is clearly outmatched. He tries to cheat like he always does and Cole drops the ball by giving him the diamond ring that he always cheat with late. Joe proves superior. MJF is on his knees and Adam Cole is consoling him just as MJF consoled Cole the same exact way after All In. Only now MJF’s best and only friend betrays him with the same mask he got his title shot with, surrounded by a group of masked Jackie’s that did all the work. Just like how MJF poisoned the friendship of Regal with the BCC to gain gold, he lost gold because of poisoned friendship. A year long storyline that albeit very clunky and in a company that seemed like it was struggling with a vision to do bad PR and drama, managed to tell a great on-paper story. A lot of the wrestling wasn’t for me, but I admire that it was told. 

The Continental Classic was my favorite thing of the year. I really hope every year they manage to do this. We got Rush matches! Great Danielson bouts! Kingston fun. Brody is sweet! The in tournament arcs were what really tied it all together. Daniel Garcia’s inner Dance or No-Dance with Daddy Magic on commentary was a treat. Danielson being a competitive dick the entire time to be Kingston’s mid-boss was awesome. Kingston coming from behind to win it all after putting the titles on the line. Jay’s losing is going to likely continue as something to keep an eye on. The build up to the 3-Way semi-finals was cool. All in all, great booking. Maybe the best booker thing this year for AEW. Up for debate though. 

I need to rewatch the FTR vs Bang Bang Gang. Hot diggity dog. 

Christian’s dead dads and mom flirting persona has been top shelf enjoyable fun. 
Plenty of things I didn’t like, but I’ve talked about them enough while they were happening. A lot of good this year in AEW. I’m glad they’ve ended it strong and with me being more positive. 

I will not autocorrect or re read. I do not have a belly button. But I have a beak and nine brains. 

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

12 hours ago, Gordi the former AEW fan said:

[snipped]

My long game is to convince you to go to an Ice Ribbon show. I mean, look at Totoro Satsuki. Go support Totoro, Gordi. Pet her tiger.

[twiztor]

WARNING: SPOILERS WITHIN FOR THE CONTINENTAL CLASSIC, AEW WORLDS END, AND MAYBE OTHER THINGS. Also, it will probably be ramble-y.

Well Coach Tony, you did it. You crazy bastard, you got me to watch both Dynamite and Collision all December long. This is my busiest time of the year, and also the hardest for me to deal with, and you STILL got me to double my AEW consumption. Kudos. i hope when this tournament happens next year, it's a) not so compressed, and b) not entirely between Thanksgiving and New Years. 

CONTINENTAL CLASSIC
i know, these thoughts would probably be better suited to the thread dedicated solely to it, but i think my point will probably mesh better and intertwine with my overall thoughts. So i am putting it here, since i am already gazing at my navel and pontificating off the top of my dome.
The tournament itself produced some pretty great matches. But i honestly think it was too much, you know? Like the C2 dominated both Dynamite and Collisionfor the last 6-ish weeks, leaving little time for much else. I think that speaks to how much the front half of Worlds End felt underdeveloped. When you have three 20-minute matches each show, that's approximately half your total airtime. Speaking of which, did every match really need to be over 15 minutes? Nobody believed that Jay Lethal would win a single match in the tournament, and that he was just there to eat pins. Which is exactly how it played out. Speaking of things we didn't need in this tournament, Jon Moxley running the bracket was completely unnecessary. Dude's already the most protected guy on the roster and has wins over the majority of people in AEW. One more little complaint: where was the long-term selling? Danielson damn near lost an eye vs. Andrade, but by the next week, he was competing as if he were 100%. Moxley was practically crippled vs Switchblade, but went on to win the triple threat the next week with no lingering effects.  All that being said, it was nice to see Kingston get the big win. He was the right choice (Swerve would have also been completely deserving of this honor, but it was obvious the title was going to somebody that's "exclusive" to Collision to counter MJF's Dynamite title).

AEW'S INABILITY FOR A SUSTAINED PUSH
Hangman Page's world title reign was an afterthought- the story was in the chase, and then it fell off a cliff
the Acclaimed were massively over. it was 16 months ago that everyone was saying AEW should have pivoted and put the tag belts on them. Then they did, and it was forgettable. Now they're the trios champs and haven't been on tv since the first week of November. 
Ricky Starks. how many times has this dude been cut off at the knees? he is a great promo, can go in the ring, and is always over. so again, he's an afterthought on Worlds End (even if the Starks/Bill vs Omega/Jericho match went ahead, it was an empty feud). DO SOMETHING WITH THIS GUY!
What do Miro, Andrade, Keith Lee, and so many others have in common? They all came in with a lot of fan interest and a reputation of being 'underused'. How has that worked out for any of them in AEW? i'd argue that all of them are worse off than when they joined. Andrade's good showing in the C2 may be an outlier here.
How about the young talent the company was going to build around? Daniel Garcia is featured a lot, but loses all the time. Quite the fall from grace compared to when he was feuding with Danielson. Wheeler Yuta is the fall guy for BCC and just lost to Hook. i like Hook, but Yuta should have rolled him. Where's Lee Moriarty? Wardlow was nuclear hot last summer and is now a masked lackey. 
remember when AEW started and there were a lot of voices, mine included, that were willing to give AEW the benefit of the doubt on booking plans? only speaking for myself, but that goodwill has largely evaporated. 

GET JERICHO AND GUEVARA OFF MY TV. i don't give a fuck about their "will they, won't they" bullshit. Jericho is WAY FUCKING PAST his expiration date. and that was my take before all this rumor shit happening now. the breakup of JAS should have led to a long layoff for him. 

this is feeling very negative. Let's look at some positives:

i have enjoyed the shift that has been going on in AEW's house style. Originally, it was very Young Bucks-like, but the last year has seen a marked shift towards Blackpool Combat Club's rough-and-tumble brawling and Strong Style. but i fear it's going to go too far in that direction. a good balance is preferred. i assume the permanent addition of Ospreay will do a lot to counter this trend. 

SAMOA JOE. one of my favorites and now atop the company. i dig it.
CHRISTIAN CAGE is on fire right now with his character work. i hope the feud with Edge is coming to a close, because it's not doing a ton for me, but i don't dislike it, and the crowd is still into it.
CM PUNK is out of the company. i haven't said much about him, but he actively dragged down my enjoyment of the show. I hope he finds what he needs in WWE.
FTR is still one of the best tag teams going.
SWERVE STRICKLAND has elevated himself a LOT. the Hangman feud really showed it. Now is the time to capitalize.
THUNDER ROSA returns! her return match was no great shakes, but i'm excited for what's to come.
EL HIJO DEL VIKINGO. BLACK TAURUS. GRAVITY. KOMANDER. more luchadores, please!
hoping for more for the DON CALLIS FAMILY to do. HOBBS is way too good to be languishing and doing nothing. TAKESHITA as well, but they're both just in limbo. Plus, i'm still waiting for the Hobbs/Samoa Joe match that never materialized when they were feuding over the TV titles. 

i hope Jamie Hayter is cleared to return soon. She is sorely missed. 

@Gordi, thanks again for creating this space and getting the ball rolling. you're a good dude. i remember some time back, you were talking about a major factor in you enjoying AEW was so much chaos and the feeling that 'anything could happen' and that seemingly nothing was off-limits. i hated saying it at the time, but i wanted something slightly more straightforward. But i think we've gone too far in that direction, to the detriment of the company. It feels very contrived and obvious right now. Hoping for more chaos and unpredictability right alongside you now.
and @Octopus, i love reading your takes too. Everyone else, just assume i'm listing you here as well. 

[NikoBaltimore]

Lots of lovely posts to read on here.  So to counter the length of the posts I'll just add this:

My navel is still there and despite it all AEW is fine.  Dare I say it's even fucking great!

Thank you and goodnight *gazes at navel for another year*

Edited January 2 by NikoBaltimore

[Shartnado]

Due to all the eating done during the holidays, I can barely gaze at my navel at the moment, but I agree AEW is still doing fine, despite not being what it once was.

Match wise, this year was crazy, the PPV's were mostly insane, many different styles of awesome each time out.

Continental Classic ruled, so many other good things throughout the year.

I need to find a way to keep seeing the shows without delay, to keep the enthusiasm up this year too, if DAZN no longer carries AEW. Triller TV to the rescue, please?

[Technico Support]

I know the Bucks' promo Wednesday was a work, but I, too, would rather see younger talent get shots and "change the world" than watch old guys like Christian/Dustin.  I appreciate these guys and that they can still do it, but I don't need to kick off my new and different wrestling show with two guys whose initial hot runs were both over a quarter century ago.  Some people are like "this is the art of pro wrestling, two guys barely doing anything and still having a good match!"  And I'm like yeah but I don't want to see that.  There's something about that approach to wrestling that feels distasteful and somewhat anti-fan.  Like "we'll work you marks and take a night off and you'll love it!"  Anyway, different people come to this for different things and the seniors tour doesn't do it for me.

[Godfrey]

6 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

There's something about that approach to wrestling that feels distasteful and somewhat anti-fan.  Like "we'll work you marks and take a night off and you'll love it!"  Anyway, different people come to this for different things and the seniors tour doesn't do it for me.

Wow, what a stance! Cheers to you, Technico. I don’t get you at all

[Technico Support]

6 minutes ago, Godfrey said:

Wow, what a stance! Cheers to you, Technico. I don’t get you at all

LOOOL.  Different strokes.

To understand me, just know I'm a guy whose love for wrestling was revived by PWG in 2010.    I'd rather see action than something like Lawler stalling and hiding a mystery foreign object for a half hour.  Like yeah, that gets heat and nobody is straining themselves, but is it fun to watch?

Edited January 19 by Technico Support

[Godfrey]

18 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

LOOOL.  Different strokes.

To understand me, just know I'm a guy whose love for wrestling was revived by PWG in 2010.    I'd rather see action than something like Lawler stalling and hiding a mystery foreign object for a half hour.  Like yeah, that gets heat and nobody is straining themselves, but is it fun to watch?

It’s only fun if the heat pays off with good action which doesn’t always happen so fair play to you. Personally I like being worked, maybe not to the point of that Lawler example maybe but it’s fun for me to not be able to see through the sleight of hand

[Technico Support]

9 minutes ago, Godfrey said:

It’s only fun if the heat pays off with good action which doesn’t always happen so fair play to you. Personally I like being worked, maybe not to the point of that Lawler example maybe but it’s fun for me to not be able to see through the sleight of hand

Oh for sure.  And to be fair, I'm just citing an extreme example to prove my point. 

I guess it's two things at play here.  One is the minimalist work that I don't enjoy.  I understand there's art to doing less and making it mean more, but it's not something I enjoy watching.  Not to mention the old time carny, cynical feeling it conveys.  It's probably just me but that's not my thing.

The other is the "give the young guys a chance!" piece.  Why is Nick Wayne on the floor and so many other talented young guys in the dressing room while two guys whose age totals almost 105 are opening the show, fighting over what should be a stepping stone belt?  It takes me back to the days of late 90s WCW where internet fans were screaming about all the old guys getting TV time while internet darlings weren't seen above a certain level.  The "push the cruiserweights!" era.  And shit, at least the WCW old guys were proven draws.  I know Christian and Dustin are great workers, but neither was ever seriously a big star on their own.  It comes down to the question of, what is AEW's vision for these veterans' roles?  If they're just filling time in the midcard, why not instead do that with young guys who you're trying to build?

Edited January 19 by Technico Support

[Matt D]

1 hour ago, Godfrey said:

Wow, what a stance! Cheers to you, Technico. I don’t get you at all

I get him! I appreciate his point of view! The man wants sensation and innovation and action and drama in the moment. I just think that he should go to the circus and watch a stunt show instead.

[tbarrie]

38 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

The other is the "give the young guys a chance!" piece.  Why is Nick Wayne on the floor and so many other talented young guys in the dressing room while two guys whose age totals almost 105 are opening the show, fighting over what should be a stepping stone belt?  It takes me back to the days of late 90s WCW where internet fans were screaming about all the old guys getting TV time while internet darlings weren't seen above a certain level.  The "push the cruiserweights!" era.  And shit, at least the WCW old guys were proven draws.  I know Christian and Dustin are great workers, but neither was ever seriously a big star on their own.  It comes down to the question of, what is AEW's vision for these veterans' roles?  If they're just filling time in the midcard, why not instead do that with young guys who you're trying to build?

To me, the difference with late 90s WCW is that the old guys are nowhere close to monopolizing the top spots in AEW. I mean, yeah, Samoa Joe is on the old side, but before him MJF had their longest world title reign yet and I believe he's in his 20s. Hangman wasn't old; Kenny Omega wasn't old; Moxley is a veteran but I wouldn't call him old. Punk and Jericho were long in the tooth when they held the big belt, yes, but there's a big difference in my view between having veterans/old guys on your show and having them dominate the top like they did in 90s WCW.

So to segue into why they're there - I see a couple of reasons. First, having them on the roster can only help the young guys get better. Second, they offer a change of pace. You may not like slow, psychology-based matches, but a lot of people do. They're another ring in AEW's proverbial circus. If you like action-packed PWGesque matches, great, AEW still has a shit-ton of those. Nothing wrong with showcasing another style as well, though. Variety makes for a better show.

[Technico Support]

59 minutes ago, Matt D said:

I get him! I appreciate his point of view! The man wants sensation and innovation and action and drama in the moment. I just think that he should go to the circus and watch a stunt show instead.

Yes, because wanting something more fun than "two vets worked a headlock, a punch, and an eye poke for 45 minutes, it was boring, but the marks in the building ate it up, five stars" means I should just watch the circus.  The only good wrestling was done by drunk bigots 50 years ago, I guess.

[Godfrey]

33 minutes ago, tbarrie said:

Nothing wrong with showcasing another style as well, though. Variety makes for a better show.

I think this is true, so long as the matches all still make sense when taken together. Sometimes AEW is like watching a comp tape in one promotion as opposed to a single show

[John from Cincinnati]

Just going to take the strange developments in this thread as proof that guys like Dustin don’t need to be hitting destroyers on the floor (which I don’t necessarily mind them doing), because the people they’re trying to please with that will still want them to go away. 

[Octopus]

I feel AEW isn’t old enough. Give me the dream match of El Satanico vs Hacksaw Jim Dugan

[Curt McGirt]

3 hours ago, Technico Support said:

"we'll work you marks and take a night off and you'll love it!"

That's... not... the... point... It's that they can do so little and make so much out of it. FFS, if you want bombs and flips then the rest of the card is right fucking there. The "old guys working slow" is in the far, far minority on these shows. And Bucks are supposed to be heeling on that point; you're not supposed to be LIKING that they're being assholes about it. 

*sigh* Why am I bothering

[tbarrie]

12 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

*sigh* Why am I bothering

Because Technico is expressing their views politely and respectfully, even if they differ from yours and mine? I'm not sure why you seem angry about it.

[Curt McGirt]

I'm not angry, except maybe at myself a little bit for even saying anything. It won't change anyone's mind.