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15 hours ago, Godfrey said:

I think Cody's heel progression has reached the point when they can pull the trigger any day now and it would work. We've had a few matches in which he's used outright heel tactics to win and last night Kingston pointed out his hypocrisy in only taking easy challengers because he's afraid to lose the title. He doesn't need to lose the belt to turn (although losing it before he even gets a chance to wear the finished version would be funny) but unless they have another Starks or Kingston (or this Warhorse fella, who I have not yet seen) they need to debut, I think the table has been adequately set. If that is the story they do want to tell, of course.

Kingston's call of Cody taking on weaker challengers or 'children' or whatever read more like a heel diss than truth.  Cody as the face could surely make an argument for any of those picks.  Certainly Gorilla Monsoon would agree that Starks and Jungle Boy in particular are 'no slouches'.  He might add that Starks or Jungle Jack vs. Cody 'could be a main event in any arena in the world'.   

There's a lot of talk week to week of a Cody heel turn.  I definitely see the heel tropes from time to time, but those tactics could also be viewed as intelligently playing the game.  And further the pure whitemeat babyface feels a bit passe (see a decade of John Cena for example).  I'm not trying to suggest Cody won't turn heel, but why so much clamouring for it?   There's a lot of talk about good promos in this week's thread.  Few have topped some of Cody's big babyface promos - especially the build to the Jericho bout.  It seems like good babyfaces and especially babyface promos are kinda difficult to come by.  Losing Cody's babyface promo and the way he excites the crowds (then and hopefully again) seems like a misstep to me.   At least right now.  I mean inevitably he'll play a heel at some point.  I just don't need that to happen any time soon.  

Edited by HarryArchieGus
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1) the tattoo

2) there's a shelf life to Cody's babyface promos and he's kind of hit the big notes for now. 

3) he's really been laying it on thick with the disingenuous promos lately coming from a clear position of privilege but denying it and saying he works harder than everybody else. 

4) he has been working like a heel particularly since winning the TNT title. 

5) that smile

6) the tattoo adds to all of it. 

7) he's been indirectly and directly hinting at it. Even going so far as saying the only way to find out if a horsemen stable would work in aew is trying it. FTR are such an obvious stand in for Arn and Tully plus it would be the ultimate betrayal of his father to be Ric Flair and not Dusty. 

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20 hours ago, Jiji said:

I think somebody like Regal cut better promos than Punk.

And agreed on Dusty's high end stuff. That WarGames promo with Dustin is my favourite of his and it's just about the best ever. But Ric has dozens of all timers and then every other promo he did was at least super entertaining.

How the fuck had I not seen that '93 Vader build-up promo? It is SO GOOD.

Regal's challenge of Triple H for Eugene is better than any Punk promo I can remember.

 

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Well, the tattoo is certainly hard to argue with.  I don't agree that the shelf life of his babyface run has passed any sort of expiry.  I mean he hasn't worn out his welcome with me.  Or the crowds (pre).  Again, Cody works in some heel moves, etc. but I don't see his TNT Title run as if he's been overtly a heel.  Am I forgetting any sort of obvious cheat to win? 

Any references to the disingenous nature of his promos?  Certainly a boldness and confidence, but he's a well dressed affluent babyface and has been since day 1.

Again, I'm not suggesting he won't turn heel at some point.  I just don't feel any need for it right now.  A unit with FTR, seeing how they've been featured thus far, would as of now still be sort of a babyface faction.  I mean they hang with the Hangman, and he's not exactly who the crowd is going to want to boo.  

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38 minutes ago, HarryArchieGus said:

Well, the tattoo is certainly hard to argue with.  I don't agree that the shelf life of his babyface run has passed any sort of expiry.  I mean he hasn't worn out his welcome with me.  Or the crowds (pre).  Again, Cody works in some heel moves, etc. but I don't see his TNT Title run as if he's been overtly a heel.  Am I forgetting any sort of obvious cheat to win? 

He exposed a turnbuckle and was generally wrestling like a heel against Sonny Kiss last week. Nothing that would cross the line because he hasn't turned yet but he really has been hinting at it. 

I think the PPV match with MJF was a turning point for at least my souring on Cody as super mega babyface. The tattoo debuted, his entrance was the most self-indulgent thing he's done yet in a long line of self-indulgent actions, and that band was truly atrocious. The match really under-delivered after a fantastic build too. Since then it's mostly been a tonal shift in his promos where he's defending his position as TNT champion and his spot by talking about outworking everybody else and grinding. Kingston was 100% right to call him on his bullshit. Cody's even been doing a lot of four finger scratches of his face and subtle hand gestures recently. I keep noticing it. I think it's hella intentional even if it's not the end game, to get dorks like me thinking it's coming. His promos in year 1 were endearing and emotionally charged, now they're more self-righteous in nature. Even ultimate bad man Arn Anderson is having to try to keep his ego in check and wondering what he's doing sometimes. You'd think that if they were doing a horsemen shtick, they'd have Tully and Arn together for that but it really seems like, with Tully closely watching his match with Kiss, Cody will turn on Arn as part of the betrayal. If they try and run with Spears in that group, he will flop even harder being closely associated with top flight heels in FTR and Cody. The Windham glove has done him no favours in that it's just another failed layer to his dork onion character that lines him up unfavourably with Barry Windham's 4 Horsemen tenure. He's not Barry, he's Paul Roma if he's lucky. I'm sure he's a super nice guy and he has a really good physique and his fundamentals are awesome but he's just not a guy who should be more than what he is right now on AEW. He's an Impact level dude and always has been.

It's been 2 days. Why haven't they signed Kingston yet? Angle? NWA? NOT INTERESTED? I swear if Warhorse sticks around and Kingston doesn't... I WILL BE VERY UPSET! VERY UPSET! HMPH.

Edited by Jiji
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The reason I dislike Cody and JR is because both are examples of harmful aspects of wrestling that I'd hoped would go away with this new progressive company.

Cody is the guy with power who does whatever he feels like, regardless of whether it makes sense, is entertaining, or is good for the company.  He's just out there cosplaying Flair, or dressing in Star Trek gear, getting his wife and friends put in angles nobody likes, gaming the system so his title sometimes comes across as more important, etc.  There's nothing to Cody except for Cody pleasuring himself.  He goes out there with his stupid hammer and smashes that throne when really he's no better than HUN-TOR was at his worst.

Ross was the guy who carried out Vince's worst body guy wishes in an era where all the men were pressured to be gassed up and dying and all the women were pressured to have big fake titties and be nothing more than eye candy in lingerie matches.  On commentary he praises guys who are getting more muscular, buries guys who are softer, and says things about women's looks.

I'd hoped for better in AEW; it's the only national company I watch.  So this stuff bothers me a lot.

Edited by Technico Support
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For all those Jim Ross lovers out there, hahaha. HE'S SHOOTING *Shane Douglas*.

Quote

“The issue is, not everybody listens. They think that somethings [in the industry] ‘suck’. We don’t have tag ropes anymore because some of our crew think it’s lame. I think it’s bullsh*t. Heels need rules to break.”

...

“Most of them listen in and are appreciative” Jim Ross would continue. “I can tell when their eyes go off the topic. If I’m talking to you and you ain’t looking at me in the eye? You ain’t listening. So why should I waste my breath?”

 

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I've said this before. But even though NXT and AEW are taping under similar circumstances, AEW has this aura of being lively and unpredictable. NXT comes off as very forced like every little thing you see has been micro managed down to the millisecond. Honestly NXT went from having that old school feel to that forced and fake feeling the moment Vince decided to throw it up against AEW. 

It could just be viewer burnout on my part. I mean if your a WWE diehard and you actually watch all of RAW, NXT, and Smackdown that's 7 hours a damn week. I barely made it a half hour through RAW total. I think i watched like maybe three minutes of NXT. Right now AEW is red hot. They really have that "don't change the channel" feel to them and its been a long time since anyone had that.

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Not to detour too much into JR, but as a guy that shares a lot of the same instincts in terms of what makes good pro wrestling (logic, rules matter, legit athletic backgrounds are a good thing, 1983-1986 Mid South is my favorite run of a promotion ever) I’d love to see a Grilling JR on Bash 92 because I think that’s as close to a Jim Ross Promotions show as possible, and it sucks balls outside of Sting/Vader. Not that Conrad would ever confront Ross over it.

I think JR’s a good guy to have in the room, but if given the book I imagine taking his view of ideal pro wrestling to an extreme would be pretty damn...boring. 

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I just recently rewatched GAB 92....how much is that Watts and how much of that was JR? I mean I don't think it's fair to malign JR for his mentor's awful backwards thinking cause your right for the most part. It goes off the rails once they have the bring out the same teams again. The Clash the month before (which was taped before Beach Blast but aired after Beach Blast which is fucking strange..that's Watts for you) was also the same format except no singles match to break all that shit up.

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2 hours ago, Jiji said:

He exposed a turnbuckle and was generally wrestling like a heel against Sonny Kiss last week. Nothing that would cross the line because he hasn't turned yet but he really has been hinting at it. 

I think the PPV match with MJF was a turning point for at least my souring on Cody as super mega babyface. The tattoo debuted, his entrance was the most self-indulgent thing he's done yet in a long line of self-indulgent actions, and that band was truly atrocious. The match really under-delivered after a fantastic build too. Since then it's mostly been a tonal shift in his promos where he's defending his position as TNT champion and his spot by talking about outworking everybody else and grinding. Kingston was 100% right to call him on his bullshit. Cody's even been doing a lot of four finger scratches of his face and subtle hand gestures recently. I keep noticing it. I think it's hella intentional even if it's not the end game, to get dorks like me thinking it's coming. His promos in year 1 were endearing and emotionally charged, now they're more self-righteous in nature. Even ultimate bad man Arn Anderson is having to try to keep his ego in check and wondering what he's doing sometimes. You'd think that if they were doing a horsemen shtick, they'd have Tully and Arn together for that but it really seems like, with Tully closely watching his match with Kiss, Cody will turn on Arn as part of the betrayal. If they try and run with Spears in that group, he will flop even harder being closely associated with top flight heels in FTR and Cody. The Windham glove has done him no favours in that it's just another failed layer to his dork onion character that lines him up unfavourably with Barry Windham's 4 Horsemen tenure. He's not Barry, he's Paul Roma if he's lucky. I'm sure he's a super nice guy and he has a really good physique and his fundamentals are awesome but he's just not a guy who should be more than what he is right now on AEW. He's an Impact level dude and always has been.

It's been 2 days. Why haven't they signed Kingston yet? Angle? NWA? NOT INTERESTED? I swear if Warhorse sticks around and Kingston doesn't... I WILL BE VERY UPSET! VERY UPSET! HMPH.

Interesting about the 4 finger scratch.  I didn't catch that.  You certainly give good reason as to why it could happen.  Your reasons for why you want it to happen are certainly valid.  And yeah I would agree his Revolution PPV entrance was signature wrestlecrap.  But that was ultimately Tony Khan's decision.  He sees Cody as a star.  Many of us do.  It was an attempt at a big PPV entrance.  I certainly don't blame them for trying.  I definitely don't blame Cody.  Nor do I blame him for any shortcomings in the MJF match.  Friedman is improving every time out, but he was very inconsistent at the time of that match.  It wasn't great, but I think we all knew it was going to be difficult for Max J. to live up to the hype they created. 

Most of what you've shared is your personal interest in seeing him go heel, and that's cool.  To each their own.  As mentioned, I think it would be a shame to lose his fire-y babyface promo and current fandom.  I also think he's an excellent hype man for the company, and I'd worry that a heel turn might have a poor effect on that. 

Ha, can't we just wait till the majority, or a large portion of the audience, feels the way you do?  

Yeah, the glove is another attempt to get Spears over, and it failed before it started.  I still think they had something with the 'Search for Spears'.  I thought it was a better utilization of Tully too.  And would have been great to see him behind a team.  That whole thing needs to come back.  As a singles performer, Spears is where he ought to be.  

I know you're just throwing something out there, but I hate the idea of a turn on Arn.  If he goes heel Arn's gotta be leading him there.   

Yeah, who knows whats happening with Kingston, but if they're (and in all likely hood they are) keeping it a mystery to allow for Eddie to surprise us, the audience, I'm all for it.  Seems to me there's very little chance he's not coming in.  This is not a company that ignores its audience.    
 

1 hour ago, Phantom Lord said:

I've said this before. But even though NXT and AEW are taping under similar circumstances, AEW has this aura of being lively and unpredictable. NXT comes off as very forced like every little thing you see has been micro managed down to the millisecond. Honestly NXT went from having that old school feel to that forced and fake feeling the moment Vince decided to throw it up against AEW. 

It could just be viewer burnout on my part. I mean if your a WWE diehard and you actually watch all of RAW, NXT, and Smackdown that's 7 hours a damn week. I barely made it a half hour through RAW total. I think i watched like maybe three minutes of NXT. Right now AEW is red hot. They really have that "don't change the channel" feel to them and its been a long time since anyone had that.

I remember a few years back seeing an NXT show and thinking exactly what you've written, so I'm not entirely sure that the format has changed all that much (tho, I saw only a couple random episodes).  Because of that show, or shows I watched, I didn't pay any attention to the Takeovers.  When I finally did see one, the NY Takeover (with Riddle-Strong, Cole-Gargano), I was blown away.  Its a major contributor to why I'm sharing opinions on a message board now.  I was also blown away going back and seeing DIY-FTR and a number of other matches.  Anyway, I think your comment about how NXT is presented is on the money.  

Edited by HarryArchieGus
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ive always thought he was a heel pretending to be a baby face, just like in real life. 😉

Edited by odessasteps
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I think JR has a fair amount of value because he really is a guy with enough name value to wrestling fans that he will attract the curious/lapsed wrestling fan. A fair number of people that don't give a fuck about current wrestling still know who JR is and will tune in at least once if he's there. So I do understand him as an investment even just for that alone. It's pretty obvious he's not super invested in some of what AEW is doing because it isn't his style, and I know he doesn't like 3-man booths either. I don't think he's been great in AEW but I think some people are also way too hung up on JR's own quirks just because they've been overexposed to them over the last quarter century. For me Excalibur and Tony (who seems to be having SO MUCH FUN all the time now) have more than balanced it out after all is said and done. I'm kind of lukewarm with Taz on Dark, because he does that indie commentary thing where he'll say stuff like shoot or stiff or other shit you really don't need to break the fourth wall over, but when he avoids that he's fine.

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The Jim Ross hate is a bit of a head scratcher to me.  I mostly dig crotchety JR.  Tony annoys me more than JR with his 'I've never seen that' type oversells.  I don't dislike 2020 Schiavone, but those oversells sometimes trigger me to recall how irritating it was to be forced to listen to the Schiavone of WCW yesteryear.  The goodwill for Tony has a lot of ppl forgetting how awful he was in that era.  2020 JR is like a dream compared to that.

I also dig JR's pod, and feel compassion for his terrible loss. 

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crotchety JR actively takes away from what's on-screen because it's drawing attention to things that almost literally nobody watching cares about.

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10 minutes ago, Casey said:

crotchety JR actively takes away from what's on-screen because it's drawing attention to things that almost literally nobody watching cares about.

Like college football.

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The Bucks/B&B peaking at over a million viewers is wild.  Wouldn’t have expected that.  Good for them.

Edited by EVA
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18 minutes ago, EVA said:

The Bucks/B&B peaking at over a million viewers is wild.  Wouldn’t have expected that.  Good for them.

PEPPER PARKS AND ALLIE THE WRESTLING POWER COUPLE WE DIDN'T KNOW WE NEEDED!

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If the internet existed in 1988, Wrestling boards would have been packed with people begging for Dusty to turn heel.

As far as Jim Ross goes, between him getting horny for buff guys and Penelope (and it's odd that it's just her, considering she's far from the only attractive Woman in the company) and his old school grouchiness, he does seem to detract more than he enhances. The Mox vs Hager empty arena match (that he called solo) really showed that he can't hype a match up any more.

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1 minute ago, AxB said:

(and it's odd that it's just her, considering she's far from the only attractive Woman in the company)

Well, for a couple weeks there, Penelope was moving numbers so he ain't the only one with a thing for her.

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