APRIL 2020 WRESTLING DISCUSSION

[For Great Justice]

Shout out to Bill Watts in the category of “promoter/booker on color commentary to help get his stories over”. He was great at that. 

I also will never understand the pre-internet dirt sheet crowd view of Gorilla as terrible. When I first discovered this, I thought well maybe I was a kid and it was all nostalgia and he sucked, but even watching now he’s really good. Never understoood it.

[Guest Edwin]

And there's this cool bit of trivia:

 

[Curt McGirt]

49 minutes ago, Edwin said:

Bobby Jaggers from those late 80s WWC commercial releases was rough

Boy is that an understatement. 

I like the guy in that Cain clip that looks like either a Goomba from Mario the movie or Pinhead from Puppet Master. 

Also, I had a dream about working for Bill Watts as a school janitor last night. He kept making me do more and more stuff so I cussed him out and quit. I guess I managed to escape before he beat my ass.

[Unnatural]

One announcer who would crack us up was this RoH guy who would yell DANGEROUS at certain "instant death" spots. Someone even went and made a YouTube compilation of him yelling it during various matches on KILLER MOVES!! Lmao he was meh on commentary but then someone hits a crazy finisher or dive and he just yells DANGEROUS like the whole ring gonna collapse.

Not saying he was a fave, just his Dangerous yell always cracked me and my cousins up when we'd toss a new VHS tape in and sit down to catch matches we'd heard praised for months.

Cole and Tazz were a fave of mine, what little I actually remember about them at least. 

[Unnatural]

2 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

Boy is that an understatement. 

I like the guy in that Cain clip that looks like either a Goomba from Mario the movie or Pinhead from Puppet Master. 

 

Real talk, hahaha, I have this mechanic who does jobs for my car and my dads, I met him through my stepbrother so the guy always takes care of us

But I had to quote and reply because the guys name is Mario and legit he looks like a Goomba facially from the Super Mario movie!

First time I met him in person I had to text my siblings and send them a screenshot of the live action Goombas since they probably hadn't seen the movie since elementary school Now they'd met Mario plenty of times so when I mentioned how he looked like a Goomba oh man we were all LAUGHING the rest of the afternoon hahahahaha!

Cain to Bloodsport, to get on topic, would be sick! I've only seen one Bloodsport, where Allie came out and there were some big Japanese stars headlining, but damn that's one fed I'd love to see holding quarterly events when shows pop back up, whenever that may happen.

[caley]

5 hours ago, AxB said:

Announce team content? Ok, let's old school it:

Best Announce Team: Short lived and obscure, but the most fun I've ever had listening to announcers talk was Gordon Solie & Lord Steven Regal on WCW Worldwide.

Worst Announce Team: WWE's gets progressively worse as Vince adds more foibles and bans more phrases, forces people to repeat taglines over and over. Also a lot of their announcers are legitimately awful people (except Mauro). So some sort of Lawler/ Graves/ Layfield / Ranallo/ Cole combination would be the worst.

Most Overrated Announce Team: Lots of people have fond memories of the Ross & Lawler duo. False memory syndrome. They sucked the whole time.

Most Underrated Announce Team: Schiavone & Ventura. Tony was really good before he became a Monday Night Wars overseller. Jesse was always good with any partner, but his WWF era partners like Gorilla and Vince were pretty annoying and not as much fun as Tony.

Honourable Mentions: Personally, I never could get into Bobby Heenan. Probably because the first time I heard him it was in WCW and he was clearly only there for the paycheck at that point. Seemed bored and lazy, when he was sober. But loads of you lads grew up on him and have fond memories, so I'll give him an honourable mention to acknowledge his existence. 

Kent Walton and Joey Styles were both best as solo announcers, not as part of announce teams. Although Joey outed himself as a massive cunt eventually. Kent Walton didn't. He just became a softcore porn producer instead. 

Styles depends largely on what era Styles you're listening to.  He was pretty bad in late-era ECW, shoehorning "OH MY GOD" in wherever he could.  But man, I watched some Eastern Championship Wrestling TV the other day and he was absolutely unlistenable.  That shouting voice he does when something happens in mid-to-late era ECW ("It's NEW JACK! NEW JACK IS HERE!")?  He uses it constantly.  Someone told him to turn it up to 11 and stay there: "PAT TANAKA WITH AN ARMDRAG! HE PUTS FUNK IN A HEADLOCK!  FUNK GETS UP TO A VERTICAL BASE!"

Anyways:

BEST TEAM: I don't know if I ever enjoyed an announce team as much as Schivone/Dusty.  I liked Venture, too.  For WWE, it's probably sacrilege but I think the first iteration of Cole and JBL was probably their best, most consistent team.  Cole would just call the action, JBL would defence the heels, crack some jokes and poke fun at Cole but it never felt like they hated each other.  Every time they added a third man, it would go down as JBL would just steamroll whoever was with them (Byron).  I actually think Phillips, Saxton and Joe could be a really good trio if given the chance.

WORST TEAM: Josh Matthews and Jeremy Borash.  They were doing this feuding announcers thing like WWE (Which was bad) but this was unlistenable.  Borash would say something, then Matthews would talk over him playing a pseudo-heel character but still trying to cal PBP over Borash who was also trying to call PBP.  Mercifully, it didn't last very long.  Honourable mention to the Cole, Graves, and Coachman team which was just Cole and Graves literally waiting for Coachman to misspeak so they could pouond on him and make fun of him.

MOST OVERRATED: JR and Heyman.  Heyman was trying to do a very old-schoolish heel announcer role, few jokes.  Ross was clearly ticked off about his partner being dumped and overplayed the face role, disagreeing with everything Heyman said.  They had little to no chemistry (Which was weird because the one syndicated WCW show I used to get in the early 90s was Ross, Dangerously and Missy Hyatt and they worked well together then) and just did NOT work well together.

UNDERRATED: Matt Striker and Vampiro.  Man, do I dislike most (Almost all) of Striker's announcing ("I'm marking out!") but he and Vampiro worked perfectly together in the first 2-3 seasons of Lucha Underground (I didn't stick around much past the second season).  Striker sold the onscreeen lunacy like death while Vampiro reacted to big moves, talked about lucha and got involved in a reasonably believable way.

HONOURBLE MENTIONS:

=I actually thought Joel Gertner was particularly well-suited to late-era ECW, letting Styles call the action and make dirty jokes or cheer for the heels in between.  I could never understand why they would have him on the weekly show but find a reason to take him off the PPV broadcasts and replace him with Cyrus.  I mean I get that the weekly shows were taped and they could script and edit him but the show was such rampaging nonsense for the last so many months but they still did it to get Cyrus on, when Gertner worked better with Styles anyways. 
-I actually really liked Renee Young on the announce team, added a different-sounding voice to the equation.  I think if she had started with Phillips instead of Cole and Graves, she would have found her footing a little better. 
-That kind of snorting/grunting noise Booker T does when someone hits a big move in a match, to me, gets a guy way more over than anything Corey Graves has ever, or will ever do on commentary.  Like,  when Booker T does it, it feels earned like "Wow, that was something!" whereas everything Graves says sounds like it comes from the Bobby Heenan playbook which he has read but not understood.
-Vince McMahon is underrated as a PBP guy.  He could never go back to it now, because he's played and pushed the Mr. McMahon character so far over the years.  But before Montreal, McMahon was absolutely perfect for WWF-style wrestling.  He didn't need to call moves by the right names, because it didn't really matter.  He would laugh like a lunatic for things the faces said or did (Go watch the the scene where Doink trips Bam Bam with the tripwire and McMahon sounds like he's going to have a heartattack from laughing so hard at it) and he was and is, hands-down, the best at sounding angry when a wrestler crosses the line (Listen to him in early Austin 3:16 when he attacks Pat Patterson: "That's hall-of-famer Pat Patterson!"
-I actually think Colt Cabana is not a bad colour commentator.  *ducks*  No, seriously, you know where he would have been a much better fit than AEW, is back in WWE, announcing alongside Tom Phillips.  He has a pretty decent wrestling knowledge, can play the tweener role a bit, and loves a good poop joke. I think he's much better commentator than a wrestler.  *ducks again*

DISHONOURABLE MENTIONS

-Mark Madden is hands-down the worst of anything ever.  When he would say "Snootchie bootchies, Tony!  Snootchie bootchies." you could practically hear him elbowing Schiavone in the ribs like "GEt it? Get iT?"  There was no match so bad, that he couldn't bring it down further with his commentary.
-Jerry Lawler was probably never good.  I used to think he was good before he just perved out every episode, but I went back and watched some of his earlier WWF stuff and he was just as bad then (I know I mentioned it in the Raw thread a few weeks back, but one one of the shows they had WWF announcer Bonnie Blackstone and Lawler talked about "her ugly mug" and made dog whistles at her while calling "Here Bonnie!").
-CM Punk wasn't a very good wrestling announcer.  Everything about him and his promos made him seem like he'd be good but it just wasn't.  Him bullying Scott Stanford wasn't entertaining either, just kind of uncomfortable and only tolerated/loved by wrestling fans because of who it was.  You do that exact same pairing with JBL and Stanford with all the same lines, and we'd be hearing over and over about what a bully JBL was for it.
-*preemptively ducks* I don't really care for the Schiavone/Jericho pairing.  Jericho swings wildly from cartoony heel announcer to trying to explain holds and Schiavone spends too much time laughing at and with Jericho.

Edited April 28, 2020 by caley

[Raziel]

Best - Tony/Bobby/Dusty, I will die on this hill.  Monsoon/Ventura is second.

Now, *I* like Kelly/Charlton/Gambino/Rocky variations on NJPW English, but that's a combo of "my favorite promotion" and "They clear a pretty low bar set by pretty much everyone else", although I like Tony/Excalibur when they're JR-less.

I feel like guys like Russel and Caudle never really get their due, due to Caudle getting overshadowed by Ross and Russel never getting a National shot.

[LoneWolf&Subs]

7 minutes ago, caley said:

=I actually thought Joel Gertner was particularly well-suited to late-era ECW, letting Styles call the action and make dirty jokes or cheer for the heels in between.  I could never understand why they would have him on the weekly show but find a reason to take him off the PPV broadcasts and replace him with Cyrus.  I mean I get that the weekly shows were taped and they could script and edit him but the show was such rampaging nonsense for the last so many months but they still did it to get Cyrus on, when Gertner worked better with Styles anyways. 

Yuch, no... Cyrus actually brought out the best in Styles, and hid his worst tendencies. Gertner was as bad as Rude, in that they never sounded like they were ever with Styles, and recorded all their lines separately. Which is probably why they didn’t have him do live broadcasts, because he couldn’t re-record his commentary.

Edited April 29, 2020 by LoneWolf&Subs

[Curt McGirt]

David Crockett really deserves a nod on here. Enthusiastic to the point of goofy, but nice enough to take seriously. Just kind of an "aw shucks" guy that you could mark out with.

Always liked Marc Lowrance too, he had good levity, if that's the word for it. I know this is about teams but I can't think of any team pairing they had that was off or anything. 

Edited April 29, 2020 by Curt McGirt

[AxB]

 

[Johnny Sorrow]

My favorite announce team is Lance Russell and Dave Brown. As far as worst, nobody comes close to Bill Mercer.

[Web Conn]

Who was better/worse McMahon or Bischoff?

[LoneWolf&Subs]

10 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

David Crockett really deserves a nod on here. Enthusiastic to the point of goofy, but nice enough to take seriously. Just kind of an "aw shucks" guy that you could mark out with.

 

He also knew the names of the wrestlers signature offense, and put over faces & heels without a fuss. I like Ventura, and Heenan more, but somebody consistent like Crockett can pay off a lot more in ways.

[AxB]

You know who's good at commentary? Both Jeff @Gorman and @DylanWaco Hales are really good.

Can we all agree that announcers who don't get on IRL are usually bad, whereas announcers who are legit friends but have a 'wind each other up' commentary gimmick are good? But when you take it further and they're actually having a commentary feud, that's just the worst?

[Jiji]

"Look at him, Toe-nay!" 

Crockett fits in well with Dusty and Booker in the enjoyable over-the-top energy crew. I actually don't love Booker's commentary because IIRC he'd do a bunch of weird vet takes at inappropriate times and kind of shit on stuff pretty frequently but when he was into something it really made whatever you were watching way better.

[LoneWolf&Subs]

14 minutes ago, Web Conn said:

Who was better/worse McMahon or Bischoff?

Bischoff was better in the 90’s. McMahon was better in the 80’s. Vince’s 80’s was better, than Eric’s 90’s. McMahon was pretty terrible at putting over his stars, personalities, jokes, and gimmicks in the 90’s. Like none of it ages well in retrospect. Some of his late 80’s is pretty awful too. He was never a Gordon, or Lance that’s for sure on his best day. His best 90’s moment Pre-Attitude was the Prime Time where Perfect turned face, but he still goes over the top at the end with the laughs. 

Is there anything less unattractive than Vince’s laughs? If he wasn’t born into wealth he’d be an unbearable person to be around. He’s probably also not very funny, probably confident, but about as funny as Ziggler in real life.

Edited April 29, 2020 by LoneWolf&Subs

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

AEW has sold me on the idea that Tony Schiovane is at least in contention for the best announcer of all time, but has me convinced that he's definitely the most versatile.

Just as good as being a moves play by play type guy as he is being able to sell the storylines and the drama. 

All of his terrible stuff with late WCW - no-one else would have done better in that position, and seems to get it as a black mark against his name, whereas people praise Heenan for being less interested.

He's been an integral part of some great teams and partnerships, and in 2020, he doesn't feel anywhere near as dated as Jim Ross, despite starting around the same time. He's done the territories era, the rock n wrestling era, the attitude era, and the present, and he doesn't stand out awkwardly amongst any of them. 

I relate to his current stuff as just guy genuinely interested in the sport and having a good time, and it stands out really well in an era of guys being force fed lines on the headset to say this or that.

[LoneWolf&Subs]

It’s like Tony is back in his old role in 80’s Georgia. That’s how I see it. 

Edited April 29, 2020 by LoneWolf&Subs

[clintthecrippler]

On the topic of Joey Styles, I believe the best commentary run of his career was that first year or so of ECW PPV's where he was essentially forced to pace himself for three straight hours, so he actually used "inside voice" for a good chunk of the show and since Paul Heyman was juggling a dozen other production duties since it was a live PPV, he wasnt as overproduced and came off the most natural he ever did during that run as well. 

[Guest Edwin]

45 minutes ago, Web Conn said:

Who was better/worse McMahon or Bischoff?

Man, this is a tough one.

I'd take "OH, WHAT A MANEUVER!" and "ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN IN THE WWF!" Vince over Bischoff from what I recall, but to be honest I haven't revisited any RAW's or Nitro's in a while.

[Nice Guy Eddie]

1 hour ago, Hayabusa said:

One announcer who would crack us up was this RoH guy who would yell DANGEROUS at certain "instant death" spots. Someone even went and made a YouTube compilation of him yelling it during various matches on KILLER MOVES!! Lmao he was meh on commentary but then someone hits a crazy finisher or dive and he just yells DANGEROUS like the whole ring gonna collapse.

Not saying he was a fave, just his Dangerous yell always cracked me and my cousins up when we'd toss a new VHS tape in and sit down to catch matches we'd heard praised for months.

 

That same "Dangerous" announcer also was the best booker in wrestling from 2003-2008.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Nice Guy Eddie

[Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie]

As far as commentary teams go, I like announcers that feel like they're talking to me instead of yelling stuff at me. The Gorilla Monsoon/Jesse Ventura team was one of my favorites, along with Lance Russell/Dave Brown.

I also have soft spots for the early-1990s WCW announce teams. Any combo of Jim Ross, Tony Schiavone, and Jesse Ventura from that era was great to me.

I also recall Lance Russell having really good chemistry in a brief run announcing with Michael Hayes and Jimmy Garvin on one of the WCW B shows (I think it was Pro?) in 1990.

Modern day Tony Schiavone is so heartwarming to see. The redemption story of someone who was so unmotivated to be in wrestling, especially as he saw WCW collapse, and then spent two decades away, to the point where now he seems like he's having so much fun, it's hard not to like the guy.

[Curt McGirt]

It stuns me when I hear early Vince back in the '70s and can tolerate him. I hated that dude all through the '90s and when I found out he was not just annoying but a big jerk businessman after he screwed my hero Bret Hart then I hated him even more. He's actually fine on commentary in-character as Mr. McMahon in comparison to the bellowing, chuckling irritation machine of the early '90s.

But at least he was never Todd Pettingill I guess

[Infinit]

Lance with the Freebirds was a realllllly fun team on WCW Pro...good call!

I'm also a big fan of the Jim Ross/Bob Caudle team from their run doing NWA Pro.

[LoneWolf&Subs]

2 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

But at least he was never Todd Pettingill I guess

I see him and other unfunny comedic personalities on WWF TV in the 90’s as different shades of the real Vince.